Author Topic: Show us your mains waveform!  (Read 26575 times)

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Offline nfmaxTopic starter

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #150 on: June 02, 2020, 05:52:25 pm »
It's got so bad that my trusty old Fluke 79 Series II - average responding, sine wave RMS calibrated - reads distinctly different from my true RMS meters, and it's not out of calibration on a true sine wave.
 

Offline Pawelr98

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #151 on: June 04, 2020, 01:08:52 pm »
I have TN-C mains so my ground and neutral are one wire.
No need for a differential probe to measure mains.
10X probe directly to live wire on my single channel S1-107 analog scope.
And before you ask, I know the dangers of direct mains measurement, I use an isolated 230V supply for most stuff.

Nominal 230V 50Hz at 14:30.
200V/Division

Usual flat-top waveform but one can notice some small distortions here and there.
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #152 on: June 04, 2020, 04:36:13 pm »
Here is my (at my work, Kyiv, Ukraine, quarantine, so power grid is low loaded) at attachment. It was a little worse (more flat) before quarantine.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 04:38:04 pm by Vovk_Z »
 

Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #153 on: June 06, 2020, 06:09:04 pm »
 Checking your mains supply waveform can be done quite nicely and safely using an old low voltage AC output wallwart transformer (7.5vac being typical of the breed used to power the older domestic ethernet hubs and switches of two decades back - 99% of which can be safely powered off a 6 to 15vdc smpsu wallwart with a suitable wattage rating).

 Unless they're very Chinese (draw in excess of a couple of watts unloaded), even a modest level of saturation current, due to not quite sufficient copper being splurged on its primary, won't visibly add to the apparent clipping of the mains waveform as I discovered after witnessing this for the first time some 15 years ago on the "1 volt 50Hz" calibration source of an ancient (as in probably produced a year or five before I was even conceived) 5MHz CRT oscilloscope when I kicked the APC SmartUPS2000 onto battery power (pulled its mains plug - it was supplying backup power for my basement radio shack and workshop, including the boat anchor 'scope and I wanted to check out how close to a true sine wave my UPS was courtesy of this 1v calibration secondary winding on the CRO's mains transformer).

 What I'd witnessed was a flat top with a slight downslope on the raw mains supply which was swapped to a perfect sine wave when the UPS was kicked into circuit. On close inspection I could discern the 5KHz PWM ripple but, other than that, it was a perfect example of what I'd naively expected our 240v 50Hz mains supply to look like. :-[ :palm:

 I repeated this test using a newly acquired laptop and a 6VA 12vac 500mA BT wallwart to provide a galvanically isolated copy of the mains waveform feeding a simple resistor attenuator network to reduce it to circa half a volt to feed into the line input on the laptop. I used CoolEdit Pro to record several minutes of the mains waveform both direct and from the UPS whilst on battery power alone or powered from its charging brick (which, afaicr, made little, if any difference).

 In this case, I also noted the same down-sloping flat top that I'd seen with that ancient boat anchor CRO which I'd assumed to be the actual wave shape of the mains supply until finally acquiring a second oscilloscope around 18 months  ago.

 The difference being that unlike the boat anchor I'd bought just over 40 years ago from a local government surplus dealer (long since retired) for something like 30 to 50 quid, this was a brand spanking new SDS1202X-E for way less in real terms of what I couldn't afford to pay for a 2nd hand Tektronix boat anchor with a modest 50MHz (possibly just 25MHz) bandwidth rating. Suffice to say that the totally flat topped (no slope at all) came as a bit of a puzzle until I switched to ac coupled mode and saw once again the same trace as I'd seen on the CRO and the recorded waveforms captured via an ac coupled sound card.

 The lesson is clear. For those who have a suitable sine wave output UPS to hand, compare the mains power against the UPS power traces and FFT spectrum plots. Unless you're powering your garden shed workshop via a hundred metre extension, it's unlikely you'll be able to discern any contribution made by even the biggest and baddest of desktop gaming computers using an older non-PFC corrected ATX psu. Virtually all of that 'distortion' comes from the supply grid itself.

 When I initially saw that distortion on my ancient CRO's 1v 'calibration' source, my first thought had been the effect of the 170 odd watts powering it causing the flat top distortion effect. This misconception was immediately dispelled the moment I transferred the power source to the UPS. My similar suspicion over that 6VA BT wallwart transformer being likewise dispelled when I repeated the mains versus UPS test CoolEdit Pro recording sessions.

 Further to this, I re-ran such a mains versus (other thing) test just over a year ago, where the 'other thing' was a cheap Liddle 1000W inverter genset which gives out a perfect 230v sine wave. If you happen to possess an emergency inverter genset but no sinewave output UPS (unlikely I know  ;) ), you'll still be able to compare your local mains supply against a much purer source of 50/60 Hz power as a sanity check on what your 'scope (CRO or DSO) is telling you even if using the low cost safety option of a low voltage isolating mains transformer which might otherwise leave you second guessing about its effect on the purity of the waveform.

