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Switching power supplies tripping GFCI
Posted by
Rachie5272
on 15 Jun, 2016 04:03
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I built a four axis CNC machine, where each motor driver has its own integral SMPS (Zeta 4 driver). For the most part it works great, but it keeps tripping the GFCI. A bit of detective work reveals each driver leaks about 1 mA to ground, and the computer running everything leaks about 0.5 mA. I'm in the US where nearly all GFCIs trip at 5 mA ±1 mA, so it's not surprising I'm having trouble with it.
What can I do to solve this? I don't know where to get a GFCI with a higher trip current, if it's even labelled. Do GFCI circuit breakers have a higher limit?
I'd simply remove the GFCI, but I think it's required by the electrical code. The machine is technically in a garage, despite being a finished space which has never held a car.
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#1 Reply
Posted by
uncle_bob
on 15 Jun, 2016 23:33
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Hi
Put it on an isolation transformer.
Bob
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#2 Reply
Posted by
tautech
on 15 Jun, 2016 23:40
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Thinking 2 possible reasons.
Faulty X/Y rated caps in the PSU.
High neutral return currents relative to the size of cabling used and related to the distance back to the neutral/earth bonding link. In NZ that's at our POE switchboard and at submain distribution boards too. If in an out-building there's usually another earth rod as well.
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#3 Reply
Posted by
Ian.M
on 16 Jun, 2016 00:22
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This is what you get for running machine tools on a domestic grade supply. I strongly suspect you have used 120V Zeta 4 drives. If you'd used 240V Zeta 4-240 drives, on a North American 240V circuit, their line filters and stray capacitance to ground would be reasonably well balanced, cancelling out most of the earth leakage.
Talk to a good local electrician. Have the make and model of your distribution board and the wire gague of the circuit to the 'garage' outlet handy.
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#4 Reply
Posted by
wraper
on 16 Jun, 2016 00:30
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I'm in the US where nearly all GFCIs trip at 5 mA ±1 mA, so it's not surprising I'm having trouble with it.
You have such options:
1) Replace GFCI with one with higher current rating.
2) Remove Y caps prom PSUs and use only one set of them externally before PSUs.
3) Replace Y caps in PSUs with some which have about 2x lower capacitance.
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#5 Reply
Posted by
Rachie5272
on 16 Jun, 2016 06:07
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A higher current GFCI would be great. Where can I find one? I've been searching for hours with no success.
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#6 Reply
Posted by
NiHaoMike
on 16 Jun, 2016 06:22
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Some AFCIs have high threshold GFCI functionality built in. Of course, then there's a possible problem of noise tripping it...
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#7 Reply
Posted by
Ian.M
on 16 Jun, 2016 06:30
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#8 Reply
Posted by
jitter
on 17 Jun, 2016 09:51
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5 mA? Really? We use 30 mA residential (as of 2005), and even then a lightning strike in the vicinity might trip them.
Don't you get nuiscance tripping all the time with only 5 mA GFCI, even without the CNC machine?
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#9 Reply
Posted by
Jeroen3
on 17 Jun, 2016 10:05
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You are most likely allowed to get an higher current gfci and make your cnc a permanent installation. Using a higher current industrial plug or permanent wiring.
Aks a local electrician.
I see that 5mA are in-socket GFCI for single personal appliance safety. You have those in europe as well for garden equipment. You can't run multiple equipment on those.
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#10 Reply
Posted by
uncle_bob
on 17 Jun, 2016 11:16
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Hi
All of the rules on what you can and can't do in a situation like this are local rules. What I can do in this town may be different than what you can do in the next town over. Either you get involved directly with the local codes office (not recommended) or spend the (maybe) $100 on having a licensed electrician take care of it.
Bob
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#11 Reply
Posted by
Photon939
on 17 Jun, 2016 14:48
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5 mA? Really? We use 30 mA residential (as of 2005), and even then a lightning strike in the vicinity might trip them.
Don't you get nuiscance tripping all the time with only 5 mA GFCI, even without the CNC machine?
