Author Topic: Power cut in Spain and Portugal  (Read 85791 times)

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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #175 on: May 01, 2025, 12:19:27 am »

A larger problem was buying fuel.  I routinely use cash anyway, however if the station has no power, then they cannot operate their pumps.  I understand this has been a problem along the gulf during hurricane evacuations.  I have never seen a fueling station with backup power for their pumps, but I assume that they exist.

  Trying to use a credit card to buy fuel during an emergency has been a very big problem in Florida during and since Hurricane Andrew. Even when the stations had fuel and they had power, their interwebs weren't working so they couldn't sell you anything, even if you had cash! Starting about ten years ago Florida started requiring that many stations have generators and I think that they now connect to the net via satellite so in the last few years the stations are operating and have power for their pumps and their computers are running and connected to the net so you can buy fuel and other stuff even during the storm.  Today if you look around while driving in Florida you'll see large generators at all major gas stations and at most large stores (Wallmart, HD, etc) and even on the side of many city streets. The generators are also used to keep the lift stations and waste water pumps operating even when the grid is down in order to prevent sewage backing up into houses and to prevent streets and homes from flooding. 
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #176 on: May 01, 2025, 06:13:05 am »
Agreed. Solar grid inverters can't do much in case real power is involved. A solar grid inverter can't supply more energy than it is already supplying (a typical solar grid inverter is always maxed out) and it can't absorb (much) real power either. A spinning mass inside a generator however has the ability to convert electric power to and from kinetic energy (accumulator function).
Wow, you're back on the same plainly false claims again?

Plant (regardless of energy source) cannot run above the input source, that is true of all generators. On the grid some generators are run below their full power output as "reserve" so that if there is a change in demand they can respond. Solar inverters can do this. But of course you know this already and are trying to play semantics rather than provide the full picture.

Slewing down (shedding production) that's the thing that inverters are far better at doing than spinning mass! Other plant doesnt need to absorb power if the generation side is able to curtail quickly enough (or the demand side increase quickly enough).

How much energy storage is needed in different timeframes (capacitors: cycle by cycle to seconds, vs batteries hours) depends on the designed dynamics of the grid. What has been designed around hours of slew from nuclear/coal no longer makes sense both on the demand and supply sides.

rotating mass can indeed supply more energy than is provided to them: their inertia, they slow down.

The rate of change of frequency limits will have to be increased to run more of the grid off of inverters which do not have any significant energy storage. -so expect frequency to change more quickly because it doesn't matter as much anymore. a non physical inertia supply/demand system has no need for the frequency to remain the same.  Also as a result of the changing demand: in america it used to be that over 50% of the load was induction motors larger than 100hp. This makes for a predictable power grid and when the frequency drops so does the load. increase the voltage, the current falls, it does not increase. (remember, large induction motors do not run saturated as do small motors)

The residential load was primarily resistive for a long time, voltage rises so does current. this offsets some of the industrial demand.


VFD's and modern smps, computers, lightbulbs, etc... voltage rises, current falls. frequency does not matter!  The loads no longer drops in response to the frequency falling!

which means the frequency can fall faster in responce to generation not equalling the load.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 06:17:31 am by johansen »
 
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #177 on: May 01, 2025, 10:14:24 am »
One key point in most consumer grade PV inverters is that they do not change their power factor. Their reponse is instant.
There is no gradual control at all. A change of frequency they immediately can adjust, the power factor is awlays 1.0.
Physical stuff doesn't do that. It needs to wait for the engine to throttle up. In the meantime newton provides a buffer.
This is essential and at the same time problematic for the stability of small grids.
You even need a special rotor with Damper windings for grid synchronous operation.

