I need a proper video microscope.

[EEVblog]

As the title says, I think I need to spend some $$$ and do this properly. The microscope work on my latest video is ugly and tedious.

Preferably I want something I can use with my existing Canon video camera, because using a USB cam and capturing on a PC just screws with my workflow. But will do that if I have to.
Something from maybe 40x to 200x would be nice, with quality optics, not some shitty ebay USB microscope.

Opinions?

[EEVblog]

I just stuck my smaller x10 Opteka macro lens on the front of my camera with my existing x10 lens, and it works pretty good.
A fair bit of distortion on the outside at full zoom on the camera, but otherwise not bad at all.
Maybe I could screw in as many of these needed? Two and three lens seems workable at least.

I'm wondering if the larger 77mm version would offer less edge distortion over my standard 52mm lens?
So 52mm lens to screw into the camera, then two 72mm lenses on front? 

[EEVblog]

Some quick measurements show the extra x10 macro lens gives about x2 zoom above just one x10 macro lens.

For full zoom on my camera, I get:
3mm field of view for 3 x10 lenses
7mm field of view for 2 x10 lenses
14mm field of view for my normal x10 lens.
Diminishing returns it seems.
But still better than I have at the moment.

[jmole]

I know you're not a big DSLR guy, but getting yourself a nice macro lens with some extension tubes and shooting with the "crop mode" on most DSLRs (e.g. Canon 600D) will get you pretty extreme magnification.

[Lightages]

You should also look for chromatic aberration as you add more lenses too. It gets ugly fast.

[Rick Law]

I just stuck my smaller x10 Opteka macro lens on the front of my camera with my existing x10 lens, and it works pretty good.
A fair bit of distortion on the outside at full zoom on the camera, but otherwise not bad at all....

Dave, I don't know how much you do or don't know about photography, hope this general info helps.

You did not say if you want it for stills or for motion/video.  For video/motion, you need adequate sharpness but the contrast and color responsiveness matters more than sharpness.  For most still, you need the sharpness.  Unless you are aware, lost of contrast can easily be masked as a lighting problem.  Contrast can be adjusted with most camcorder/camera (at a lost of details).

- In general, a fixed focal length lens provides the best sharpness and best contrast.
- In general, a zoom is not as good as fix focal but better then lens modifier (like x2, x5, x10 adaptors).
- In general, the smaller the zoom factor, the better image.

If you really want top quality, get those camera with removable lens.  Some camcorder do have removal lens, but they are expensive.  Jmole's suggestion about DSLR is a good one.  Get one lens for each range rather than a wide-value zoom.  Some DSLR can also record video.  For in-place (not moving around much) filming, you can't beat a good (D)SLR with fixed (non-zoom) lens.  A good barrel or tube extension with a good macro lens can almost compete with optical microscope with camera adapter.  Good optical microscope will be able to focus in much closer.

Focal length adapter is rather like a male/female electrical plug adapter.  Plugging a plug into an adapter with right plug-end to fit is not too bad; string 4 of them together to get the right plug-end and you are sure to have problems.

>> I look at the focal length adapters like well, USB Digital Scopes.  It does have a role, but not like a bench scope (fix focal lens) <<

If you must use focal length adapter/multiplier... beside distortion, watch for lost of contrast and test your setup with the camera built-in lens set to 1x zoom (no zoom).  Lost of contrast is hard to see off-hand.  Some would just think they have a lighting problem.

So, if you don't want to re-purchase a whole new setup and stay with your existing Cannon, you are pretty much stuck with multiple focal length adapters.  Get adapters with good aperture and contrast will lessen the problem.

If you want to repurchase but stay with Camcorder rather than DSLR, look at those with good lens.  Sony use Carl Zeiss lens, can't get much better than that.  (Well, of course there is better.)  I am not sure Sony makes removable lens Camcorder.  Shop for good lens aperture instead of big zoom - you will be focus length adapting anyway so big zoom is of little use.

Few would argue Carl Zeiss being top, when it come to 2nd tier, I like Nikon.  Nikon came from the camera side of the world vs Sony's electronic side of the world.  You may find some Nikon Camcorders with removal lens (not sure, never tried.)  I think Nikon make much better lens than Cannon, but that is not as clear cut as comparing 2nd tier to Carl Zeiss.  (Cannon makes everything from copiers to camera, they are not "a camera company from birth")

Rick

[Ed.Kloonk]

Dave, whilst I don't seem to have any solutions but after watching the LCD panel teardown today, can I request that you give us some scale reference of size of the object being magnified.

