if the circuit is actually unstable during switching transitions (that is, the oscillation will actually appear spontaneously even without fast transients perturbing the circuit) or if the circuit is merely underdamped and being perturbed by very fast di/dt or dv/dt.
I did not understand what you wanted, but now I think you are asking if the oscillation is dampened, attenuated.
Yes it is, but only moderately so. It does not start swinging on it's own!
recently had a self-oscillating nMOS issue that was switched slowly on purpose. It had the right conditions to become a self-exciting Colpitts oscillator during certain parts of the turn on/off transition where the biasing was just right for that to happen; i.e. it wasn't normal LC oscillation.
Post the scope shots of Vgs, Vds, and stop wasting people's time, it's relatively obvious when this type of oscillation happens.
If it is so easy why can't you describe it and let us know how one can tell? What do you need the graph for?
Would not a colpitts need a parallel LC in series with the gate? I don't see how that would be possible.
I do not understand why we can not talk about this on an abstract generic level? There must be a limited number of reasons, circumstances this can happen. I am not talking about 30 MHz here! We are talking over 100 MHz. Given that the gate is involved there might be an active component to this.
You can't say that without knowing which MOSFET has been used.
The devices we currently use are:
MOSFET IPW60R099C7
Driver 2ED21844S06J
But we got other MOSFETs in the drawer.
What I find confusing is that the switching takes time but the oscillation can happen quickly enough within it.
I thought modern power MOSFETs had long ago solved this problem, but I do occasionally still see maximum di/dt or dv/dt specifications in datasheets.
We are well in specifications for that. No, I do not think it is that, but I suspect active behavior to be part of the problem, after all the gate source voltage does change a lot and U
DS does too.
What happens if the TO247 packages are not bolted onto a heat sink? I assume the heat sink is connected to 0 V and the stray capacitance between the TO247 and the heat sink is the source of energy.
Yes, the devices are isolated but close to a metal body, there is a Drain to 0V capacitance. Thank you for thinking of that. On the low side it is just adding to the C
DS, but for the high side this might be relevant.
I can tell you how I addressed a somewhat similar issue years ago. I was using power MOSFETs (meant for switching, in TO-3P packages) in a linear narrowband RF power amplifier (about 3MHz), and saw that when driven with a large enough amplitude, it would exhibit bursts of EMI at 130-160MHz. This wasn't a sustained oscillation, it happened when the drain current exceeded a certain level, then died down until the next cycle of the 3MHz waveform. I tried a few simple things like adjusting gate series resistance, adding RC snubbers to the drain and gate, etc, without much success. Ultimately what I did was build a very detailed spice model of the circuit. It started with fairly idealized components, then I added parasitic terms estimated from my PCB layout. Eventually the simulation produced the same behavior. Then I was able to use the simulation to determine an optimal solution, which worked well in the real circuit.
Of course, this approach requires very detailed knowledge of the circuit design, which you're not going to share.
And it would be crazy and impossible if you or anyone did the same from pictures of a 12 layer board with parts below metal blocks.
But your story is inspirational anyhow. A colleague did try to build a simulation but it does not show this behavior. Without some sort of 3D feature extraction, how did you estimate the parasitics? Very educated guessing, trial and error, measurements with a network analyzer? We are talking >>100 MHz here, not your average LCR-Meter.
Was it some sort of non-linear simulation that changed capacitance with voltage?
The trouble with that approach is that there is no guaranty of success, I might never see the oscillation, but if the effort/time is limited, then I could try/risk it.
The AI suggested a failure mode: The frequency could become so high that the current is not distributed evenly over the die. That might cause local over heating. This would explain why we do see failures sometimes but not always even though we do observe the gate oscillation.
The oscillations occurs during the switching time of the MOSFET. Once it has fully switched, the oscillation stops.
Yes
It's driving a servo motor in 'bursts', and we have an idea of the burst frequency
I could find out but the big busts are dictated externally thus are random for the circuit.
I don't see how it is relevant.
no idea of switch edge di/dt or dv/dt
I could provide ~2x estimates.
di/dt = 2A/ns
dv/dt = 7V/ns
Previous design versions had an RC on the gate-source
Yes, that is one thing we are trying. It worked, but not enough to stay in the max rating.
parasitic inductances and capacitances in the MOSFET and other devices around it.
When you do that then you should first think about the frequency an Quality factor and then what it would take to have that. Then you should test two different resistors and measure their impact on the time constant of the attenuation. I have done all that. I concluded that the inductance must be <10nH.
If the dv/dt on the drain of the MOSFET is very high, that's a lot of swing on the Miller capacitance of it and it can potentially drive the gate voltage up and down.
Yes, it always does.
Once the part has fully switched, no more di/dt or dv/dt and the problem goes away.
Right, but also both FETs are now fully ON or OFF.
If you add an RC on the gate, you now slow the switching down
Only a little. Do not over estimate the effect! While true in principle I doubt it is a sensible approach.
di/dt or dv/dt is controlled enough that the parasitics aren't as big of an issue.
That is common thinking.
My next Post will include some measurement pictures.