Sodium Ion Battery evaluation

[robint]

I'd like to start a thread here for those informed and interested parties who may be looking at/working on this emergent technology.
I won't labour the point about the potential pros and cons here as google provides ample (mostly outrageous hype) on the subject.

These 18650 Lion look-alike cells have become available to home-shedders on AliX

Here is a User test vid from a respected source


to wet your whistle.

I am setting up my test bench and kit to subject these cells to performance testing and hope to present results here

Anyone else wish to join in and collaborate

Notice a lot of naysayers pooh pooh yada yada  4x price, half capacity, 2x weight yet BYD (one of the largest EV auto makers) has already brought a car to market AWS.

What I like

@120Wh/kg (could be 200) its 1/4 weight of a LAB
Sodium Ion green plentiful chemistry
SIBs much safer, no thermal runaway, no noxious chemicals released
Current price of 100Ah 24v same as LAB but half size 1/4 weight 20kg vs 80kg
up to 3000 cycles (claimed) vs 500 cycles LAB
No complex BMS needed
Straight discharge curve 4-2v = 100-0% SOC easy to determine as a fuel tank gauge
Operates down to -40C (Lion 0C warning battery must be self heated)
Steel casing - very robust - no swelling

If it seems too good to be true - then more work needed

OBTW Faradian - a British frontline developer has just been bought out by Reliance India - a huge corporate with deep pockets - could give PRC Hina serious competition.

You can be sure you wont win if you dont place a bet

Robin - Players please






 

[Marco]

Kind of Bizarre that these are being sold through normal channels with the true manufacturer hidden (Hakadi obviously isn't). Sodium Ion chemistries even from Chinese and Indian manufacturers seem quite diverse, would be interesting to know where these are really from.

The massive increase of energy density compared to Aquion is impressive, but I'm still not optimistic about the chances of this for now. When net zero gets closer and fast charging stations start becoming impossible to operate without their own storage, that's when sodium ion will shine IMO.

[robint]

Hmm care to share what you have found?

AliX is always a risk and often impossible to get a refund for fake goods

Havent seen SIBs on Ebay yet? 

Often these factories dump their rejects out the back door to sell to us suckers out west.  Used Lions re wrapped is a common fake for cheapo goods (some have been filled with sand

But a week is a long time in the Battery business

[IanB]

One thing to bear in mind is that 120 Wh/kg is 432 kJ/kg. For comparison, the specific energy of gunpowder is about 3000 kJ/kg. So you can imagine, batteries with high energy density have the potential to be dangerous. The danger depends on how fast the energy can escape. For high power batteries the energy is designed to escape fast, so an accidental short can certainly produce heat and fire.

[robint]

The arc flash from sc fault can produce vapourised copper spatter that can blind you.  UV Goggles must always be worn. Joe public doesnt realise this

Think stick welder arc x 1000

[Marco]

The discharge curve does suggest they are just rebadged low capacity lithium ion. How about gingerly cutting off the blue exterior?

[deepfryed]

The discharge curve does suggest they are just rebadged low capacity lithium ion. How about gingerly cutting off the blue exterior?

Same, was thinking that the curve looks like Li+

[robint]

The discharge curve does suggest they are just rebadged low capacity lithium ion. How about gingerly cutting off the blue exterior?

Same, was thinking that the curve looks like Li+

I dont understand Marco, the vid link I posted first from Julian showed a Hikada battery under discharge with a steep curve from ca 4V to <2V.  Thats a Sodium curve isnt it?

whats this other curve you are referring too as a fake

[SiliconWizard]

Yes, I would strongly suspect these are not sodium-ion by any means. But happy to be wrong.

[Siwastaja]

Agreed, 99% likely some failed crap factory reject li-ion cells which are just so poor quality that energy density sucks because of that. This also makes them pretty dangerous.

If you want to play around with an experimental battery chemistry, you won't get it from Ali/Ebay for cheap.

