Troubleshooting AVR-2802 - Good 5.1 CH analog input/output receiver ?

[MathWizard]

I need a better 5.1 system for PC audio, like low latency online gaming. So I want to get some better speakers, and a receiver, a few hundred watts is more than enough. I don't want to hook anything else to it, besides my PC soundcard.

I have a good AE-5 plus soundblaster soundcard, it already should do any and all digital processing, before outputting to 5.1ch RCA jacks, from a 32-bit DAC. So I would think an older receiver, without a pile of extra digital and video stuff, should be good for me.

Most receiver's these days don't have 5.1CH analog inputs. And I don't want to add more latency, and software+soundcard should do everything anyways right ?


So any recommendations for a receiver that sounded good, and maybe had a minimum of hard to find chips ? IDK, maybe the average receiver from the 90's/2000's, already had a lot of custom hard to find parts, and all their caps would be wearing out ??

I'm mainly looking on ebay. I could get something new, but again most don't have 5.1CH inputs, and that would add another digital layer, before the speakers.

Any recommendations ?

[bdunham7]

I have a Marantz SR7008 about a decade old and it has full 7.1 analog inputs.  I believe the lower models didn't have that, it was sort of "flagship model has every possible feature" sort of thing.  It's not going to have the repairability and jellybean parts of a 1980 model, but I think that by the time 5.1 surround was a thing, the old-school designs were already fading fast.  They go fairly cheap on eBay because they aren't up to date with current video and surround features.  They've gone to marketing strategy of introducing a new model every year.

[MathWizard]

I've seen the Marantz name a few times, IDK if all their stuff is good, but yeah I'll watch for them. I would find it fun to try repairing some of the older stuff, but I remember some of it would have to be matched to the other parts.

I didn't know all this stuff was going so digital, most motherboards and soundcards still have 3.5mm outputs for 5.1CH, so I expected all the new receivers to have it still.

[themadhippy]

it already should do any and all digital processing,

surely then  all you need is 6 power amps

[tooki]

I need a better 5.1 system for PC audio, like low latency online gaming. So I want to get some better speakers, and a receiver, a few hundred watts is more than enough. I don't want to hook anything else to it, besides my PC soundcard.

I have a good AE-5 plus soundblaster soundcard, it already should do any and all digital processing, before outputting to 5.1ch RCA jacks, from a 32-bit DAC. So I would think an older receiver, without a pile of extra digital and video stuff, should be good for me.

Most receiver's these days don't have 5.1CH analog inputs. And I don't want to add more latency, and software+soundcard should do everything anyways right ?

I know for a fact that the Denon AVR-19xx series route their external surround inputs directly to the power amps. If you have any plans to be near Washington DC soon, I have an AVR-1906 that’s been sitting boxed in my friend’s basement for years, you could have it if you want. (But shipping it would cost more than it’s worth, so I’d buy one locally otherwise.) Models below the AVR-19xx series don’t have the analog external surround inputs, but I’d expect those inputs on higher series to work the same. Older models like the -1906 that have only analog video go for peanuts used, and now the same fate is befalling newer ones whose HDMI ports don’t support 4K, like the AVR-1910 I currently use. The video portion doesn’t matter since you won’t be using it.

With that said I wouldn’t worry about latency with S/PDIF digital or with models that digitize all the inputs first (like the Sony STR-DB2000 I also have); it should be extremely small since these were made to keep in sync with a CRT TV, which has very little input latency. (It’s the dumb HDCP encryption in HDMI and co that adds latency. D/A conversion itself is fast enough that the speed of sound between speaker and ear is going to be a bigger delay.

[Zoli]

Look in thrift stores(Salvation army, Value village, etc.); I've seen 5.1 AV-centres as low as 29.99 CAD.

[wasedadoc]

Why is this in the repair section of the forum?

[MathWizard]

I'm being cheap and in a rush, so I'm looking at a lot of old stuff that might have problems or will be untested anyways. The less custom digital stuff, the easier it should be to patch up too, if it breaks.

Shipping from the states usually adds too much cost.

There's a few with the 5.1ch RCA inputs, like a Denon 1804, or a 3806 (7.1ch). I think I saw a 190x too.


I'm confused about some of this digital audio, and surround channels in general. I have DVD's, all bought before say 2012. I have no plans to get a blu-ray player. So I'm still assuming my soundcard and just a basic 5.1ch audio amp. should be able to do everything, with the analog from the soundcard.

