Author Topic: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation  (Read 40090 times)

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Offline robintTopic starter

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Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« on: November 07, 2023, 05:59:05 pm »
I'd like to start a thread here for those informed and interested parties who may be looking at/working on this emergent technology.
I won't labour the point about the potential pros and cons here as google provides ample (mostly outrageous hype) on the subject.

These 18650 Lion look-alike cells have become available to home-shedders on AliX

Here is a User test vid from a respected source


to wet your whistle.

I am setting up my test bench and kit to subject these cells to performance testing and hope to present results here

Anyone else wish to join in and collaborate :-+

Notice a lot of naysayers pooh pooh yada yada  4x price, half capacity, 2x weight yet BYD (one of the largest EV auto makers) has already brought a car to market AWS.

What I like

@120Wh/kg (could be 200) its 1/4 weight of a LAB
Sodium Ion green plentiful chemistry
SIBs much safer, no thermal runaway, no noxious chemicals released
Current price of 100Ah 24v same as LAB but half size 1/4 weight 20kg vs 80kg
up to 3000 cycles (claimed) vs 500 cycles LAB
No complex BMS needed
Straight discharge curve 4-2v = 100-0% SOC easy to determine as a fuel tank gauge
Operates down to -40C (Lion 0C warning battery must be self heated)
Steel casing - very robust - no swelling

If it seems too good to be true - then more work needed :-//

OBTW Faradian - a British frontline developer has just been bought out by Reliance India - a huge corporate with deep pockets - could give PRC Hina serious competition.

You can be sure you wont win if you dont place a bet

Robin - Players please






 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2023, 06:49:08 pm »
Kind of Bizarre that these are being sold through normal channels with the true manufacturer hidden (Hakadi obviously isn't). Sodium Ion chemistries even from Chinese and Indian manufacturers seem quite diverse, would be interesting to know where these are really from.

The massive increase of energy density compared to Aquion is impressive, but I'm still not optimistic about the chances of this for now. When net zero gets closer and fast charging stations start becoming impossible to operate without their own storage, that's when sodium ion will shine IMO.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2023, 06:51:35 pm by Marco »
 

Offline robintTopic starter

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2023, 07:22:48 pm »
Hmm care to share what you have found?

AliX is always a risk and often impossible to get a refund for fake goods

Havent seen SIBs on Ebay yet? 

Often these factories dump their rejects out the back door to sell to us suckers out west.  Used Lions re wrapped is a common fake for cheapo goods (some have been filled with sand :-DD

But a week is a long time in the Battery business
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Offline IanB

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2023, 08:03:01 pm »
One thing to bear in mind is that 120 Wh/kg is 432 kJ/kg. For comparison, the specific energy of gunpowder is about 3000 kJ/kg. So you can imagine, batteries with high energy density have the potential to be dangerous. The danger depends on how fast the energy can escape. For high power batteries the energy is designed to escape fast, so an accidental short can certainly produce heat and fire.
 
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Offline robintTopic starter

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2023, 08:38:32 pm »
The arc flash from sc fault can produce vapourised copper spatter that can blind you.  UV Goggles must always be worn. Joe public doesnt realise this

Think stick welder arc x 1000 >:D
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Offline Marco

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2023, 08:55:24 pm »
The discharge curve does suggest they are just rebadged low capacity lithium ion. How about gingerly cutting off the blue exterior?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2023, 09:02:37 pm by Marco »
 
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Offline deepfryed

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2023, 09:24:14 pm »
The discharge curve does suggest they are just rebadged low capacity lithium ion. How about gingerly cutting off the blue exterior?

Same, was thinking that the curve looks like Li+
 
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Offline robintTopic starter

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2023, 05:08:54 am »
The discharge curve does suggest they are just rebadged low capacity lithium ion. How about gingerly cutting off the blue exterior?

Same, was thinking that the curve looks like Li+

I dont understand Marco, the vid link I posted first from Julian showed a Hikada battery under discharge with a steep curve from ca 4V to <2V.  Thats a Sodium curve isnt it?

whats this other curve you are referring too as a fake :-//
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2023, 06:22:20 am »
Yes, I would strongly suspect these are not sodium-ion by any means. But happy to be wrong.
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2023, 06:43:36 am »
Agreed, 99% likely some failed crap factory reject li-ion cells which are just so poor quality that energy density sucks because of that. This also makes them pretty dangerous.