You cannot physically synchronize two generators in voltage control mode only. It will never become a stable system.
For this same reason you cannot synchronize two grid-tie inverters.
It's like you're trying to synchronize square waves, and if they don't exactly match they turn off.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 10:16:12 am by Jeroen3 »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #178 on: May 01, 2025, 10:24:57 am »
One key point in most consumer grade PV inverters is that they do not change their power factor. Their reponse is instant.
There is no gradual control at all. A change of frequency they immediately can adjust, the power factor is awlays 1.0.
Physical stuff doesn't do that. It needs to wait for the engine to throttle up. In the meantime newton provides a buffer.
This is essential and at the same time problematic for the stability of small grids.

You cannot physically synchronize two generators in voltage control mode only. It will never become a stable system.
For this same reason you cannot synchronize two grid-tie inverters.
It's like you're trying to synchronize square waves, and if they don't exactly match they turn off.
https://knowledge-center.solaredge.com/sites/kc/files/application_note_power_control_configuration.pdf
Here is a manual from one inverter brand, where on page 11 they give you some examples on how to configure an inverter for cos phi other than 1. It also lists typical values on the frequency and other stuff. All of these settings are custom set to your specific country.
The inverter tries to output cos phi of 1 because that's what you are getting paid for. It doesn't actually always do that, this is more complicated.
 
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Online Someone

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #179 on: May 01, 2025, 10:31:07 am »
Agreed. Solar grid inverters can't do much in case real power is involved. A solar grid inverter can't supply more energy than it is already supplying (a typical solar grid inverter is always maxed out) and it can't absorb (much) real power either. A spinning mass inside a generator however has the ability to convert electric power to and from kinetic energy (accumulator function).
Wow, you're back on the same plainly false claims again?

Plant (regardless of energy source) cannot run above the input source, that is true of all generators. On the grid some generators are run below their full power output as "reserve" so that if there is a change in demand they can respond. Solar inverters can do this. But of course you know this already and are trying to play semantics rather than provide the full picture.

Slewing down (shedding production) that's the thing that inverters are far better at doing than spinning mass! Other plant doesnt need to absorb power if the generation side is able to curtail quickly enough (or the demand side increase quickly enough).

How much energy storage is needed in different timeframes (capacitors: cycle by cycle to seconds, vs batteries hours) depends on the designed dynamics of the grid. What has been designed around hours of slew from nuclear/coal no longer makes sense both on the demand and supply sides.
rotating mass can indeed supply more energy than is provided to them: their inertia, they slow down.

The rate of change of frequency limits will have to be increased to run more of the grid off of inverters which do not have any significant energy storage. -so expect frequency to change more quickly because it doesn't matter as much anymore. a non physical inertia supply/demand system has no need for the frequency to remain the same.  Also as a result of the changing demand: in america it used to be that over 50% of the load was induction motors larger than 100hp. This makes for a predictable power grid and when the frequency drops so does the load. increase the voltage, the current falls, it does not increase. (remember, large induction motors do not run saturated as do small motors)

The residential load was primarily resistive for a long time, voltage rises so does current. this offsets some of the industrial demand.
The rotating mass requires energy to come up to speed (just like charging a capacitor up to voltage). Unless you wind the flywheel into reverse (or charge the capacitor negative) then you can only get out the energy you put in. In that second case you then have some energy left over you need to do something with. Inverters are not the limitation here.

Back to school for you. Energy vs power, and you fail on the basics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy20osti/73856.pdf
Quote from: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Overall, the rapid response from [inverters] can mimic or even supersede traditional frequency-responsive reserves.


VFD's and modern smps, computers, lightbulbs, etc... voltage rises, current falls. frequency does not matter!  The loads no longer drops in response to the frequency falling!

which means the frequency can fall faster in responce to generation not equalling the load.
That inverters do not change power smoothly with input frequency (just as rooftop solar does not change output smoothly with grid frequency) is because the grid operators have not asked for it (or specifically prohibited it). But the magic point is that inverters can have that behaviour.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #180 on: May 01, 2025, 10:31:54 am »
One key point in most consumer grade PV inverters is that they do not change their power factor. ... the power factor is awlays 1.0.