It's usually never a problem unless you get some borderline faulty equipment. Even then most (older) houses in USA that I've seen use the GFCI outlets that protect one 15/20A circuit instead of one giant GFCI breaker in the power panel. That way a GFCI trip only turns off one circuit.
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#12 Reply
Posted by
jitter
on 17 Jun, 2016 15:08
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GFCIs/RCDs are limited to maximum of 4 circuits over here. That could mean one GFCI in a somewhat older house, more modern houses will need more than one.
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#13 Reply
Posted by
uncle_bob
on 17 Jun, 2016 15:12
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GFCIs/RCDs are limited to maximum of 4 circuits over here. That could mean one GFCI in a somewhat older house, more modern houses will need more than one.
Hi
In most areas here, there are parts of the house that require protection. Most of the circuits do not get a GFCI on them. Areas where water and electricity are likely to mix are the main targets (kitchen, bathroom, garage, outdoor outlets).
Bob
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#14 Reply
Posted by
Jeroen3
on 17 Jun, 2016 15:59
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Freedom Electricity Regulations are inconceivably unsafe if you ask me.
No gfci? They are mandator, all nen 1010. How many death by electrocition and fires due to electrical failure do you have over there?
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#15 Reply
Posted by
uncle_bob
on 17 Jun, 2016 16:20
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Freedom Electricity Regulations are inconceivably unsafe if you ask me.
No gfci? They are mandator, all nen 1010. How many death by electrocition and fires due to electrical failure do you have over there?
Hi
I have never heard of a problem associated with the in ceiling lighting and washer dryer type loads that are the majority of what is unprotected.
Bob
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#16 Reply
Posted by
steverino
on 18 Jun, 2016 03:08
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I'm not 100% sure about this, but if you make the plug dedicated to the cnc machine, I don't believe it has to be GFCI rated because of the garage location. You might have to swap it for a non duplex receptacle for it to be considered dedicated. If it were me, I'd swap it out without worry.
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#17 Reply
Posted by
jitter
on 18 Jun, 2016 06:37
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Freedom Electricity Regulations are inconceivably unsafe if you ask me.
No gfci? They are mandator, all nen 1010. How many death by electrocition and fires due to electrical failure do you have over there?
Hi
I have never heard of a problem associated with the in ceiling lighting and washer dryer type loads that are the majority of what is unprotected.
Bob
Neither have I, but that doesn't mean these sort of things don't happen. Rules and regulations usually only come after things go wrong. We may try to put them in place to prevent accidents (think of drones righ now), but not until serious accidents start to happen for real will people actually feel the need.
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#18 Reply
Posted by
uncle_bob
on 18 Jun, 2016 13:22
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Freedom Electricity Regulations are inconceivably unsafe if you ask me.
No gfci? They are mandator, all nen 1010. How many death by electrocition and fires due to electrical failure do you have over there?
Hi
I have never heard of a problem associated with the in ceiling lighting and washer dryer type loads that are the majority of what is unprotected.
Bob
Neither have I, but that doesn't mean these sort of things don't happen. Rules and regulations usually only come after things go wrong. We may try to put them in place to prevent accidents (think of drones righ now), but not until serious accidents start to happen for real will people actually feel the need.
Hi
Upgrading 200 million electrical systems for problems that never happen does indeed cost money. If that money could save more lives spent another way ... it's not a rational thing to do.
Bob
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#19 Reply
Posted by
jitter
on 18 Jun, 2016 15:25
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That's not how they do it. New regulations come into effect on new stuff and renovations.
I'm sitting here in an apartment, built late 1950s. It has a distribution box with two fuses. Yes, that's it (apart from the parts that are from the utility company such as the meter and the main fuse).
Now, a new apartment would probably get at least 4 circuit breakers, a RCD and a master switch.
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#20 Reply
Posted by
poorchava
on 18 Jun, 2016 15:42
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In the apartament which we are renting right now, there are 7 fuses + 1 RCD for the entire apartment. All fuses are 10A rated with the exception of the one for ceiling lights which have 6A one due to part of the wiring being old aluminum stuff.
