Author Topic: USB using nonstandard connectors  (Read 10913 times)

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Offline rakeshm55Topic starter

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USB using nonstandard connectors
« on: November 09, 2018, 12:25:56 pm »
I want to have a non standard connector on chassis to handle USB. From my board USB signals will be routed to front panel PCB with chassis circular data  connector.
How to do the wiring for it??
I am looking for a High Speed USB2.0  standard.

I guess I need to consider following signals
VBUS
GND
D+
D-

What to do with the braid shield of usb cable.?? Should I route it to main PCB

What for a HS USB 2.0 480mbps what kind connectors i need to consider to avoid impedance  mismatch.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 01:26:07 pm »
If you look closely at a standard USB connector you will see that the VBUS and GND contacts are longer - they are designed to make contact before the D+ and D-. This is for ESD and proper signalling purposes. Whatever connector you use would have to mimic this action.

Normally you would want a pretty good reason for deviating from standard USB connectors.
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 01:51:25 pm »
Noteworthy experience:

Had a customer who wanted to use USB to communicate to peripherals (using a noncompliant supply voltage), in an automotive environment.

They insisted on plastic circular connectors and unshielded cables (actually the cables were shielded, but that means nothing if it's not maintained throughout the connector and harness).  Mostly for cost.

We pushed back, suggesting they use a more traditional RS-485 interface, or the like.  They insisted.

Come testing day, and their peripherals are dropping like flies when hit with radiated and fast-transient (EFT) interference.

Possibly, they could've at least addressed it in software (they were running a Linux SoM), but it seems their devs never got around to it, or perhaps weren't experienced enough with Linux, or were in general too heavily loaded with other activities to address it.

We had to put the guts inside shielded enclosures, with metallic connectors tied to the cable shields.  That got it to pass several kV of EFT, more than good enough.  (It didn't need to be quite as robust as it ended up, but there was no just-good-enough option available that was cheaper.)

The customer needed a $50 module, which would've been fine otherwise.  But we ended up delivering a $200 module.

That IP66 rated EMC box sure is sexy.  It doesn't even make sense when you look at it -- the gasket feels sandy, how can it seal?  But lo and behold, it does indeed seal against dust and water, and it does indeed conduct very nicely (a couple of ohms between any pairs of points inside the enclosure).  But that price...

Tim
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Offline Gribo

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 01:53:40 pm »
There are chassis mounted round USB shells, from the usual suspects (TE, Amphenol, Samtec and others). If you also require miniature size, you are practically on your own.

Example:https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cnlinko-IP67-usb-type-a-usb_60290321922.html] [url]https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cnlinko-IP67-usb-type-a-usb_60290321922.html
[/url]
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 01:56:46 pm »
If you look closely at a standard USB connector you will see that the VBUS and GND contacts are longer - they are designed to make contact before the D+ and D-. This is for ESD and proper signalling purposes. Whatever connector you use would have to mimic this action.

Normally you would want a pretty good reason for deviating from standard USB connectors.

This.  They make IP-rated USB connectors -- pricey, basically a rubber boot molded over two ends.  Awkward as hell.  But you don't have to do any of the hard work we did and bang your head against impossible requirements.  It just works.

To actually answer the question: the shield goes to PCB ground, and GND is always* shield, so that's fine (or you can make it a pass-through, it's just a connector board, right?).  The ESD note is a good one, and adding ESD diodes on the connector board might be worthwhile (else, at the USB interface chips).  USB High Speed should be alright in a reasonable quality shielded twisted-pair cable.  Don't worry about mismatch in the connectors, they aren't long enough to matter.  You still have to obey maximum cable length restrictions.

*I haven't seen any exception to this.  I haven't read the USB standard in enough detail to know if they made note of any cases where you might want isolation between them.

Tim
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Offline ConKbot

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2018, 02:34:52 pm »
Depends on the application. Inside a PC, front panel USB2.0 is connected to a motherboard with 0.1" pitch pin headers (separate pin for grounds and shield) 10-20mm of wire that's not impedance controlled as it makes its way from the cabled bundle to the pin header. Not a high-end or really impedance matched connector in the least.  But the connector at the front of the case should be connected to the chassis, improving the shielding.    But as Tim mentioned, it can turn into a right proper mess once you get outside of the case if you neglect shielding.
 
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Offline JVR

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2018, 03:10:47 pm »
General rule of thumb: If you want to put USB through any connector cheaper than a USB connector, be prepared to pay for your sins. We build products with USB and Ethernet through LEMO connectors, with no issues, apart from price.

USB is a commodity connector, do some search and you will find one that fits the purpose.
 
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2018, 03:11:29 pm »
Begs the questions: why?

Also, instead of reinventing the wheel: what about stuff like this:

https://www.mouser.be/ProductDetail/Phoenix-Contact/1440711?qs=%2fha2pyFadujuqEyjK0QjYJD6hvVPoPjT4aT0URM7FYk%3d
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2018, 03:27:52 pm »
There are proper USB chassis connectors.
 
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Offline rakeshm55Topic starter

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2018, 10:59:37 am »
Rather than price paucity of space at front panel was the reason to go for a single data connector....i have seen some radios using circular connectors at the front panel..
.eg https://www.harris.com/solution/harris-falcon-iii-an-prc-117gv1c-multiband-networking-manpack-radio
Use a circular connector for USB i not sure they are standard USB connectors...
 