Welcome to 2020's: adjustable power factor in consumer grade PV inverters isn't a new thing anymore.
 

Online Someone

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #181 on: May 01, 2025, 10:34:03 am »
One key point in most consumer grade PV inverters is that they do not change their power factor. Their reponse is instant.
There is no gradual control at all.
If they are configured to do that, which they do not have to be.

For this same reason you cannot synchronize two grid-tie inverters.
:-DD misleading in the extreme, so we cannot synchronise 2 inverters but somehow millions of them do synchronise?
 

Online paulca

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #182 on: May 01, 2025, 10:45:13 am »
Low voltage lines are bad enough, e.g. spotting a farmhouse separated from the road, and then trying to spot the LV lines that will almost certainly be leading to it. Etc :(

Yea, pretty much how we are taught.

"Forget looking for lines.  You won't see them until it's far, far too late.  Look for there to be a reason for, a need for lines to exist, don't go there."  The easiest way to see them is the shadow of the poles or the lines themselves.  However that doesn't work on cloudy days or at noon.

Near airports/landing strips, glide sites and at the landing field proper where I was flying the lines all have bright orange balls on them.

If anyone reading has every wondered what they are for, it's so you can see them from the air.

In Ireland (and possibly the UK) you will see farmers taking a different approach were lines cross their hedges.  Many around here have tied ribbons to them.  So they (and their farm hires) see them and dont hit them with the bail fork.  Granted a lot of these are "telegraph" poles as I don't think even farmers are that stupid to go up in a fork to tie a ribbon to a power line.
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Offline G7PSKTopic starter

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #183 on: May 01, 2025, 10:55:33 am »
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #184 on: May 01, 2025, 11:07:36 am »
Maybe there was a bad actor involved after all. 

Right now there is no technical committee giving explanations to the public (alas NTSB, EASA..), only politicians saying "trust us only", so while there are many rumours and opinions by good people I'm convinced they will never officially tell the truth.
 

Online madires

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #185 on: May 01, 2025, 11:23:05 am »
Maybe there was a bad actor involved after all. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/04/29/grid-operator-investigates-unusual-activity-spain-blackouts/

Please don't post paywalled URLs.

Alternatives:
-  Mystery of Britain’s unexplained power outages hours before Spain and Portugal blackout, https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/mystery-britains-unexplained-power-outages-spain-portugal-blackout/
- Mystery as Britain hit by unexplained power outages hours before Spain and Portugal blackout, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14659533/Spain-Portugal-blackout-UK-power-outages.html
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #186 on: May 01, 2025, 11:32:54 am »
One thing I haven't seen mentioned but is worth understanding is about the role of the frequency in the grid: it's not that exact frequency in itself is of any importance for power transfer, but frequency acts as an indicator of load vs. production balance: basically a build-in communication mechanism that tells us to increase/decrease production/consumption. Compared to more sophisticated data networks the beauty is in the simplicity and reliability: as we are using AC power anyway, we have this frequency parameter we can measure - and affect.

For example, we do frequency containment reserve control. What that is, we just measure grid frequency distributed at every unit, and control their batteries with a simple linear curve based on frequency deviation, and that's it. We add production to grid on underfrequency, and consumption on overfrequency.

In that light, it is also absolutely counterproductive to have mechanisms where production drops out at underfrequency - since underfrequency is the signal to increase production. Of course, at some point this needs to happen: you can't run the grid at, say, 30Hz, since many types of equipment (distribution transfomers, motors etc.) saturate, but if this protective turn-off is set too close to normal operational range, it can then amplify the collapse. And this applies to absolutely all types of production, they all are required to disconnect at some low frequency limit.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 11:34:57 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #187 on: May 01, 2025, 11:42:36 am »
One key point in most consumer grade PV inverters is that they do not change their power factor. Their reponse is instant.
There is no gradual control at all.
If they are configured to do that, which they do not have to be.