As for the leakage, check all the caps between earth lead and anything else. 1mA of leakage is very high (that's an insulation resistance of less than 0.5 megaohm which is very low.
Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.
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#21 Reply
Posted by
Siwastaja
on 18 Jun, 2016 16:00
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The fact that 5mA GFCIs are used outside some special (think about medical) cases is news to me. In Europe, it's always 30mA, and for a good reason, it gives just as good protection but is actually usable (so it can be used, not bypassed). 5mA GFCI sounds paranoid, and unusable as 5mA leakage quickly adds up from completely normal number of perfectly normal equipment, like a few computers. "False positives" is always a real safety issue in any safety system, because it will lead to people bypassing them in one way or another. Completely unusable and broken electrical system is not something people agree with...
So, you should fix your broken electrical installation first (by installing a proper 30mA GFCI), because your CNC equipment is most likely perfectly ok.
It's hard to believe that local electrical code requires this. If it does, your options are to move somewhere else, where they have heard about this great thing called "electricity" and it can be used legally; or to break the law.
Sidestepping the issue by modifying the equipment can be a real safety or EMC issue, causing actual problems. So here we see again how false security works against real security.
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#22 Reply
Posted by
Monkeh
on 18 Jun, 2016 16:15
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The fact that 5mA GFCIs are used outside some special (think about medical) cases is news to me. In Europe, it's always 30mA, and for a good reason, it gives just as good protection but is actually usable (so it can be used, not bypassed). 5mA GFCI sounds paranoid, and unusable as 5mA leakage quickly adds up from completely normal number of perfectly normal equipment, like a few computers. "False positives" is always a real safety issue in any safety system, because it will lead to people bypassing them in one way or another. Completely unusable and broken electrical system is not something people agree with...
So, you should fix your broken electrical installation first (by installing a proper 30mA GFCI), because your CNC equipment is most likely perfectly ok.
It's hard to believe that local electrical code requires this. If it does, your options are to move somewhere else, where they have heard about this great thing called "electricity" and it can be used legally; or to break the law.
Sidestepping the issue by modifying the equipment can be a real safety or EMC issue, causing actual problems. So here we see again how false security works against real security.
A 'proper' 30mA unit is not appropriate under the code in the US. The installation is not broken. Your preconceptions may be..
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#23 Reply
Posted by
wraper
on 18 Jun, 2016 16:31
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In the apartament which we are renting right now, there are 7 fuses + 1 RCD for the entire apartment. All fuses are 10A rated with the exception of the one for ceiling lights which have 6A one due to part of the wiring being old aluminum stuff.
As for the leakage, check all the caps between earth lead and anything else. 1mA of leakage is very high (that's an insulation resistance of less than 0.5 megaohm which is very low.
Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.
1mA leakage is not very high. You can expect 0.5+ mA leakage current from computer PSU. 0.15-0.3 mA leakage is what I usually see from double insulated power plugs (which are not even grounded). My bench (PC+Monitors+test equipment) equipment together produces around 5mA leakage as measured few years ago. Should be more now as there are more equipment.
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#24 Reply
Posted by
SeanB
on 18 Jun, 2016 16:49
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As it is the USA can you not simply have 4 separate GFCI outlets next to each other, feeding the CNC using 4 separate power leads.. Supply cable is rated to supply the 20A load of 4 outlets with a 20A breaker, but the GFCI is spread out so each power supply only has a small share of the load.
USA has GFCI at point of use, not like the rest of the planet at point of supply. Thus they have 5mA units, as the leakage from a single point is less likely to add up with a single load, while the 30mA is driven more by the need to protect an entire section of a dwelling or business including the wiring in the walls and the outlets themselves from leakage.
Thus in the USA you can retrofit a GFCI onto DCC rubber wiring even if it has a leakage current of 20mA without tripping, the leakage is upstream. Do that elsewhere and it will trip almost immediately from the leakage current.