If you want to play around with an experimental battery chemistry, you won't get it from Ali/Ebay for cheap.
 
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Offline robintTopic starter

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2023, 11:56:22 am »
agreed, playing around with crap Lithium cells and treating to a Sodium regime is sure asking for serious bad trouble.  In the days of widespread fake Nimh cells, the rewrapping of used underweight cells was very convincing.  It got Enaloop very worried how the counterfeits were badly damaging its reputation. :box:

So Guys exposed the fraudsters, name and shame
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Offline moffy

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2023, 12:05:06 pm »
There was a recent YT video where a reviewer  purchased what was supposed to be a graphene super capacitor with extraordinary capacity, when the reviewer opened it up it was just a rebranded Li battery.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 12:16:14 pm by moffy »
 

Online tom66

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2023, 11:56:58 pm »
4V -> 2V discharge curve is actually a bit of a pain.

It would mean for many mobility applications the discharge current doubles at low SoC.  You would see many EVs having a significant ramp off in output power as the battery runs low.  Current Li-Ion in EVs generally only drops from ~4V to ~3.3-3.5V.   Discharge current at low SoC is only limited when the cells get close to the BMS's cut off voltage under discharge (cell voltage under acceleration does not want to go below ~3V).  This is somewhat impacted by temperature, with cold temperatures implying a lower cut off.  My ID.3 in 5C ambient has a 60% discharge limit at less than 10% SoC. 
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2023, 12:05:30 am »
Agreed, 99% likely some failed crap factory reject li-ion cells which are just so poor quality that energy density sucks because of that. This also makes them pretty dangerous.

If you want to play around with an experimental battery chemistry, you won't get it from Ali/Ebay for cheap.
1500mAh is a standard for low capacity high discharge rate 18650, doesn't need to be a reject.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2023, 12:11:03 am »
The discharge curve with a kink around 2.3V is not like any lithum ion cell I've seen before.   Most lithium ion cells will fall like a rock once they get below 2.8-2.9V.   I want to believe these are genuine.  If they're not lithium ion they might be repackaged LFP but those tend to have a very flat discharge curve in the middle of the discharge (even flatter than conventional li-ion).  Very odd!
 

Offline robintTopic starter

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2023, 08:52:31 am »
4V -> 2V discharge curve is actually a bit of a pain.

It would mean for many mobility applications the discharge current doubles at low SoC.  You would see many EVs having a significant ramp off in output power as the battery runs low.  Current Li-Ion in EVs generally only drops from ~4V to ~3.3-3.5V.   Discharge current at low SoC is only limited when the cells get close to the BMS's cut off voltage under discharge (cell voltage under acceleration does not want to go below ~3V).  This is somewhat impacted by temperature, with cold temperatures implying a lower cut off.  My ID.3 in 5C ambient has a 60% discharge limit at less than 10% SoC.

Good point, EV owners north of the Watford Gap are well aware of inclement weather heh heh :-DD

But as an appeal for some sanity in this rush for EVs (remember how the morally bankrupt gov went ape persuading us to go over to diesel some 10 years ago - what a disaster that was for owners.  The Power Industry at the same time warned that our generating capacity and distribution systems were woefully inadequate to supply future projected uk wide demands - notice how these cries have gone very quiet - cos the gravy train of urgent gov support and subsidies for mega infra structure up grades is rapidly approaching - loads a money guys keep shtumb.

But what I really want to emphasis is that the ultrahype of EV performance, unimaginable acceleration 0-60's <3s  - an inheritance from Fat Guts  Clarky petrol heads obsessions, needs a proper rethink.

As a young apprentice, I was able to afford to buy a preware 1935 Austin 7, flat head 750cc, 20 bhp, 3 gears 45mph AND 45mpg !!!  yes amazing. It weighed <500kg.
If you make a wish list of fit for purpose attribute for a personal conveyance and compare it with modern requirements for a city, shopping car, then its embarrassing at our profligate use of materials and demand for performance (1000bhp  :-DD  acceleration)  EVs  weigh 1500kgs, use lots of battery to heat occupants in cold weather and keep windows defrosted etc and headlights blazing in the winter gloom.  All a big concern for very limited energy capacity storage vs ICE gas guzzlers,  How does it feel in the snowy season - bit perilous stuck in a snow drift?  Electrically heated 60W blanket for survival?