For this same reason you cannot synchronize two grid-tie inverters.
:-DD misleading in the extreme, so we cannot synchronise 2 inverters but somehow millions of them do synchronise?
They have to do that anyway, because of physics. See below.
 

Online madires

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #188 on: May 01, 2025, 12:30:31 pm »
In that light, it is also absolutely counterproductive to have mechanisms where production drops out at underfrequency - since underfrequency is the signal to increase production. Of course, at some point this needs to happen: you can't run the grid at, say, 30Hz, since many types of equipment (distribution transfomers, motors etc.) saturate, but if this protective turn-off is set too close to normal operational range, it can then amplify the collapse. And this applies to absolutely all types of production, they all are required to disconnect at some low frequency limit.

Someone else mentioned a lower limit of 47.5 Hz. The power grid, distibution and loads are designed to work at 50 Hz. If we deviate too much we get into efficiency issues, overloads and motors running at the wrong speed. BTW, many oven clocks count mains' 50 Hz pulses. If I understand it correctly, the balancing of generation and loads isn't instantaneous and requires patience. Multiple smaller steps are better than a large one. Automatic disconnects when the grid frequency is way off help with this approach (or worsen things when too aggressive). The main issue of destabilizing the grid seems to be too many changes in a short time frame. Possibly a more coordinated control and dampening of automated disconnects might help. Another BTW, this is quite similar to the internet routing (BGP).
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #189 on: May 01, 2025, 12:49:09 pm »
Maybe there was a bad actor involved after all. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/04/29/grid-operator-investigates-unusual-activity-spain-blackouts/

Please don't post paywalled URLs.

Alternatives:
-  Mystery of Britain’s unexplained power outages hours before Spain and Portugal blackout, https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/mystery-britains-unexplained-power-outages-spain-portugal-blackout/
- Mystery as Britain hit by unexplained power outages hours before Spain and Portugal blackout, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14659533/Spain-Portugal-blackout-UK-power-outages.html

Be very cautious of anything in the Daily Wail; its target audience is the middle aged "worried well" woman. Famously it divides chemicals into two classes: cancer causing, and cancer curing. Some are in both categories.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline dietert1

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #190 on: May 01, 2025, 01:15:03 pm »
When thinking about the upper frequency limit again, i mean the case when PV was a big fraction of production and suddenly production becomes more than consumption.

First i don't understand how such a grid can be stable. I mean if all PV inverters read the phase from the grid, then who will determine phase? Don't we need someone/something to enforce a certain phase in the presence of all that power feed? Maybe all inverters should be connected to a common control signal, where they only receive (and don't drive it).

How about automatically throttle PV inverter output in a moderate fashion, e.g. 100 % at f < 50.2 Hz, 50 % at 50.6 Hz and 0 % at 51 Hz? Is this what modern inverters do or do they just disconnect at a certain upper frequency limit?

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline 5U4GB

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #191 on: May 01, 2025, 01:25:35 pm »
When thinking about the upper frequency limit again, i mean the case when PV was a big fraction of production and suddenly production becomes more than consumption.

First i don't understand how such a grid can be stable. I mean if all PV inverters read the phase from the grid, then who will determine phase? Don't we need someone/something to enforce a certain phase in the presence of all that power feed? Maybe all inverters should be connected to a common control signal, where they only receive (and don't drive it).

This issue has been recognised for awhile, which is why some utilities are now switching to grid-forming converters/inverters where renewable sources are involved.  These changes are all quite recent though so it'll take awhile before they propagate through the networks.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #192 on: May 01, 2025, 01:31:44 pm »
How about automatically throttle PV inverter output in a moderate fashion, e.g. 100 % at f < 50.2 Hz, 50 % at 50.6 Hz and 0 % at 51 Hz? Is this what modern inverters do or do they just disconnect at a certain upper frequency limit?

