Power cut in Spain and Portugal

[G7PSK]

There has been a wide spread power outage in Spain and Portugal and the explanation as to why seems a tad unusual.
They are blaming a rare atmospheric conditions of hot an cold causing "oscillations in 400KV lines" Some reports say vibrations.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c9wpq8xrvd9t?post=asset%3Addda9592-0346-4fe8-a17a-2261efc1ba5b#post

I have no idea how this could work.

[tom66]

I'm lost too.  It seems a bit dramatic from the description and I wonder if more is going on, like a cyberattack, and they don't want to admit anything yet.

It looks like besides Barcelona, nearly all of Spain is offline.

In Portugal,  Lisbon and Porto are powered up, but most of the rest of the country is still in blackout conditions.

I used EV charging data to get an idea of the outage (since the rapid chargers report outages due to power cuts over their battery-backed modems).

[G7PSK]

The EU officials are denying cyber attak, but a denial from politicians is offten as good as an admmision of guilt.

[tggzzz]

The EU officials are denying cyber attak, but a denial from politicians is offten as good as an admmision of guilt.

You forgot to mention that MSSMM[sic] can't be trusted, and you should "do you're[sic] own research".

Save paranoid conspiracy theories for other forums, and wait until an explanation has been determined.

Besides, everybody knows it was the pixies (or gremlins) dancing on the HV lines.

[Ranayna]

Reportedly there was a fire at or near a major powerline between France and Spain.
This is speculated to have caused a cascading failure of the network.

I have heard nothing about what caused that fire.

[G7PSK]

No conspiricy theories here I just said the the EU says no cyber attack and that I do not understand how the explanation put foward by the Spannish power company works.

[G7PSK]

That makes more sense than "vibrations caused by the weather"

[timeandfrequency]

Reportedly there was a fire at or near a major powerline between France and Spain.
This is speculated to have caused a cascading failure of the network.

I have heard nothing about what caused that fire.

I checked the latest news (17h47 CET   15h47 UTC) about any high voltage powerline fire in the South-West of France and there's a forceful denial. For the moment.
Firefighters checked the security IR cams multiple time and could not confirm any fire.


What is confimed for the moment is that minor power outages happened in that region after noon. Duration did not exceed a few minutes.

I also red that the Spain/Portugal grid was disconnected from the European high voltage grid from 12h38 to 13h30 CET (10h38-11h30 UTC)

[tggzzz]

No conspiricy theories here I just said the the EU says no cyber attack and that I do not understand how the explanation put foward by the Spannish power company works.

You wrote more than that (my emphasis), viz:

The EU officials are denying cyber attak, but a denial from politicians is offten as good as an admmision of guilt.

[G7PSK]

How often do politicians say one thing and do another or deny something just for the opposite to be the case, way to often to count.
So by saying the EU denys a cyber attack but a denial is often as good as an admission I was just saying that I could not put too much faith in that denial. I don't see that I need further explanations so I will leave it here. All that I was doing in the original post was trying to be brief seems that in this case it has backfired.

[timeandfrequency]

High voltage grid connexions between France and Spain (see attached map)

2  400 kVAC lines, each 1 circuit
2  225 kVAC lines, each 1 circuit
1  150 kVAC line  1 circuit
1  DC line 2 circuits


Source : https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/

[tggzzz]

How often do politicians say one thing and do another or deny something just for the opposite to be the case, way to often to count.
So by saying the EU denys a cyber attack but a denial is often as good as an admission I was just saying that I could not put too much faith in that denial. I don't see that I need further explanations so I will leave it here. All that I was doing in the original post was trying to be brief seems that in this case it has backfired.

As someone who is predisposed to conspiracy theories (because they imply cause and effect), over the course of my life I have learned that the usual explanation is a cockup or random chance.

[MrMobodies]

1  DC line 2 circuits
Source : https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/

What an interesting map. Also nice free scrolling page with no horrible spammy fixed header toolbars.


I didn't know DC used like that for very long distances but they don't say how many volts like they do the AC ones.


396km so that's 246 miles.

Oops that misleading not direct.


Walking (straight line) according to Google Earth is 312km so that's 193.86 miles.

[PartialDischarge]

Been 6 hours without electricity, cause unknown but never in 50+ years has Spain a country wide shutdown. Rumors are galore, one of them claiming that some SCADA systems were internet accesible and target of hackers:

"In recent weeks, an unusual volume of scans targeting vulnerabilities in SCADA (Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition) infrastructure belonging to the Iberian electrical system had been detected, a consistent pattern with preparation techniques characteristic of massive cyberattacks. These scans, originating in North Africa, revealed digital signatures and techniques previously used in operations attributed to cells from Morocco, such as 'APT-Mor' and 'Sand Cobra.'"