[tooki]

What is it you're trying to do, then? Play games or watch DVDs?

Any home theater receiver is basically toast if anything digital fails, since the microcontrollers control all the signal routing (which is, aside from power amplification, arguably their biggest task).

If your PC sound card has an optical or coaxial S/PDIF digital output, and your games can use this, then that's the easiest and best way to get sound to the receiver. (Optical has the added advantage of being galvanically isolated, so no ground loop problems.) The AV receiver will automatically configure for the data format sent.

What do you need to know about digital audio and surround?

[coppice]

Current AV receivers have some weird choices. Most only have stereo connexions for the analogue inputs, yet fill up the back panel with lots of RGB and composite analogue video inputs and outputs that I can't imagine many people using in 2024. An input is good, for hooking up that old VHS or laserdisc player you still have treasured media for, but who still needs an RGB analogue output?

[tooki]

Current AV receivers have some weird choices. Most only have stereo connexions for the analogue inputs, yet fill up the back panel with lots of RGB and composite analogue video inputs and outputs that I can't imagine many people using in 2024. An input is good, for hooking up that old VHS or laserdisc player you still have treasured media for, but who still needs an RGB analogue output?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Modern AV receivers are dominated by HDMI inputs. And some analog audio for sure. Usually some digital audio inputs too.

As you depart from the entry level models, analog video inputs are added, then S-Video, and then higher still, maybe a component video input. Nobody (AFAIK) puts RGB inputs on them, that's really never been a thing in home cinema.

[coppice]

Current AV receivers have some weird choices. Most only have stereo connexions for the analogue inputs, yet fill up the back panel with lots of RGB and composite analogue video inputs and outputs that I can't imagine many people using in 2024. An input is good, for hooking up that old VHS or laserdisc player you still have treasured media for, but who still needs an RGB analogue output?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Modern AV receivers are dominated by HDMI inputs. And some analog audio for sure. Usually some digital audio inputs too.

As you depart from the entry level models, analog video inputs are added, then S-Video, and then higher still, maybe a component video input. Nobody (AFAIK) puts RGB inputs on them, that's really never been a thing in home cinema.

My Marantz NR-1711 seems typical of a modestly priced receiver. Its last year's model. It has 2 sets of RGB input phonos, labelled "DVD" and "media player", and one set of RGB output phonos labelled "monitor". Its has 3 composite video in phonos, and one composite video out phono.

[MathWizard]

I don't have a TV, so it's just a 5.1ch system for my PC for games, and music/video's. And it has a DVDburner, but I really don't like those any more, they are super loud.

I don't like headphones much, they get uncomfortable.

For years's I've used RCA from a soundcard, into a really cheap pc gaming 5.1 ch system. Just getting better speakers, and just about any receiver, should be an improvement in sound.

In games, even offline, like shooter's or racing games, I just want to minimize lag, from any extra digital audio processing. I read some article, and some setups, like optical, will add dozens or hundreds of ms of lag. Some people have issues like that with watching movies and streaming too.

Here's something I don't get, in my new soundcard settings for Dolby audio for example. It says it will "encode" any stereo signal to Dolby, and then you have to output that digital signal to a digital receiver. And so then doesn't the receiver convert it to analog for the speaker outputs ?

My soundblaster AE-5 soundcard has RCA analog outputs already, they just have to be amplified. So can't it do the Dolby mixing, convert it to analog, and nothing besides amplification is needed ??


I don't want to spend a fortune, and I know there's used ones that will have problems over my head, or hardly worth fixing. I don;t want to troubleshoot one for a month either, so IDK what to do.

[Zoli]

...
In games, even offline, like shooter's or racing games, I just want to minimize lag, from any extra digital audio processing. I read some article, and some setups, like optical, will add dozens or hundreds of ms of lag. Some people have issues like that with watching movies and streaming too.
...

If you want to minimize lag, all-analog is the way to go; not optical or coaxial. As a rule of thumb, look for receivers without HDMI; is a good chance to have an all-analog chain available. As side-note, during today's thrifting I've seen two receivers with 5.1 analog inputs: Panasonic for 30.00CAD and Pioneer for 49.99CAD.
Edit: all-analog chains are still easy to repair...

[MathWizard]

Well I went to the pawn shop and got a Denon AVR-2802, 6.1/7.1 CH's, it's meant for 6-8ohms. I'm just setting it up. For now, I have very low power, 8-15W, 4 ohm LR/Center/RearLR speakers. I've read that it should be ok, since I'm not going to turn it up any amount.