They do exactly that, unless legislator has forbidden* them from doing that. It's called droop control, or P controller. It's obviously much better than complete turn-off at a certain frequency.

*) literally, or by choosing to not communicate about it at all or confusingly, so that manufacturers do not want to take a risk of enabling it by default

See e.g. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/australia-people-paid-to-not-export-solar/msg5892016/#msg5892016

Grid frequency is this "common control signal". There are also secondary signals, of course, for example used to maintain long-term clock stability in grids that chose that it matters.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 01:33:58 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #193 on: May 01, 2025, 01:56:22 pm »
For this same reason you cannot synchronize two grid-tie inverters.

:-DD misleading in the extreme, so we cannot synchronise 2 inverters but somehow millions of them do synchronise?

He means they cannot be synchronized against each other without a third load impedance source.

How about automatically throttle PV inverter output in a moderate fashion, e.g. 100 % at f < 50.2 Hz, 50 % at 50.6 Hz and 0 % at 51 Hz? Is this what modern inverters do or do they just disconnect at a certain upper frequency limit?

There is an economic incentive not to do that when the customer is paid for power delivered to the grid.  Most inverters are programmed to deliver as much power as possible, consistent with the regulations governing how they operate.

One of the tricks a grid-tie inverter can do, if allowed, is once the maximum voltage is reached, where output has to be curtailed, is to advance its phase delivering even more power without raising the voltage.  Now it is pulling the frequency higher, but only up to a point.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 02:02:59 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #194 on: May 01, 2025, 04:47:28 pm »
One key point in most consumer grade PV inverters is that they do not change their power factor. Their reponse is instant.
There is no gradual control at all. A change of frequency they immediately can adjust, the power factor is awlays 1.0.
Physical stuff doesn't do that. It needs to wait for the engine to throttle up. In the meantime newton provides a buffer.
This is essential and at the same time problematic for the stability of small grids.

You cannot physically synchronize two generators in voltage control mode only. It will never become a stable system.
For this same reason you cannot synchronize two grid-tie inverters.
It's like you're trying to synchronize square waves, and if they don't exactly match they turn off.
https://knowledge-center.solaredge.com/sites/kc/files/application_note_power_control_configuration.pdf
Here is a manual from one inverter brand, where on page 11 they give you some examples on how to configure an inverter for cos phi other than 1. It also lists typical values on the frequency and other stuff. All of these settings are custom set to your specific country.
The inverter tries to output cos phi of 1 because that's what you are getting paid for. It doesn't actually always do that, this is more complicated.

changing the PV's power factor does not increase or decrease the power grid's frequency, because it will be offset by the power plant synchronous generator's excision to keep their generator producing more or less power as needed.


Since solar rarely runs at 100% power output (clouds) the inverters depending on how they are sized for the solar array, will have significant reserve capacity to provide or retard KVA. but this doesn't affect the frequency of the grid. it affects the voltage of the grid, at that location. the inductance of the transmission lines are significant as is the leakage inductance of the large transformers (5 to 20%)

I have heard that most of the prime mover generators are running at 90% lagging power factor since its cheaper to have static capacitor banks offset the KVARs and the generator runs with less amps on the stator. EDIT: Less rotor amps, more stator amps, ( there's an optimal balance depending on the load and design of the generator. )

Solar arrays if designed, as I've described in the other thread: could be built with inverters designed to simulate a large generator.. but in order to do that you have to have the reserve capacity, as the frequency drops the real power into the grid must increase. if your solar array can't do that, then its not helping. and as the frequency rises, the power must decrease.

no one wants to do that for solar arrays, they want to just produce the power and get paid for it.


basically the solar arrays have to be brought into the whole conversation where the grid operators can control their output, in real time.. seconds... not minutes.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 09:13:28 pm by johansen »
 

Offline timeandfrequency

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #195 on: May 01, 2025, 06:24:43 pm »
Is more rotating mass sufficient to avoid grid collapse ?