 Whilst it's true that most mains transformers will start attenuating the higher odd order harmonics (say from the 9th onwards), this will have little effect on the quite visible distortion typically displayed on 'scope traces of most domestic mains voltage supplies.

[EDIT 2020-06-07]

 I managed to track down those CoolEdit Pro recordings I'd made of the mains voltage wave form way back in 2009 (not quite as far back as I'd thought). I've attached a few cutdown examples which you can open in a decent audio editor, such as CoolEdit Pro or Audacity, which will display the audio waveform quite nicely (especially so with CEP).

 Just bear in mind the 4 to 8Hz HPF effect from the sound card's line input pathway to its ADC on the 'flat topping' which gives rise to the downward slope on positive peaks (vice-versa for negative peaks), simulating what you'd typically see on a modern DSO switched to AC coupled mode.

PS. The second file shows the over-volting effect of trying to filter the HF cogging effect of the stator winding slots by connecting a 15uF capacitor across the generator's output. I'd not anticipated this effect and had set the recording level optimally with absolutely no margin to cater for these events which caused the clipping at FSD (rather than in the line input buffer amp driving the ADC).

  :rant:  I only mention this fine distinction because I'd never been able to track down a single PCI soundcard that did not clip in the line input buffer amp some 2.5dB below the actual FSD limit as result of the idiot manufacturers just blindly following the sound chip manufacturers' reference circuit, complete with the 6dB sensitivity reduction option[1] unsuited to a unipolar biased buffer amp fed from only a single 5v supply rail. As you can see, I still hold a grudge against these manufacturing idiots.

[1] An option provided to lower the noise floor in the resulting digitised audio, given a buffer amp with sufficient output voltage swing capability (i.e an opamp fed off a bipolar supply of +/-5 to 12 volts or an amp fed off the +12v supply rail).

PPS. I added a screenshot showing a section from that 5 second clip in CoolEdit Pro.

PPPS. I found that 12vac 500mA BT wallwart I'd originally used to record those audio samples and used it to get a 'scope trace capture which I've added to the list of attached files (SDS00288.png)

PPPPS. I've just noticed how much worse that 'scope screenshot looks (more trapezoidal than sine). It's just possible that doing an auto-calibrate routine (7 or 8 minutes afaicr) might improve the looks of the trace seeing as the DC coupled option relies on two signal paths being blended together in the correct proportions to properly fake the equivalent of a DC to 200MHz amplifier response. In the case of a pure sine wave, it wouldn't make much difference to the wave shape but in this case (a flat topped sine wave) it might well do given enough drift in the gain of the DC and AC pathways.

 I've appended yet another four DSO screen shots after running the auto-calibrate routine. It doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference. The oddball shift in the trigger point seems to be due to my messing with the acquisition options which, as usual, left the display in a rather shaky state until I fiddled some more with that troublesome acquisition menu having, as I'd mistakenly thought, restored it back to normal. Understandably, the acquisition options aren't a feature I'd like to interact with without a good compelling reason to do so. |O


JBG
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 03:18:12 am by Johnny B Good »
John
 
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Offline dcac

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #154 on: July 09, 2020, 11:38:37 pm »
Tested my new Micsig DP20003 differential probe and I am a bit surprised how clean the mains look here in the south of Sweden. The rather limited fft ability of my 1054z oscilloscope shows odd harmonics especially at 250hz and up. But overall it look much more sinusoidal than I expected.





« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 08:45:03 am by dcac »
 

Offline dcac

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2020, 01:12:34 am »
Same probe as above but using a Picoscope 2202.

1020306-0

1020302-1
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #156 on: July 10, 2020, 01:18:06 am »

Wonder if Covid is affecting the mains waveform?  -  less power use?
 

Offline dcac

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #157 on: July 10, 2020, 01:26:31 am »
There might be something to that - though Sweden hasn't closed down much  - but also it's late at night here right now so usage is probably low cause of that. I'll test again over the coming days and see if there's any difference.

 

Offline dcac

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #158 on: July 10, 2020, 08:29:03 am »
Same measurement but at 10:15 so more people using power and more of the industry should be running now too. Slight noticeable change on the sine wave but I think I should've used higher fft resolution to easily see the difference there.

[ Specified attachment is not available ]

1020426-1

« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 04:55:40 pm by dcac »
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #159 on: July 10, 2020, 12:14:07 pm »
FWIW here is what our "mains" (we don't call it that here, don't know if we have such an elegantly "plain and simple" designation for our power supply) voltage looks like:

-cliff knight-

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Offline dcac

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #160 on: July 11, 2020, 12:25:23 am »
Just adding the sine wave graph that should've been in my previous post but got rejected by nasty forum picture posting bug.