A saw a glimpse of screw-driver at one stage but don't know how big the screwdriver is. No biggie, I mean I'm not losing sleep, or find it all that irritating. Not as irritating as, for example, seeing a U.S. dime (or is it a nickel?) next to an object. 

[ecat]

Looking at the Opteka Macro lens and other options after your last video the word on the net is to use extension tubes, a reversing adapter and some other standard lens parts. Way beyond my knowledge of photography but here's a couple of links to get you started

http://nikonrumors.com/forum/topic.php?id=565
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/663112 ( Warning! Contains images of fly sex )

[baljemmett]

(Cannon makes everything from copiers to camera, they are not "a camera company from birth")

Well, Canon's first product was a camera -- the Kwanon I, from memory, with the spelling Canon only being adopted with the introduction of the Mk. II -- so they aren't solely a camera company, but they certainly have built cameras from birth   Nikon have stuck to cameras and optics for the most part but similarly don't just build photographic kit; microscopes, binoculars and opthalmics all feature in their range too.

[KJDS]

If you want to repurchase but stay with Camcorder rather than DSLR, look at those with good lens.  Sony use Carl Zeiss lens, can't get much better than that.  (Well, of course there is better.)  I am not sure Sony makes removable lens Camcorder.  Shop for good lens aperture instead of big zoom - you will be focus length adapting anyway so big zoom is of little use.

I've got a Sony Power HAD DXC-950P in front of me with a microscope lens on it. Some day I'll find the time to test it. I'll post a report once I see how well it works. I've also got a JVC in a similar set up that needs testing.

[lgbeno]

At a previous employer we had a lens adaptor that fit into the microscope eyepiece for taking still shots.  It worked pretty sweet, only issue is that you can't look in at the same time.  Ignore the prices but this is sort of what I'm talking about:

http://www.microscopeworld.com/c-332-olympus.aspx

What about your fancy Mantis scope?

[Rick Law]

(Cannon makes everything from copiers to camera, they are not "a camera company from birth")

Well, Canon's first product was a camera -- the Kwanon I, from memory, ...

Interesting,  I just looked it up and you are right!  They made (what looks like) a Leica imitation.  I remember wrong!

Speaking of Leica, I love to have a Leica M4.  Too bad you can hardly find film for it anymore...

Rick

[EEVblog]

I know you're not a big DSLR guy, but getting yourself a nice macro lens with some extension tubes and shooting with the "crop mode" on most DSLRs (e.g. Canon 600D) will get you pretty extreme magnification.

Like what magnification for example?
Is it better than my 3mm field of view on my Canon video camera?

[EEVblog]

You did not say if you want it for stills or for motion/video. 

I'm a video blogger, so video of course 

If you really want top quality, get those camera with removable lens.  Some camcorder do have removal lens, but they are expensive.  Jmole's suggestion about DSLR is a good one.  Get one lens for each range rather than a wide-value zoom.  Some DSLR can also record video.  For in-place (not moving around much) filming, you can't beat a good (D)SLR with fixed (non-zoom) lens.  A good barrel or tube extension with a good macro lens can almost compete with optical microscope with camera adapter.  Good optical microscope will be able to focus in much closer.

Yes, but how much equivalent magnification can I expect?

So, if you don't want to re-purchase a whole new setup and stay with your existing Cannon, you are pretty much stuck with multiple focal length adapters.  Get adapters with good aperture and contrast will lessen the problem.

If you want to repurchase but stay with Camcorder rather than DSLR, look at those with good lens.  Sony use Carl Zeiss lens, can't get much better than that.  (Well, of course there is better.)  I am not sure Sony makes removable lens Camcorder.  Shop for good lens aperture instead of big zoom - you will be focus length adapting anyway so big zoom is of little use.

I won't change camcorders, but am happy to buy a cheap DSLR or Micro 4/3 EVIL camera and a suitable lens for the task.
Would probably have to buy that anyway if I got a good tri port microscope, as USB microscope cameras suck in many ways.

Few would argue Carl Zeiss being top, when it come to 2nd tier, I like Nikon.  Nikon came from the camera side of the world vs Sony's electronic side of the world.  You may find some Nikon Camcorders with removal lens (not sure, never tried.)  I think Nikon make much better lens than Cannon, but that is not as clear cut as comparing 2nd tier to Carl Zeiss.  (Cannon makes everything from copiers to camera, they are not "a camera company from birth")

The Olympus fanboys might have something to say about that.  %-B

[EEVblog]

What about your fancy Mantis scope?

