Author Topic: Next repair, HP3456A (o;  (Read 16887 times)

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Offline MadTux

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2014, 01:52:06 pm »
Hmm..directly replacing the MK4118 with 6116 doesn't work....no display at all now ;-)

No problem, I did that work for you. :)
In the attachment is the RAM adapter I designed for the 3456A, it uses a SMD CXK5816
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/C/X/K/5/CXK5816.shtml
and some resistor-diode logic to combine the separated address bus of both MOSTEK 4118s into one.
CXK5816 is pin compatible with the 6116, as far as I can see.

 You can also permute the address lines as well as you can permute the data lines between each other for easy routing, since nothing is stored in ram initially.

Schematic is a slightly chaotic eagle file, but it might help you to design an adapter yourself. I used a 10k resistor, IIRC.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 01:57:12 pm by MadTux »
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2014, 05:04:39 pm »
A really weird schematic you have (o;

You tie /CE to VCC via R1?
Though in the layout you have /CE fixed to GND.

Wonder why the 6116 chips are not working out of the box, as they can be connected 1-to-1 leaving A10 tied to VCC, which doesn't hurt at all....

Let's see what other RAM chips I have collected over the years...


 

Offline MadTux

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2014, 07:17:42 pm »
No idea why the 6116 doesn't work, if it's plugged directly into socket, A10 is on 5V => high, thereby no floating pin, see no reason not to work.

Maybe it's too fast. I had that too, when I replaced the ROM with a new 70ns one. Old 150ns 27C512 worked fine though. The CXK5816 I use is a 150ns modell. Original Mk4118s are 200ns

 
My circuit:
Package of CXK5816 in schematic was just a part that matched the CXK5816 pinout, so just look at pin number and signal name.

Both MOSTEK 4118 /CS lines are put onto N-doped side of a diode. P-doped sides of diodes are connected together to /OE of CXK5816 and pulled high by 10k resistor. (simple AND gate)

So if both Mk4118 are disabled, both /CS are high, =>no current trough diodes => /OE of CXK5816 is high => CXK5816 disabled

If any of both Mk4118 /CS lines is pulled low, diode acts a 0 Ohm resistor (with a slight voltage offset caused by the PN junction, but still logic low) and pulls the /OE of the CXK5816 low, thus enabling  the chip (need to disable it when reading data from ROM or IO).

Futhermore the /CS lines of the Mk4118 are connected to the theroretical MSB address line of the CXK5816 (practically you can use any address line, because mathematically the same, writes then to addresses mod 2, 4, 8, 16 etc.), thereby banking the memory. (Low address range 0-1KByte: /CS1=0 /CS0=1, High address range 1-2KByte: /CS1=1 /CS0=0)

« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 07:44:38 pm by MadTux »
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2014, 01:57:39 pm »
Found the bugger (o;

A fine hairline on the bottom side on one of the RAM chips..shorting A1 and D7...

Now I can switch between Volts, Ohm, but the display shows  ".OL" and then after few seconds it shows the voltage correctly....then hearing a relay and it shows ".OL" again...

So it is almost fixed now ;-)


BTW: I wanted to test with the board from my other 3456A, but that one looks newer...just one ROM and one RAM chip....


Letting it run now with a 12R resistor connected....shows correctly "12.145"....and suddenly switches to "026.00", then to "679.00" and then back again to "12.145"....

« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 02:04:38 pm by davorin »
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2014, 02:44:58 pm »
Ah okay....test number 4 fails...showing "-4.00000" on the display...

 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2014, 04:42:01 pm »
Debugging now the ADC section....

When shorting the input with jumper 29 to GND, it still displays the "Overload"....when shorting the input to +5V DC, then "0.0200" is displayed...

Attached a picture when applying a 1.5V battery to the front terminal, with auto-range off, and range set to 10V DC.

Upper trace is TP402, the integrator output...lower trace is TP401, the ADC input...


 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2014, 02:47:42 pm »
Hmm...after few days when powering up my 3456A seems to measure again normally....also hammering on the PCB with a screwdriver doesn't show anything...

Anyone experienced some thermal problems with some OP-Amps?

At least I have ordered now some LF356 (LF351 weren't available) and some LM101AH in TO package...

Picture below shows TP402 (top) TP303 (bottom) measuring a 12R resistor....

 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2014, 05:21:53 pm »
Doesn't seem to be a thermal problem....works for a while, then not, then work again....