[robint]

agreed, playing around with crap Lithium cells and treating to a Sodium regime is sure asking for serious bad trouble.  In the days of widespread fake Nimh cells, the rewrapping of used underweight cells was very convincing.  It got Enaloop very worried how the counterfeits were badly damaging its reputation.

So Guys exposed the fraudsters, name and shame

[moffy]

There was a recent YT video where a reviewer  purchased what was supposed to be a graphene super capacitor with extraordinary capacity, when the reviewer opened it up it was just a rebranded Li battery.

[tom66]

4V -> 2V discharge curve is actually a bit of a pain.

It would mean for many mobility applications the discharge current doubles at low SoC.  You would see many EVs having a significant ramp off in output power as the battery runs low.  Current Li-Ion in EVs generally only drops from ~4V to ~3.3-3.5V.   Discharge current at low SoC is only limited when the cells get close to the BMS's cut off voltage under discharge (cell voltage under acceleration does not want to go below ~3V).  This is somewhat impacted by temperature, with cold temperatures implying a lower cut off.  My ID.3 in 5C ambient has a 60% discharge limit at less than 10% SoC. 

[wraper]

Agreed, 99% likely some failed crap factory reject li-ion cells which are just so poor quality that energy density sucks because of that. This also makes them pretty dangerous.

If you want to play around with an experimental battery chemistry, you won't get it from Ali/Ebay for cheap.

1500mAh is a standard for low capacity high discharge rate 18650, doesn't need to be a reject.

[tom66]

The discharge curve with a kink around 2.3V is not like any lithum ion cell I've seen before.   Most lithium ion cells will fall like a rock once they get below 2.8-2.9V.   I want to believe these are genuine.  If they're not lithium ion they might be repackaged LFP but those tend to have a very flat discharge curve in the middle of the discharge (even flatter than conventional li-ion).  Very odd!

[robint]

4V -> 2V discharge curve is actually a bit of a pain.

It would mean for many mobility applications the discharge current doubles at low SoC.  You would see many EVs having a significant ramp off in output power as the battery runs low.  Current Li-Ion in EVs generally only drops from ~4V to ~3.3-3.5V.   Discharge current at low SoC is only limited when the cells get close to the BMS's cut off voltage under discharge (cell voltage under acceleration does not want to go below ~3V).  This is somewhat impacted by temperature, with cold temperatures implying a lower cut off.  My ID.3 in 5C ambient has a 60% discharge limit at less than 10% SoC.

Good point, EV owners north of the Watford Gap are well aware of inclement weather heh heh

But as an appeal for some sanity in this rush for EVs (remember how the morally bankrupt gov went ape persuading us to go over to diesel some 10 years ago - what a disaster that was for owners.  The Power Industry at the same time warned that our generating capacity and distribution systems were woefully inadequate to supply future projected uk wide demands - notice how these cries have gone very quiet - cos the gravy train of urgent gov support and subsidies for mega infra structure up grades is rapidly approaching - loads a money guys keep shtumb.

But what I really want to emphasis is that the ultrahype of EV performance, unimaginable acceleration 0-60's <3s  - an inheritance from Fat Guts  Clarky petrol heads obsessions, needs a proper rethink.

As a young apprentice, I was able to afford to buy a preware 1935 Austin 7, flat head 750cc, 20 bhp, 3 gears 45mph AND 45mpg !!!  yes amazing. It weighed <500kg.
If you make a wish list of fit for purpose attribute for a personal conveyance and compare it with modern requirements for a city, shopping car, then its embarrassing at our profligate use of materials and demand for performance (1000bhp    acceleration)  EVs  weigh 1500kgs, use lots of battery to heat occupants in cold weather and keep windows defrosted etc and headlights blazing in the winter gloom.  All a big concern for very limited energy capacity storage vs ICE gas guzzlers,  How does it feel in the snowy season - bit perilous stuck in a snow drift?  Electrically heated 60W blanket for survival?