Well enough naysaying , here's a bright spark  to amuse and laugh at.  Browse over to the Citroen Ami E and looks at its marvellous deisgn concept  - evey bit as brilliant as their original 2CV (for French peasants in 1935)  https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami

I am the EV Anti-Christ :-DD

Let the schwepps rain down on me from a dizzy height

BTW I parlayed with the little Macaroon to prevail upon Citroen to let the AMI have a User removeable battery system (sort of caddy on wheels?)so that you replace them with a fully charged packed (2x 24v 200Ah  ca 15kg each) either at home or your local filling station - hence solving the problem of charging a city car in the city |O
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Offline Psi

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2023, 09:00:10 am »
Yes, I would strongly suspect these are not sodium-ion by any means. But happy to be wrong.

My thoughts exactly.

Seems more likely someone is rebranding Lion cells as Sodium Ion to get people excided and cause a rush in orders,   rather than them actually being new sodium ion cells with those specs.

But yeah, i would also be very happy to be wrong.

Usually when new battery tech actually goes into production they have big customers lining up to order their entire production capacity and they don't find their way onto the open market for a while.
That being said, its possible these are pre-production/test-runs of sodium ion cells. Factory trash loves to find its way onto aliexpress.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 09:04:47 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
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Offline robintTopic starter

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2023, 04:03:08 pm »
Isnt it remarkably suspicious that not a single SIB is offered on Fleabay?  That platform is buyer centric and its way too easy to get your money back on blatant fraud and couterfeit.  No problem :popcorn:
AliX you can whistle for a refund, or go through your credit card procedure - very hard work and it reflects on your rating BTW :scared:
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Offline mikerj

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2023, 05:19:47 pm »
Well enough naysaying , here's a bright spark  to amuse and laugh at.  Browse over to the Citroen Ami E and looks at its marvellous deisgn concept  - evey bit as brilliant as their original 2CV (for French peasants in 1935)  https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami

The original 1935 2CV could best 28mph and carry four people, so doesn't seem that brilliant tbh.  It's a less useful version of a Smart ForTwo EV, for city use only.
 

Offline robintTopic starter

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2023, 05:34:23 pm »
Must be why they sold over a million before finally closing the plant down july 1990 after 41 years with only cosmetic changes.  2V 600cc did 55mph eventually  gave >60mpg. Designed to travel over a ploughed field without breaking a tray of eggs.  BTW average speed in London is 16mph :-DD.  And Wales only allows 20mph - you are just not paying attention :box:
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Offline IanB

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2023, 08:27:03 pm »
Must be why they sold over a million before finally closing the plant down july 1990 after 41 years with only cosmetic changes.  2V 600cc did 55mph eventually  gave >60mpg.

The 2CV6 had a 602 cc air cooled twin and could reach 69 mph. It was really fun to drive (I used to own one).
 
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Offline robintTopic starter

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2023, 11:55:10 pm »
Wow that was a souped up fuel injected NOX one then. :-DD Glad someone else appreciates the engineering excellence of the Tin Snail.

And now I want to see the AMI e  hacked and upgraded - its already been done by Citroen but they are a bit secretive about it - doubled the battery size - maybe gone from 48v to 60v.  Now that would be a mover around town and maybe 80mile range vs 40.  Just wait till next spring. :-+  Here comes my PimpAmie suitably wrapped
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Offline moffy

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2023, 11:55:17 pm »
The nail test on a purportedly Sodium Ion battery, please excuse the bad language:
 
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2023, 10:06:21 pm »
Must be why they sold over a million before finally closing the plant down july 1990 after 41 years with only cosmetic changes.  2V 600cc did 55mph eventually  gave >60mpg. Designed to travel over a ploughed field without breaking a tray of eggs.  BTW average speed in London is 16mph :-DD.  And Wales only allows 20mph - you are just not paying attention :box:

You seem to be reinforcing my point, the 2CV is vastly superior to the Citroen Ami toy car.  No one with their mental faculties in working order would choose to live in London either.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 10:08:09 pm by mikerj »
 
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Offline Craig

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Re: Sodium Ion Battery evaluation
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2023, 01:16:59 am »
I don't know if the HAKADI Brand is a no-name. It would appear Hakadi is the brand name of Selian Energy (Shenzhen Zhonghuajia Technology Co. Ltd.)

I have requested a datasheet from them for the 18650, 1500mAh cell:
18650E-1500

I see Selian Energy has just sent some larger SIB format cells to Julian Ilett:

(Posted yesterday on YouTube)
 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2023, 01:23:11 am by Craig »
 
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