Offline bob225

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2018, 11:57:30 am »
Only thing that springs to mind is automotive usb connectors like the Molex HSautolink series

 or

https://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0847290009_IO_CONNECTORS.xml (standard usb)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 12:14:42 pm by bob225 »
 
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Offline ratio

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2018, 12:24:20 pm »
I've got several devices that use a plain old 1/8" headphone connector for USB service.
Wish I could find a cable, I really want to dump the log from one of them...
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2018, 12:38:37 pm »
I want to have a non standard connector on chassis to handle USB. From my board USB signals will be routed to front panel PCB with chassis circular data  connector.
Extremely confusing.
Is this "chassis circular data connector" INTERNAL to your gadget, or the EXTERNAL user-accessible connector?
What is the connection from the board to the internal cable?
What is the connection from the internal cable to the front panel?
What is the connection external on the front panel to the user?
How long is your internal cable path?
Why isn't grounding/shielding already part of the external user connector?

Quote
What for a HS USB 2.0 480mbps what kind connectors i need to consider to avoid impedance  mismatch.
If you look inside any of 10s of millions of computers, you will see that the USB cabling is implemented with bog-standard 0.1 inch header connectors and random wiring.  They can get away with this largely because of the short distances involved.  But shielding and grounding the external connector is critical.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2018, 03:30:02 pm »
Normally you would want a pretty good reason for deviating from standard USB connectors.
A "good reason" is to bundle some non-USB signals into the same connector. But that can also be done with additional connectors spaced a defined distance from a standard USB connector and then making a custom plug with the matching connectors at the same spacing.
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Offline 001

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2018, 03:38:53 pm »
Huh

Why USB connectors so ugly and  useless?

Why nobody use simple 3.5 4-wire male jack for USB?
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2018, 07:34:21 pm »
The main problem with using the 3.5mm connector for anything that has power is that it momentarily shorts when connected/disconnected. But it has been done - the iPod Shuffle (except the original that has a standard USB plug built in) does just that.
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Offline rakeshm55Topic starter

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2018, 04:30:41 am »

Extremely confusing.
Is this "chassis circular data connector" INTERNAL to your gadget, or the EXTERNAL user-accessible connector?
What is the connection from the board to the internal cable?
What is the connection from the internal cable to the front panel?
What is the connection external on the front panel to the user?
How long is your internal cable path?
Why isn't grounding/shielding already part of the external user connector?

Chasis circular connector is user accessible external connector
Internal board to front panel via a flat ribbon cable...cable not shielded ..length will be 6inch max...both side will have a 0.1inch header...circular connector soldered to front panel....
External connector will be fischer https://www.fischerconnectors.com/global/en/products/ultimate







 

Offline james_s

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2018, 04:46:12 am »
Huh

Why USB connectors so ugly and  useless?

Why nobody use simple 3.5 4-wire male jack for USB?

Because using the same connector for multiple different standards is stupid. You don't want 5V with the ability to deliver 1A or more on the same connector you plug headphones and other AV stuff into.
 

Offline 001

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2018, 08:55:50 am »
No
headphones use TRS jack
 

Offline bob225

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2018, 11:53:04 am »
No
headphones use TRS jack

you never used a headset or a mic/earphones that are supplied with a lot of phones all use TRRS even if you do put in a TRS jack into a TRRS socket your have a resistive short avg of 25 ohms but can be 8 to several hundred ohms (apple earbuds are 23 omh's iirc)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 12:01:19 pm by bob225 »
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2018, 11:57:12 am »
No
headphones use TRS jack
No. TRRS is widely used in phones and computers to accomodate microphone.
And even if they used TRS, it would still be a terrible idea because the USB power would blow out most headphones, etc.   :palm:
 

Offline 001

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2018, 02:34:43 pm »
No
headphones use TRS jack
No. TRRS is widely used in phones and computers to accomodate microphone.
And even if they used TRS, it would still be a terrible idea because the USB power would blow out most headphones, etc.   :palm:

Ha-ha-ha
Did You mean telephones? Nobody connect headphone to telephone. All telephones has it own speaker
 

Offline Twoflower

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2018, 03:13:49 pm »
I use my cellphone with both: TRRS (a.k.a. Headset) and TRS (a.k.a. Headphone); they are compatible. Except I had a Headset that worked fine with Fruit-Phones but not with Robotic ones, but that's another story. So having another 3.5mm jack nearby you suggest to use for USB will likely fry the audio-stage or a protection circuit needs to be implemented (adding $). I know that such things existed in the past. Also other way around is possible: USB-C allows alternative usage on certain pins. But that's by design.

And with the ever faster running USB you can't use such connectors signal integrity wise anymore. Even the USB 2.1 pins are not used for USB 3 modes because the signal integrity. And you would need a TRR...RRS connector ;-). About the signal integrity I wonder all the time about the RJ-45 and Ethernet. 
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2018, 05:20:54 pm »
Ha-ha-ha
Did You mean telephones? Nobody connect headphone to telephone. All telephones has it own speaker

Since you have deliberately obscured your location, we don't know what planet you are posting from.  Here on planet Earth, 100s of millions of people use TRS and TRRS headsets, earbuds, etc. every day.  What do they use there on your planet?
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: USB using nonstandard connectors
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2018, 08:34:54 pm »
FYI, I suspect 001 is trolling...

Tim
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