Well enough naysaying , here's a bright spark  to amuse and laugh at.  Browse over to the Citroen Ami E and looks at its marvellous deisgn concept  - evey bit as brilliant as their original 2CV (for French peasants in 1935)  https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami

I am the EV Anti-Christ

Let the schwepps rain down on me from a dizzy height

BTW I parlayed with the little Macaroon to prevail upon Citroen to let the AMI have a User removeable battery system (sort of caddy on wheels?)so that you replace them with a fully charged packed (2x 24v 200Ah  ca 15kg each) either at home or your local filling station - hence solving the problem of charging a city car in the city

[Psi]

Yes, I would strongly suspect these are not sodium-ion by any means. But happy to be wrong.

My thoughts exactly.

Seems more likely someone is rebranding Lion cells as Sodium Ion to get people excided and cause a rush in orders,   rather than them actually being new sodium ion cells with those specs.

But yeah, i would also be very happy to be wrong.

Usually when new battery tech actually goes into production they have big customers lining up to order their entire production capacity and they don't find their way onto the open market for a while.
That being said, its possible these are pre-production/test-runs of sodium ion cells. Factory trash loves to find its way onto aliexpress.

[robint]

Isnt it remarkably suspicious that not a single SIB is offered on Fleabay?  That platform is buyer centric and its way too easy to get your money back on blatant fraud and couterfeit.  No problem
AliX you can whistle for a refund, or go through your credit card procedure - very hard work and it reflects on your rating BTW

[mikerj]

Well enough naysaying , here's a bright spark  to amuse and laugh at.  Browse over to the Citroen Ami E and looks at its marvellous deisgn concept  - evey bit as brilliant as their original 2CV (for French peasants in 1935)  https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami

The original 1935 2CV could best 28mph and carry four people, so doesn't seem that brilliant tbh.  It's a less useful version of a Smart ForTwo EV, for city use only.

[robint]

Must be why they sold over a million before finally closing the plant down july 1990 after 41 years with only cosmetic changes.  2V 600cc did 55mph eventually  gave >60mpg. Designed to travel over a ploughed field without breaking a tray of eggs.  BTW average speed in London is 16mph .  And Wales only allows 20mph - you are just not paying attention

[IanB]

Must be why they sold over a million before finally closing the plant down july 1990 after 41 years with only cosmetic changes.  2V 600cc did 55mph eventually  gave >60mpg.

The 2CV6 had a 602 cc air cooled twin and could reach 69 mph. It was really fun to drive (I used to own one).

[robint]

Wow that was a souped up fuel injected NOX one then. Glad someone else appreciates the engineering excellence of the Tin Snail.

And now I want to see the AMI e  hacked and upgraded - its already been done by Citroen but they are a bit secretive about it - doubled the battery size - maybe gone from 48v to 60v.  Now that would be a mover around town and maybe 80mile range vs 40.  Just wait till next spring.   Here comes my PimpAmie suitably wrapped

[moffy]

The nail test on a purportedly Sodium Ion battery, please excuse the bad language:
 

[mikerj]

Must be why they sold over a million before finally closing the plant down july 1990 after 41 years with only cosmetic changes.  2V 600cc did 55mph eventually  gave >60mpg. Designed to travel over a ploughed field without breaking a tray of eggs.  BTW average speed in London is 16mph .  And Wales only allows 20mph - you are just not paying attention

You seem to be reinforcing my point, the 2CV is vastly superior to the Citroen Ami toy car.  No one with their mental faculties in working order would choose to live in London either.

[Craig]

I don't know if the HAKADI Brand is a no-name. It would appear Hakadi is the brand name of Selian Energy (Shenzhen Zhonghuajia Technology Co. Ltd.)