It's useless for video, and only does x20 tops. My current Canon with x10 lens can do as good or better.

[Rick Law]

You did not say if you want it for stills or for motion/video. 

I'm a video blogger, so video of course 
 

Ah, I was not sure if you were using it for super close-up of specific part or component only.  That being the case, I will adjust the rest of my comments to follow.

If you really want top quality, get those camera with removable lens.  Some camcorder do have removal lens, but they are expensive.  Jmole's suggestion about DSLR is a good one.  Get one lens for each range rather than a wide-value zoom.  Some DSLR can also record video.  For in-place (not moving around much) filming, you can't beat a good (D)SLR with fixed (non-zoom) lens.  A good barrel or tube extension with a good macro lens can almost compete with optical microscope with camera adapter.  Good optical microscope will be able to focus in much closer.

Yes, but how much equivalent magnification can I expect?

 

This is a solution for mainly for stills of one or a few components.  You can reach 40x easy; I have seen it done.  But with videos, there is a problem: your lens need to be very close to the subject (cm to sub-cm range max).  With videos, you need some space between the camera and your stuff being shown so you can manipulate them live.  I would not expect this solution to work well if it is mainly video.

For the comments below, I am assuming 1-2 meters is the preferred distance.

cm range:  your best solution may be to get an adapter to a soldering microscope.  Generic microscope doesn’t leave you a lot of room to manipulate things.  A soldering scope has to leave enough space for you to work.  So that could be best solution (in my opinion) for magnification, resolution, and practicality trade-off.

Meter(s) range: The barrel extension breaks down for this distance and likely not work well.  Here is another solution that “should work” but I have not seen it use this close (below 2meter away): use an astronomy telescope with camera adapter.  I have a refractor telescope Meade ETX 90/EC (with a camera adaptor available which I did not buy).  I like watching stars, but I also watch animals.  I can pull things in super close (see the face of the squirrel on the tree 40 feet away).  My telescope can only focus well when the subject exceeded 30-40 feet-ish (10 meter) from the telescope or perhaps more.  Focus adjustments varies from telescope to telescope.  There are those with wider focus adjustment.  I have not tried but I can see it is reasonable to get it into good focus for 1-2 meter range.  It will depend on your camera's ability to focus, the telescope, and the eye-piece extender tube (if available for that model).

Also, in the hobbyist astronomy circle, some fit a camera directly on an eye piece instead of a quality camera adapter which replaces the eye-piece.  I have taken picture (camera-to-eye-peice) of animals and birds on a tree.  Camera-to-eye-piece is easier and I suggest the first thing to try.  Contact your local astronomy store and see what they suggest or do they have anything to try.  Then you can see if your camera+telescope is a ready-to-go solution or not.

There is one big plus with this solution:  Astro telescope often comes with electronic control so you can track the stars as it moves across the sky.  I have a hand-held control for the ETX90/EC (EC for electronic control), and I can use the RS232 port and let the PC do the driving.  You can actually do a simple left-right-up-down camera control panel right on your bench (or even program it to follow your hand.)

I assume you want ready-to-go solutions and  don’t want to go to this extend, but here is some extra info just in case: Astronomy telescope length adapters are often tubes with screw threads at both ends.  Some doesn’t even use screws.  Physics say a short extension should allow it to focus in on closer things.  Perhaps you have a friend to machine an empty tube with threads at both ends.  Try using PVC pipe and duct tape to test for the length of extension needed for 1-2 meter focus, and then have a buddy machine a short tube extension.

Few would argue Carl Zeiss being top, when it come to 2nd tier, I like Nikon.  …

The Olympus fanboys might have something to say about that.  %-B

Ahem, my opinion is: they will be wrong…  Like comparing a Fluke 87V to a Victor 86C…  (Just fanning the fire a bit…)

I was for a brief time a full-time professional photographer and I did free-lens portraits and weddings for much longer.  While I have not done professional photography for a while now, but any lens that cannot resolve individual hair for a head-shot at 20 feet is sub-par to me.

Confession time: photography is what took me away from my childhood interest in electronics.  I found it much easier to attract girls with a good photograph of her than a good soldering job on a PCB.

[EEVblog]

This is a solution for mainly for stills of one or a few components.  You can reach 40x easy; I have seen it done.  But with videos, there is a problem: your lens need to be very close to the subject (cm to sub-cm range max).  With videos, you need some space between the camera and your stuff being shown so you can manipulate them live.  I would not expect this solution to work well if it is mainly video.