My subwoofer speaker is 25W 4ohms. Until I just cut it's cable, it was powered from my Logitech 5.1ch system (which I partially rebuilt a couple of years back). I see on the AVR2802, there is no speaker output for a subwoofer, only an RCA output for an amp inside the sub. If I'm barely using any power anyways, might it be ok to plug the bare sub-speaker into the subwoofer pre-amp output ?

Otherwise I'd want to disable a bunch of my logitech system, if I was going to use it still as the amp for the woofer. That is until I get some proper bookshelf speakers, and a better sub w/ an amp.

https://ia801702.us.archive.org/15/items/manualsbase-id-431554/431554.pdf

[themadhippy]

I see on the AVR2802, there is no speaker output for a subwoofer, only an RCA output for an amp inside the sub

yep thats pretty standard, think ive  only seen 1 av receiver/amp that had a built in  amp for the sub

. If I'm barely using any power anyways, might it be ok to plug the bare sub-speaker into the subwoofer pre-amp output ?

you could,but you wont hear anything, its a line level output

[coromonadalix]

yep  you need an amplified sub   for the line out

[tooki]

Current AV receivers have some weird choices. Most only have stereo connexions for the analogue inputs, yet fill up the back panel with lots of RGB and composite analogue video inputs and outputs that I can't imagine many people using in 2024. An input is good, for hooking up that old VHS or laserdisc player you still have treasured media for, but who still needs an RGB analogue output?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Modern AV receivers are dominated by HDMI inputs. And some analog audio for sure. Usually some digital audio inputs too.

As you depart from the entry level models, analog video inputs are added, then S-Video, and then higher still, maybe a component video input. Nobody (AFAIK) puts RGB inputs on them, that's really never been a thing in home cinema.

My Marantz NR-1711 seems typical of a modestly priced receiver. Its last year's model. It has 2 sets of RGB input phonos, labelled "DVD" and "media player", and one set of RGB output phonos labelled "monitor". Its has 3 composite video in phonos, and one composite video out phono.

Nope. Those aren’t RGB inputs, they’re component video, which is not the same thing. Yes, the component video jacks are colored red, green, and blue, but they aren’t carrying RGB signals.

[coromonadalix]

@ Tooki   pls correct your sentence

YPbPr

YPbPr or Y'PbPr, also written as YPBPR, is a color space used in video electronics, in particular in reference to component video cables. Like YCbCr,

it is based on gamma corrected RGB primaries; the two are numerically equivalent but YPBPR is designed for use in analog systems while YCBCR is intended for digital video.

Wikipedia

they are RGB, but more

https://techyoulike.com/what-do-y-pb-and-pr-stand-for/

[tooki]

In games, even offline, like shooter's or racing games, I just want to minimize lag, from any extra digital audio processing. I read some article, and some setups, like optical, will add dozens or hundreds of ms of lag. Some people have issues like that with watching movies and streaming too.

...
In games, even offline, like shooter's or racing games, I just want to minimize lag, from any extra digital audio processing. I read some article, and some setups, like optical, will add dozens or hundreds of ms of lag. Some people have issues like that with watching movies and streaming too.
...

If you want to minimize lag, all-analog is the way to go; not optical or coaxial. As a rule of thumb, look for receivers without HDMI; is a good chance to have an all-analog chain available. As side-note, during today's thrifting I've seen two receivers with 5.1 analog inputs: Panasonic for 30.00CAD and Pioneer for 49.99CAD.
Edit: all-analog chains are still easy to repair...

If there is input lag from digital inputs on an AV receiver, that’s due to a poor design, not an inherent lag in the format. According to https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/the-problem-with-the-latency-lag-and-5-1-audio-out-and-the-modded-drivers.264461/page-2, Denon receivers of the 1900 series I mention above have input latency on digital of between 0 and 2ms. Adding surround decoding (regardless of whether analog or digital input) adds up to 20ms. That is one single frame of 50fps video, maximum.

It sounds like the surround encoders on PCs add a lot of latency, unfortunately. So optical digital stereo would work well since that can be transmitted as uncompressed audio, but the only way to get uncompressed 6-channel audio is over HDMI.

So in practice I agree with the recommendation of just using a cheap used receiver with external multichannel inputs, connected to the analog multichannel outputs of your sound card.