I have requested a datasheet from them for the 18650, 1500mAh cell:
18650E-1500

I see Selian Energy has just sent some larger SIB format cells to Julian Ilett:

(Posted yesterday on YouTube)
 

[5U4GB]

Kind of Bizarre that these are being sold through normal channels with the true manufacturer hidden (Hakadi obviously isn't). Sodium Ion chemistries even from Chinese and Indian manufacturers seem quite diverse, would be interesting to know where these are really from.

And whether they really are Na-ion batteries or just rebadged Li-ion laptop pulls.  If it's Aliexpress I'd expect the latter, I guess you can use them to power your $14.95 128TB SSDs.

[Psi]

Be interested to see someone taking one apart and doing some chemical tests to confirm lithium or sodium

[IanB]

Be interested to see someone taking one apart and doing some chemical tests to confirm lithium or sodium

A simple test would be the weight of the cell. Sodium is over 3x heavier than lithium, so when comparing two cells of similar capacity, I would expect the sodium ion cell to weigh more.

[robint]

there's only a microscopic amount of alkali metal in these batteries, obtw I see Libs use an Aluminium can vs Lipofe use a steel can

[IanB]

there's only a microscopic amount of alkali metal in these batteries, obtw I see Libs use an Aluminium can vs Lipofe use a steel can

The size of microscope you need depends on how good your eyesight is 

A 2600 mAh lithium ion cell would contain about 0.7 g of lithium. The same capacity sodium ion cell would contain about 2.3 g of sodium.

Granted, a difference of 1.6 g in a cell weighing about 45 g is not going to be very easy to spot against statistical variation between different lithium cells, but we can at least say that a cell that is lighter than average is unlikely to be a sodium ion cell.

[IanB]

What about variations in cell wall thickness, end cap thickness, electrolyte density/fill ratio, cathode loading? Why would you assume those are all the same between two random cells?

I wouldn't. Which is why I said I wouldn't in the post above.

[robint]

Ladies behave, we seek to add to our fund of knowledge not watch cat fights

[Psi]

Someone send one to Nilered to check   

[IanB]

Someone send one to Nilered to check   

If you are prepared to destroy a cell or two, it is possibly not that hard to check. Lithium shows a characteristic crimson-red color in a flame test, while sodium has the unmistakable orange color of low pressure sodium lamps.

So if you hold a small piece of battery electrode material in a gas flame and you see a strong orange color, then it is probably sodium. But if instead you see a bright red color, then it is lithium. I don't know if lithium and sodium may be mixed in the same cell, but the sodium color is so strong it hides other colors. So if you see orange, there is sodium.

(It goes without saying, if you do dismantle a cell, make sure it is thoroughly discharged first, otherwise you may get a very different kind of flame.)

[SiliconWizard]

Yes, and obviously the base thing to look at is the BMS (if there's any inside the cells, which I rather hope there would). Should give you a pointer or two as well...
Speaking of which, I'm not completely discarding the idea that they may have put a BMS (if again there is any) in there that is modified to make the cell, from the user's POV, look like something else than Li-ion, while in fact it would just be Li-ion.

[5U4GB]

A 2600 mAh lithium ion cell would contain about 0.7 g of lithium. The same capacity sodium ion cell would contain about 2.3 g of sodium.

Granted, a difference of 1.6 g in a cell weighing about 45 g is not going to be very easy to spot against statistical variation between different lithium cells, but we can at least say that a cell that is lighter than average is unlikely to be a sodium ion cell.

In theory the way to do it would be to weigh (say) ten cells of each type, which would both magnify the difference in weight and smooth out any slight irregularities.  However I'm still not sure whether this would be valid, you'd then also need to weigh batches of ten Li-Ion cells from different manufacturers to make sure the intra-cell-type variations don't outweigh the inter-cell-type variations.

[Craig]

I've obtained a couple of the 18650-1500mAh cells from Hakadi.

This is a discharge test. It appears to correspond to the datasheet.

[robint]

many thanx, can you provide a charge test at say 1C
IMHO that looks like a very distinctive curve and easy to determine the DOD (4V to 2.5V) unlike the Lifepo which is substantially flat and needs a very accurate coulomb counter - big disadvantage.