Below two screens with TP402 on top and the amplifier input Q311...
Both dumps show the output when measuring a 9V battery on the 10V range...

First dump is normal, second dump is when it just displays "OL"....

 

Offline FrankenPC

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2014, 05:36:05 pm »
Isn't there a problem with the spring loaded board interconnects causing spurious disconnect issues?  Are the gold connector plates bolted down or held down with rivets?
Chinglish poetry: In the hot summer. In the car ran full steam. It tastes strange. For this worry? With this fan will bring you a cool summer. Suitable for all kinds of cars. Agricultural vehicles. Van. Tricycle.
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2014, 05:56:22 pm »
No screws as in my other 3456A, just black plastic rivets...

As you mention it....lifting the 3456a up a little and drop it on the table displays the "OL" again....some more lifting/dropping displays the voltage again...

Guess I have lots of spare LF356/LM101AH then (o;


Is there a place where people can post/lookup what faults were discovered and how it was fixed per model?

 

Offline FrankenPC

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2014, 07:50:48 pm »
Is there a place where people can post/lookup what faults were discovered and how it was fixed per model?

Not that I know of.   But that doesn't necessarily mean anything.  I did get some REALLY useful tips in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp3456a-service-notes-for-owners-info!/msg144820/#msg144820

There is an attachment in the top post which has a bundle of service notes that may help.
Chinglish poetry: In the hot summer. In the car ran full steam. It tastes strange. For this worry? With this fan will bring you a cool summer. Suitable for all kinds of cars. Agricultural vehicles. Van. Tricycle.
 

Offline TonyGreene

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2014, 09:08:18 pm »
If you can narrow it down to the bad board, I may be able to help.  I have a parts unit I keep, that the A20 Input/Switching board is bad.  All the rest of it is OK.
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2014, 09:40:12 pm »
Hi Tony

I probably didn't understand you correctly....you have a 3456A to sell also with a non working A20 board?

 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2014, 05:51:14 pm »
Hmm..replacing the rivets with screws hasn't brought the success I hoped....still displays overload sometimes....

Started resoldering the analogue board now...or the AC converter...as it displays error "-9" when pressing TEST.

Must be some interconnect missing from the logic to analogue board as I saw few times that no input relay was switched on at all...leaving the ADC floating....

« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 05:55:45 pm by davorin »
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2014, 06:07:04 pm »
But much better now...lifting each side 5cm and let it drop on the table it doesn't show "OL" again...

Only error "-9.00000" is constant now....some AC offset error apparently...

 

Offline MadTux

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2014, 09:23:36 pm »
BTW, you can get the value of the error:
get into 6 digit mode by: '6'; 'store'; '9'-ndigits (not important for this test)
Goto test mode and press 'test number' in this case 9, 'store' and then '5'

Good value for test '9' is +0.005
One of my meters has that fault too, but it can miraculously eliminated by switching to the rear input, somhow only affects the front input.
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2014, 05:31:08 pm »
Shows "+14.25" for me....seems too bad (o;

And what's even worse...still haven't found the cause for the "OL" error....I let it run during the night....and in the morning it had the "OL" error again....
Lifting and dropping the 3456A doesn't produce the error....

Guess I need to resolder all affected boards now...

 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2014, 10:15:01 am »
Resoldered the whole analogue board now..and seems to stable so far (o;

Interestingly the AC self test shows also different values for front and rear panel...

Front: +9.979
Back: +0.020

Selftest runs successfully when choosing the rear panel (o;

 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2014, 01:56:06 pm »
Hmmm..driving me nuts this 3456A (o;

Putting all together and installed the metal covers...now again error "-4.00000"
This time no "OL" display....just some floating voltage displayed...and hear no relay clicking...

Ordered some Intel 8243 peripheral extender which drives the relay transistors....

 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2014, 09:02:12 am »
Seems my last post was lost yesterday...

Finally found the bugger as I investigated why sometimes the relays are not switched between 10V and 100/1000V mode...

First I suspected the Intel 8243 peripheral extender, but found out the the PROG pin was floating from time to time.
I could then track it down to the red and bad IC socket for U13 on the A30 board as pin 25 of the 8048 microcontroller didn't made contact.


Just need to figure out why the selftest reports "-9.00000" when the front panel is active, but not when I switch to back panel connectors (o;

 


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