1020974-0
 

Offline dcac

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #161 on: July 11, 2020, 01:38:18 am »
This graph was captured tonight so probably at rather low power consumption - though my household was consuming about 4 KW, probably from some heating and the dishwasher drying cycle, but probably mostly resistive loads anyway.

1021018-0
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 01:44:17 am by dcac »
 

Offline dcac

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #162 on: July 11, 2020, 01:40:14 am »
And this graph was capture at 10:47 previous today and shows noticeable more distortion - still my household was only consuming about 1.2 KW at that time. So I think the distortion is coming from outside.

1021014-0
 

Offline dcac

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #163 on: July 11, 2020, 01:50:00 am »
And the nasty forum picture posting bug strikes again even though I only has one pic/post. Had to re-upload the graph from tonight - it is correct right now but question is how long it will stay that way.


EDIT: just trying to post the correct capture from 10:47.

1021868-0
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 02:34:11 pm by dcac »
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #164 on: July 12, 2020, 05:29:24 pm »
And the nasty forum picture posting bug strikes again even though I only has one pic/post. Had to re-upload the graph from tonight - it is correct right now but question is how long it will stay that way.


EDIT: just trying to post the correct capture from 10:47.

(Attachment Link)

Looking at your graphs and comparing them to mine is interesting. Mine are taken just west of Stockholm, in a residential area. And both yours and mine look much better than the ones from abroad...

Offline drussell

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #165 on: July 16, 2020, 02:03:44 am »
...
And both yours and mine look much better than the ones from abroad...

How physically closely you are located and how well connected to are to your local generation and therefore how "stiff" your supply is, is by far the major factor in what your actual end-user waveform looks like...

Far more influential than your "macro" geographical location, country of origin/generation, etc.
 

Offline nfmaxTopic starter

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #166 on: July 16, 2020, 08:46:07 am »
I don't think anyone has shown any evidence that is the case. In fact I think 100% the opposite - the distortion is there on the medium voltage (11kV here) distribution network. Of course, it arises from 100,000 switch-mode power supplies spread across the land, but the actual connection from the point of measurement (i.e. the socket) to the medium voltage network makes little or no difference.

If anyone is in a position to make some proper tests, that would be great. Data is always welcome!
 

Offline Chupacabras

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #167 on: August 25, 2020, 08:22:40 pm »
This is waveform in my flat.
I was surprised by that. I expected it to be much closer to sine wave.
 

Offline cliffyk

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #168 on: August 26, 2020, 12:37:52 am »
This is waveform in my flat.
I was surprised by that. I expected it to be much closer to sine wave.

It appears clipped, as though there is some voltage limiting device in the feed or test connections...
-cliff knight-

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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #169 on: August 26, 2020, 02:11:42 am »
This is waveform in my flat.
I was surprised by that. I expected it to be much closer to sine wave.

It appears clipped, as though there is some voltage limiting device in the feed or test connections...

It looks similar to what I got, posted earlier in this thread.

 

Offline Chupacabras

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #170 on: August 26, 2020, 06:25:12 am »
This is waveform in my flat.
I was surprised by that. I expected it to be much closer to sine wave.

It appears clipped, as though there is some voltage limiting device in the feed or test connections...

It appears clipped, but it most likely is not. I see other people here posted very similar waveforms.
There is even a ltspice simulation in this forum that shows it could be caused by bridge rectifiers.
 

Offline AnasMalas

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2020, 11:29:45 am »
Here's mine over here in Jordan. I must admit that it was directly probed with two channels, which I know isnt safe, wont be doing it again lol. I didnt single shot capture it to get a smooth line, because I didnt want to touch the scope more than was absolutely necessary

ignore the background waveform, that's the switching power supply of my monitor, and the reason I even did this.
 

Offline duckduck

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #172 on: August 12, 2021, 05:04:25 pm »
Necro-posting.  >:D

Mains -> Migsig DP10013 (500X mode)-> Rigol DS1202Z-E
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 05:06:13 pm by duckduck »
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #173 on: August 12, 2021, 09:06:37 pm »
Necro-posting.  >:D

Mains -> Migsig DP10013 (500X mode)-> Rigol DS1202Z-E

Could look better. Indeed.

Offline orb

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Re: Show us your mains waveform!
« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2023, 02:01:37 pm »
Necro-posting.  >:D

Me too.

Owon hds2102s.

230V~ + hv probe "hantek t3100" (100:1):


transformer 230 -> 12V~ + probe "owon ow3100" (10:1):
I came here for a while.
 


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