The UCTE/Entsoe Official report discussing about a grid split in Europe on 4th November 2006 that occured after local overload followed by desynchronisation, provides some interesting figures an hinsights.
To have a sketch of what happened that night, you may read the related Wiki page (English translation of the French wiki page, which is more detailed than the native english version) [refresh the Wiki page if english translation refuses to show up].

Let's focus on the 'Western Zone' also called 'Area 1', colored in orange (refers to the map of Europe in the Wiki page).

After the grid split occured, 'Area 1' underwent a production-consumption imbalance of 8.9 GW for 182.6 GW production.
Wind power is 3.5 % of the production, solar production is logically not mentionned because incident occured at 10 PM in November.
So likely more than 90% of the production is provided by heavy turbines (steam for nuclear, gas and coal, water in case of hydraulic plant) coupled to massive generators.
When the grid split occured, the supply-demand missing power (8.9 GW) represents 4.8 % of the production in 'Area 1'.

At first sight, I would say that a less than 5% production shortage is not a big deal and should be quite manageable.
Now let's have a look to the grid frequency in 'Area 1'.
In fact, the situation is almost desperate and grid is close to collapse : the frequency loss rate is 120-150 mHz/s so after 8 seconds, 1 Hz was lost !
Remember that UCTE/Entsoe recommends to keep the strongest power plants connected down to 47.5 Hz.
This means that without forceful and immediate intervention, total blackout is just 12 seconds ahead the 49 Hz mark (= 20 seconds after the grid split incident).
Situation is actually aggravated by this harsh frequency drop : at 49 Hz, some production plants have already tripped which leads to an additional production loss of 10.9 GW.

Massive load sheeding of about 16.7 GW, depriving around 15 million(*) customers of power could stop the frequency drop (min value was 49 Hz) and this was completed by connecting to grid almost all tertiary reserve available :
A total of about 16 800 MW was started in the Western area while the tertiary reserve declared in this area was about 18 500 MW. That means that in the Western area, almost all available reserves were started.

15 minutes after the grid split, frequency was back to 50 Hz in 'Area 1' and syncronization + reconnection to other areas of Europe was performed in about 40 minutes.
Luckily, western european grid total collapse and blackout was avoided.


Compare the November 4th, 2006 incident to what happened in Spain this week

Remark: this is my own attempt to provide some insights on how Spain dealt with the grid collapse.
You may of course have a different point of view.
Furthermore, no official reason for the outage has yet been released.

Q1) Could Spain avoid partial blackout at 12h32 CET ?
No, Spain (and probably no other country in the world) has sufficient tertiary reserve to compensate a 60 % production loss. Load sheeding is the sole solution to avoid immediate collapse and total blackout.

Q2) Is 'rotating mass' the ultimate solution for all kind of grid issues ?
No. By looking at the figures above, more rotating mass/inertia just gives more time to activate countermeasures (load shedding, put reserve production on the grid). But we are still speaking about a timeframe of a couple of seconds. To maintain frequency at its' nominal value (50 Hz for Europe) production must equal consumption every single moment.

Q3) How can network instability be limited in an energy mix that tends to increasingly favor renewable energies ?
As johansen underscores (see last sentence of Reply #194), I would say that the grid monitoring system must be able to control (**) and monitor in real time a large part of the decentralized renewable power generation. The basic operating rules implemented in most vanilla solar inverter(***), once duplicated millions of times, likely weaken the grid stability.
It is also likely that raising the interconnexion capacity between regions/countries (= densify the network) improves the grid stability, but this needs heavy investements and all of those are not economically profitable or even possible.



(*) this is the figure for whole Europe, not not only 'Area 1'

(**) control orders like 'force connection' (if the sun shines of course), 'force disconnection' and the ability to modulate the injected power or a solar equivalent of the 'droop speed control' would certainly help the grid supervision system to better master the grid frequency. Early signalling of clouds (or other situations that suddenly hide the sun :)) would also have beneficial consequences.