Impressive, pls keep us informed of progress

Robin

[ROFLhoff]

I've bought some SIB as well back in November. Took about 2 weeks to get to the states.

I used this vendor on Alibaba and bought several of their "1300mAh" 18650 cells, and "10Ah" 33140 cells.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/18650-sodium-ion-battery-3-1V_1600389785267.html?spm=a2700.shop_plgr.41413.6.7c0244c37lsHxY
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Sib-32140-sodium-ion-battery-3V_1600860472916.html?spm=a2700.shop_plgr.41413.13.7c0244c3wfDeR3

I used an Atorch DL24 tester to characterize the 18650 cells. I made a custom charging board in the past (project linked on my hackaday.io account) and used it for the 18650 cells. I will seek out a better charger for the larger cells since I do want to perform 1C charging and characterizing.

As noted in my images, I am charging these cells at 1C (1300mA), using 0.1C (but more like 146mA in practice) as my cutoff, and discharging at 1C (1300mA) until 600mV.

This is some of the data I've gathered so far:

Note: Horizontal Axis is in Ah, not mAh

This graph is useful for people that want to roughly gauge how a cell would perform if charged to a lower voltage.
I'm curious about the upper plateau on the 4.2V and 4.3V charges. I imagine an unwanted secondary chemical reaction is happening inside the cell. It's neat to see this large increase in capacity but I do not have the equipment to run hundreds of tests quickly to measure cycle life loss at these higher voltages.

The change in slope below 800mV is due to the design of the DL24. The discharge path contains a set of series-connected power diodes and they limit the current flow at lower voltages. If I short them out, then I imagine the discharger could bring the cells to effectively ground but I would lose the reverse insertion polarity protection.


Note: Horizontal Axis is in Ah, not mAh

My setup for testing cold temps is a spare minifridge. It gets down to -1°C in the main compartment, and down to -10°C in the icebox. My battery holder rests on the floors of this fridge, so there isn't a means to keep the cells from warming up in my setup.


Note: Horizontal Axis is in Ah, not mAh

One thing I've noticed in these tests is that the cells do warm up when discharged at higher currents. Like, they rise 30°C from start to finish. This may explain the voltage rise in the 3C and 5C tests. If I could measure the energy going into the cells while charging, I could estimate coulombic efficiency. While charging at room temp, the cells barely rise in temp at 1C charge rate.



Also for the people doubting if they suspect receiving worn down lithium cells, do note that a proper SIB will not use a copper current collector for the anode. If you open a cell up and only see aluminium foil current collectors, you can be assured that you didn't receive a lithium cell. There is no need to determine if the electrolyte contains lithium salts.


I hope this information is helpful.

[robint]

WOW @ROFLhoff  That is amazing semi-pro test results.  Its quite rare to get such quality and attention to technical integrity.
Indeed that is very curious charging to 4.2, 4.3 V produces nearly 20% increase in capacity - but at what penalty (life span?)

Be interesting to see what your equivalent Charging curves reveal.  Much emphasis is placed on fast charging (for EV needs) - not my area of interest as a Solarist.

Lifepo's are already blowing away Lipos on safety and life span grounds as they become competitive.  As production lines get switched over to SiBs then their prices should tumble.  Could well happen within a year?

I wonder if SiBs will have  more reasonable cell voltage characteristics when connected in series chains (given all the complexity with cell monitoring and balancing needed for Lipos).

Current Wh/kg is only ca 50% of Lipos but BYD claims to be putting them in one of their models.  Imagine an EV where the batteries last 20 years.  EV's are already shown as needing far less regular maintenance (except tyres/brakes) - whats left to go wrong (assuming plastic components are properly made) - New driver seat after 500,000 miles

Please keep up the excellent work and keep us informed - IMHO this is groundbreaking
Robin

[robint]

this reply is cos the board doesnt yet recognise your new handle and you may not get notified yet

[ROFLhoff]

Thank you for the kind words @robint !