Some notes:

-After blackout only people with cash were able to purchase at some supermarkets which had diesel generators
-Learned that a country restart from 0 takes at least 10 hours, probably 15..20 hours to include train service
-Heard an expert say that an European restart from 0 could take 1 week at least 

[Jackster]

This is going to be more common in the coming years with higher demand for electric vehicles, heating, cooling and state sponsored hacking...

[timeandfrequency]

Today was very sunny day and at peak 47 % (430 GWh) of the electricity in Europe was generated by solar panels (see attached image)

Source  : https://www.energymonitor.ai/power/live-eu-electricity-generation-map/?cf-view

As nuclear power plants cannot be shut down (*) nor really modulated, the huge share of solar energy weakens the whole grid.



(*) except for security/safety reasons, of course

[timeandfrequency]

-Heard an expert say that an European restart from 0 could take 1 week at least 

Not really surprising because if nuclear power plants have to be disconnected, you also need rather quicky to shut down their reactors (= stop the nuclear fission) because it is impossible to evacuate so much heat/energy by just bypassing the turbine steam circuit.

From cold start, it needs 3 weeks to heat up a nuclear reactor.
We have 57 of those (72 % of the electricity produced in France in 2023).

[timeandfrequency]

To avoid total blackout, Spain had to disconnect a huge amount of end users
Just after noon, consumption was divided by two (see attached image).

[tggzzz]

From cold start, it needs 3 weeks to heat up a nuclear reactor.

Er. No.

https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/power-station/daily-statuses

They take a day or so to reach nominal full load.

[woody]

The Guardian had this explanation:

The risks posed to electrical systems by big variations in temperatures are well known in the industry, but it is rare for it to cause problems on the scale of the power outage in Spain and Portugal on Monday.

Transmitting power through wires comes with technical challenges. The air around conductors ionises, causing visible and audible electrical discharges known as corona discharges. That energy is lost. Extreme temperature variations cited by Portugal’s Redes Energéticas Nacionais can cause bigger problems by affecting metal wires at a molecular level, changing the frequency of the electrical current.

“Due to the variation of the temperature, the parameters of the conductor change slightly,” said Taco Engelaar, managing director at Neara, a software provider to energy utilities. “It creates an imbalance in the frequency.”

Once frequency drops below a certain level, power generators will automatically turn off in order to avoid overloading the grid.

Engelaar said that – if the atmospheric cause is confirmed – it would be a “pretty spectacular” wake-up call for other countries that they need to invest in resilience against climate risks.

“To see it at a national level, across two countries, I’ve never seen it in my career,” he said.


I am missing the braincells to understand this, but maybe someone else can 😀

[timeandfrequency]

From cold start, it needs 3 weeks to heat up a nuclear reactor.

Er. No.

https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/power-station/daily-statuses

They take a day or so to reach normal output.

My information came from here  : https://lenergeek.com/2016/12/23/redemarrer-un-reacteur-nucleaire-un-processus-long-et-complexe/
L’ensemble du processus peut prendre jusqu’à 3 semaines
So 3 weeks worst case.

[NE666]

We have 57 of those (72 % of the electricity produced in France in 2023).

As it should have been with the UK.  This is what you can do, if you don't sell off all your country's critical infrastructure for a quick buck, without asking who will then put in long term investment.

[tggzzz]

The Guardian had this explanation:

The risks posed to electrical systems by big variations in temperatures are well known in the industry, but it is rare for it to cause problems on the scale of the power outage in Spain and Portugal on Monday.

Transmitting power through wires comes with technical challenges. The air around conductors ionises, causing visible and audible electrical discharges known as corona discharges. That energy is lost. Extreme temperature variations cited by Portugal’s Redes Energéticas Nacionais can cause bigger problems by affecting metal wires at a molecular level, changing the frequency of the electrical current.

“Due to the variation of the temperature, the parameters of the conductor change slightly,” said Taco Engelaar, managing director at Neara, a software provider to energy utilities. “It creates an imbalance in the frequency.”

Once frequency drops below a certain level, power generators will automatically turn off in order to avoid overloading the grid.

Engelaar said that – if the atmospheric cause is confirmed – it would be a “pretty spectacular” wake-up call for other countries that they need to invest in resilience against climate risks.

“To see it at a national level, across two countries, I’ve never seen it in my career,” he said.


I am missing the braincells to understand this, but maybe someone else can 😀

Chinese whispers passed on by people who don't have a technical background.

Classic version was "send reinforcements we're going to advance" => "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance".

[NE666]

The Guardian had this explanation:

The Guardian doesn't trouble itself with facts or technical accuracy. I'm surprised they didn't try to explain it using interpretive dance.

On the plus side, their spelling seems to have improved.

[tggzzz]

The Guardian had this explanation:

The Guardian doesn't trouble itself with facts or technical accuracy. I'm surprised they didn't try to explain it using interpretive dance.

On the plus side, their spelling seems to have improved.

I did not write that. Please correct the attribution