(***) the (too) basic and autonomous operating rules are : connection-disconnexion if within-outside 50 Hz ± 0.5 Hz and stupidly always fuel the grid with the maximum amount of solar power available.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2025, 12:30:54 am by timeandfrequency »
 
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Online JohanH

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #196 on: May 01, 2025, 09:47:24 pm »
The Swedish paper NyTeknik writes a few interesting facts (in Swedish):
https://www.nyteknik.se/energi/enorma-stromavbrottet-i-spanien-sa-paverkades-svensk-dansk-hvdc-kabel/4356324

(translated a few points)
"Sweden wasn't affected"
"an emergency operation was automatically activated on an HVDC cable between Denmark and southern Sweden"
"The activation was done because the large power outage caused the frequency to go down on the continent. Using the emergency power procedure, the Swedish electricity system was able to push power to help restore frequency."

I think this shows that HVDC links are good separators between large grids.
 
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Offline timeandfrequency

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #197 on: May 01, 2025, 10:14:35 pm »
I think this shows that HVDC links are good separators between large grids.
Electricity exchanges between France an Spain will be improved by 2 GW.
Delivery is expected in 2028.
And it's (partially) submarine HVDC.
See Reply #83 for additional information.
 

Offline johansen

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #198 on: May 01, 2025, 10:15:13 pm »
Q3) How can network instability be limited in an energy mix that tends to increasingly favor renewable energies ?
As johansen underscores (see last sentence of Reply #194), I would say that the grid monitoring system must be able to control (**) and monitor in real time a large part of the decentralized renewable power generation. The basic operating rules implemented in most vanilla solar inverter(***), once duplicated millions of times, likely weaken the grid stability.
It is also likely that raising the interconnexion capacity between regions/countries (= densify the network) improves the grid stability, but this needs heavy investements and all of those are not economically profitable or even possible.



(*) this is the figure for whole Europe, not not only 'Area 1'

(**) control orders like 'force connection' (if the sun shines of course), 'force disconnection' and the ability to modulate the injected power or a solar equivalent of the 'droop speed control' would certainly help the grid supervision system to better master the grid frequency. Early signalling of clouds (or other situations that suddenly hide the sun :)) would also have beneficial consequences.

(***) the (too) basic and autonomous operating rules are : connection-disconnexion if within-outside 50 Hz ± 0.5 Hz and stupidly always fuel the grid with the maximum amount of solar power available.

I do not understand why solar and wind should trip at all, even down to 40Hz. they should be programmed to reduce output power as it approaches 50.5hz in my opinion. -same with solar.

pumped storage tripping offline above 49hz would certainly help as is pointed out. this got me thinking why not build a variable flow rate swashplate pumped storage system where the motor-generator keeps running the same direction but the water can flow backwards to produce power.. turns out they aren't that efficient.

the issue in the 2006 incident was made worse by the inability for the grid to shut off their wind turbines which were helping to push the eastern grid up to 50.4hz when the western grid was too slow, this hindered re-synchronization
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 10:17:08 pm by johansen »
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Power cut in Spain and Portugal
« Reply #199 on: May 01, 2025, 11:19:02 pm »
I do not understand why solar and wind should trip at all, even down to 40Hz. they should be programmed to reduce output power as it approaches 50.5hz in my opinion. -same with solar.
At some point it makes no sense to try and stabilise a grid by keeping pumping power into it once it has gone off frequency too far. Something is seriously wrong. Also keep in mind that transformers big and small in all kinds of equipment may saturate at lower frequencies. Especially small transformers run hot at 50Hz already. And ofcourse there can be a failure in the grid itself as well.

This happened not too far from where I live. IIRC a fault occured and the automatic cut-off didn't work causing massive amounts of energy being pumped into short:

« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 11:26:17 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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