I am developing a BMS for future batteries based on the ISL94202. The arbitrary control on balancing voltages and FET controlling are nice. A shame the cells are so cheap and the controlling ICs are not!

[robint]

Hmm I see the development kit is £540  - ouch  but the ic is £5 - but I cant handle those flow solder pieces, not geared for it and looks so easy to screw up with my eyesight

ps

Ive followed your lead and ordered 8 x 18650s SiBs

be glad to exchange test results by PM if you wish

[tszaboo]

I've bought some SIB as well back in November. Took about 2 weeks to get to the states.

Very nice info indeed. They don't look like Li-Ion cells at all.
Did you measure the ERS and the short circuit current of the cells?

[T3sl4co1l]

What's the charging curve?

The difference between the two, is a hysteresis loop, the area of which is lost energy -- thus we can calculate total efficiency.  How it varies with dis/charge rate (internal resistance vs. electrode overpotential) will be interesting to see.

Tim

[Psi]

...@120Wh/kg (could be 200) its 1/4 weight of a LAB...
...Current price of 100Ah 24v same as LAB but half size 1/4 weight 20kg vs 80kg...
...up to 3000 cycles (claimed) vs 500 cycles LAB...

What is the LAB type cell talked about in the first post?
Google failed me trying to figured it out and even chatGPT has no idea.

Lithium Air Battery maybe?

[IanB]

What is the LAB type cell talked about in the first post?
Google failed me trying to figured it out and even chatGPT has no idea.

Lithium Air Battery maybe?

Lead acid battery?

[eneuro]

This is a discharge test. It appears to correspond to the datasheet.

I bought these batteries and I'm looking for a datasheet 

I am particularly interested in their resistance to higher temperatures and the risk of spontaneous combustion in the event of overcharging, because I would like to use them as an energy buffer to power directly the AVR controller, charged with very small a few mA currents directly from the 230VAC mains socket without a transformer using 3.9Vz Zener 1N4007 1000V diodes and a few resistors 

[Psi]

What is the LAB type cell talked about in the first post?
Google failed me trying to figured it out and even chatGPT has no idea.

Lithium Air Battery maybe?

Lead acid battery?

weird, i've only ever heard them called SLA AGM or GEL. never LAB.

[Craig]

I bought these batteries and I'm looking for a datasheet 

The datasheet should be attached to reply 14.

[tom66]

The discharge curve is really quite different to a normal LIB (stolen from BatteryU).



There is no real cliff edge like LIBs... the battery seems to run almost all the way down to zero volts.

What little I did read about SIBs suggested that they are tolerant of being fully discharged whereas LIBs will typically experience damage when cell voltage falls below 2.5V or so, and minimum discharge at low temperatures (below -10C) should be limited to around 3V/cell.  The info I found said that SIBs may even be shipped completely discharged as it makes them safer to ship that way.

[eneuro]

The info I found said that SIBs may even be shipped completely discharged as it makes them safer to ship that way.

I also heard that Na-ion can be transported completely discharged, but maybe it depends on the specific battery model because their production and chemical composition do not have to be identical?

I'm currently looking at the datasheet of the Na-ion batteries I ordered and with the help of uncle Google I managed to translate from Chinese to English something like this: 

Standard discharge method
Refers to discharging at a constant current of 0.50C to a single cell voltage of 1.50V in an environment of 25.0±3.0℃
...
Discharge cut-off voltage 1.50V+/-0.05V
...

Just quickly reviewing this PDF for the Na-ion battery model: 18650E-1500 I don't see under what conditions it could be discharged and stored at three voltages of 0V 

[Psi]

Probably just a translation thing,  if you discharge to 1.5V the amount of energy left is practically nothing anyway. And you might consider that as 'completely discharged'

[eneuro]

if you discharge to 1.5V the amount of energy left is practically nothing anyway. And you might consider that as 'completely discharged'

I do not intend to discharge below 2.7V because the ATMEL MPU (Attiny85) is to be powered directly from this battery with BOD enabled.