[tooki]

@ Tooki   pls correct your sentence

YPbPr

YPbPr or Y'PbPr, also written as YPBPR, is a color space used in video electronics, in particular in reference to component video cables. Like YCbCr,

it is based on gamma corrected RGB primaries; the two are numerically equivalent but YPBPR is designed for use in analog systems while YCBCR is intended for digital video.

Wikipedia

they are RGB, but more

https://techyoulike.com/what-do-y-pb-and-pr-stand-for/

There is nothing for me to fix: my statement is absolutely correct as originally worded.

“RGB input” means an input that accepts a red channel on one signal line, green on another, and blue on another, and sync either embedded in green (typically) or on individual lines. Examples of this are VGA and the optional RGB support in SCART.

If you connect an RGB signal to a component video input, you’ll get garbage, because component video is not RGB video. It gets transformed to RGB at some point in the playback chain, but it’s not RGB at the input, which is what we are talking about.

[coppice]

Current AV receivers have some weird choices. Most only have stereo connexions for the analogue inputs, yet fill up the back panel with lots of RGB and composite analogue video inputs and outputs that I can't imagine many people using in 2024. An input is good, for hooking up that old VHS or laserdisc player you still have treasured media for, but who still needs an RGB analogue output?

I don't know what you're talking about.

Modern AV receivers are dominated by HDMI inputs. And some analog audio for sure. Usually some digital audio inputs too.

As you depart from the entry level models, analog video inputs are added, then S-Video, and then higher still, maybe a component video input. Nobody (AFAIK) puts RGB inputs on them, that's really never been a thing in home cinema.

My Marantz NR-1711 seems typical of a modestly priced receiver. Its last year's model. It has 2 sets of RGB input phonos, labelled "DVD" and "media player", and one set of RGB output phonos labelled "monitor". Its has 3 composite video in phonos, and one composite video out phono.

Nope. Those aren’t RGB inputs, they’re component video, which is not the same thing. Yes, the component video jacks are colored red, green, and blue, but they aren’t carrying RGB signals.

That actually depends on the mode they are in. They can be RGB or one of the corollaries, like YPbPr. Those corollaries are just a rehashed gamma corrected version of RGB.

[MathWizard]

Ok at some point I'll want to try the digital stuff, and even try using audio over HDMI or something else without compression.

Ok I had it working last night, after cutting open my RCA speaker cables, I had all 5 regular speakers working, with EXT. IN selected. I'm not sure of all the other settings, but things like front/rear levels were all set to 0, and still are.

Yeah if the preamp is just some small signal amp, yeah into 4ohms, I should not have hooked it up, but I left it over night, and still had audio this morning.

But then I turned off the AVR, and wired the sub-woofer back into the Logitech amp, and wired the sub input on the Logitech, to an RCA cable, all with correct polarity, and plugged that into the pre-amp RCA woofer jack.

But now since turning it back on, I can't get any audio output. I've repeatably set the input to EXT. IN, my soundcard and windows show they haven't changed in the few minutes it took to hook it up. All the cables/wires are still connected. Sweep to max volume, muted/un muted, nothing. I hear lot's of relays working, maybe some are not.

I hope this isn't a real problem, but after searching around, and reading the instructions, and using the remote too, I don't get why it's not working.

The AVR display lists EXT. IN as input, it lists another thing beside it sometimes, like TV/DBS or Tuner. It was on TV/DBS since it was working, and I've had it back on that too, now. I've tried AUTO, it flips through stuff but it didn't pick the EXT in as input, even though it should have the only signal.


I only have till tomorrow to return if I don't want to try fixing it. Surely this is just some setting thing tho please

[coppice]

Ok at some point I'll want to try the digital stuff, and even try using audio over HDMI or something else without compression.

Audio over HDMI avoids the compression delays that plague most digital options available on modern equipment. The display may introduce delays in HDMI audio, to match the delays it introduces in the video for smoothing purposes. However, if you want responsive video you need to put the display in its low delay gaming/PC mode, and delays won't be added to the audio or video. The HDMI audio delay is really no worse than any other PC to speaker/headphone pathway.

[MathWizard]

This has optical audio, so I can try that too if I find a cable.

But when I turn off the AVR, and turn it back on, the STBY LED blinks a bit while the AVR checks different inputs, it settles on the correct EXT.IN and still TV/DBS as video I guess, and then I hear a relay click, and around that time the STBY LED stays solid. But still no sound.