HAKADI Na-ion 18650 1500mAh 3V were delivered by post at a voltage of ~2.55V   

[CobraScout]

The discharge curve is really quite different to a normal LIB (stolen from BatteryU).

The info I found said that SIBs may even be shipped completely discharged as it makes them safer to ship that way.

For sure, sodium ion battery is much safer than LIBs, see our sodium battery puncture test, no fire, no explosion...

[eneuro]

The nail test on a purportedly Sodium Ion battery...

Stupid tests.

[robint]

I had disappointing results with my Hikadi Sibs 18650 1500mAh, I only got 1100MAh after 6 disch chg cycles at 1C.  Not exactly exciting performance, but maybe others will come forward with their tests - BTW I used a ZKE AP20 tester - love it.

[eneuro]

Must be why they sold over a million before finally closing the plant down july 1990 after 41 years with only cosmetic changes.  2V 600cc did 55mph eventually  gave >60mpg. Designed to travel over a ploughed field without breaking a tray of eggs.  BTW average speed in London is 16mph .  And Wales only allows 20mph - you are just not paying attention

You seem to be reinforcing my point, the 2CV is vastly superior to the Citroen Ami toy car. 

It seems that Na-ion batteries are actually used in electric cars and this is one of the reasons why I did not buy in Europe a used Dacia Spring 2021 electric car based on probably Li-ion 28kWh batteries, seeing that cars appeared on the market with Sodium-ion batteries at similar price $15k and range  Sodium-ion JAC Sodium ion Battery CAR: How Does The Sodium-Ion Battery Works:

[robint]

Hmm that Vid smells of way too much Uber Hype, wait till next year. SiBs just dont have the energy density yet to compete (ie <25% of Lions).  Lifepo looks promising, getting cheaper AWS.

[eneuro]

SiBs just dont have the energy density yet to compete (ie <25% of Lions).

Nope, Nonsense, Li-ion batteries are flammable while Na-ion does not and this is one of the main reasons why I bought Na-ion batteries for testing, because they will be charged directly from the 230VAC 50Hz at home socket.
Lithium is a hard-to-find metal on Earth and Na-ion batteries are the killer of Chinese Li-ion batteries, so it is not surprising that there will be AI-generated comments suggesting the advantage of Li-ion-based batteries in EV compared to Na-ion, but it is obvious that the future of EV is Na-ion, and Li-ion batteries will be used in devices as before, where a greater concentration of energy is needed, but the energy stored in the small Li-ion battery packs is much smaller, which eliminates the risk of very difficult to extinguish fires caused by the failure of Ev where batteries are based on Lithium and have capacity >28kWh.
YT: Lithium-ion battery fires are on the rise. Are firefighters ready?

[robint]

I do hope we can get some up to date informed opinion on this board. Re-hashing very old 2017 news is hardly helpful

[johansen]

I do hope we can get some up to date informed opinion on this board. Re-hashing very old 2017 news is hardly helpful

So far this year, the FDNY says 66 fires have been started by lithium-ion batteries, killing five people. Last year, the city saw 216 fires and six deaths related to the batteries

https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/special-reports/e-bike-battery-fires

"Published June 5, 2023
2023 deaths have already surpassed last year's.
NEW YORK (BRAIN) — More people in New York City have died so far this year because of lithium-ion battery fires than all of last year, according to recently released Fire Department of New York statistics.

Entering June, according to FDNY data, there were nine deaths, and 64 injuries attributed to fires sparked by lithium-ion batteries. So far, 65 structural and 32 non-structural fires and 97 investigations into lithium-ion battery fires have occurred."

so it looks like things really took off in 2023. this year statistically NYC will have around 20 deaths if the trend continues.