No, I don't really need to manipulate anything. I can move the abject around under the lens.
It would be nice to get a pointer in their nearly horizontal, but it's not essential.

For the comments below, I am assuming 1-2 meters is the preferred distance.

1-2 meters working distance? 
No, I'd be happy with 1-2cm working distance.

There is one big plus with this solution:  Astro telescope often comes with electronic control so you can track the stars as it moves across the sky.  I have a hand-held control for the ETX90/EC (EC for electronic control), and I can use the RS232 port and let the PC do the driving.  You can actually do a simple left-right-up-down camera control panel right on your bench (or even program it to follow your hand.)

I assume you want ready-to-go solutions and  don’t want to go to this extend, but here is some extra info just in case: Astronomy telescope length adapters are often tubes with screw threads at both ends.  Some doesn’t even use screws.  Physics say a short extension should allow it to focus in on closer things.  Perhaps you have a friend to machine an empty tube with threads at both ends.  Try using PVC pipe and duct tape to test for the length of extension needed for 1-2 meter focus, and then have a buddy machine a short tube extension.

1m-2m range is not really practical for me. I need to easily attach my video camera or DSLR camera and watch the viewfinder as I talk.
Perhaps I could have an external monitor at a lower level, but now we are getting real fussy.
Once again, what equivalent zoom range could I expect form such a setup compared to a microscope solution?

Ahem, my opinion is: they will be wrong…  Like comparing a Fluke 87V to a Victor 86C…  (Just fanning the fire a bit…)

Actually, Olympus have always made some the finest optics in the world for microscopes and cameras.

[jmole]

I know you're not a big DSLR guy, but getting yourself a nice macro lens with some extension tubes and shooting with the "crop mode" on most DSLRs (e.g. Canon 600D) will get you pretty extreme magnification.

Like what magnification for example?
Is it better than my 3mm field of view on my Canon video camera?

typically macro lenses aren't spec'd in terms of field of view.

Take for example, this: http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10051_10051_171617_-1

It specs a 5x magnification, i.e., the image on the sensor will be 5x the size of the image in real life.

" at its maximum magnification, you can fill a 35mm frame with a grain of rice".

Now consider that shooting a 600D in 3x video crop mode, you're talking about 1.6x * 3x, plus 5x from the lens = 25x magnification.

600D has a APS-C sensor, which is 1/1.6 the size of a 35mm "full frame" camera. In crop mode, you can use 1/3 of the sensor at full 1920x1080 HD video (http://philipbloom.net/forum/threads/why-the-3x-crop-mode-on-the-canon-600d-is-so-amazing.3253/)

So if you can fill a full 35mm frame with a grain of rice, you've  got .208x the width of a full 35mm frame in 3x crop mode on an APS-C sensor, so you can fill a full HD frame with 1/5th a grain of rice. Hello there, Mr. 01005 component!

Best bet is to find a high-end camera dealer, and test out the combo yourself. If you were in NY, I'd recommend B&H, but I have no idea about Australia.

Good luck!

[Rick Law]

.......
No, I don't really need to manipulate anything. I can move the abject around under the lens.
It would be nice to get a pointer in their nearly horizontal, but it's not essential.

1-2 meters working distance? 
No, I'd be happy with 1-2cm working distance.
......

Great, then barrel extension is a great solution since that works horizontally as well as any other position.

I just reviewed all the comments so far.  I can't find where you might have mention your camcorder model other than it being a Cannon.

Two questions:
1. Is the lens removable?
2. What replacement macro lens can you get for your model camcorder?

If either of the above is NO, then you need to switch over to video-enabled DSLR to use this solution.  The so call "prosumer" class DSLR should have removal lens, video with sound, and with a good selection of replacement macro lens.  The extension barrel is manufacturer specific like lens, and different macro lens will have different barrel it can use/take.  They must be matched.

Last time I purchased a lens was just a bit over 5 years ago, so price estimate is just to give a rough idea and I am guessing the price change for for 5 years.

I am not sure how much things cost where you are; in the USA, reasonable quality DSLR with video capability and replaceable lens are in the $500 range.    Good macro lens are in the $200 range.  Barrels are typically cheaper than lens.  The final cost and magnification capability of course will depend on your actual camera and lens choice.  I would guess in the USA, it should not exceed $1k for a very high quality camera+len+all mounting hardware.  Typical tripots wont work well, you'll need those mounting for desktop operation.

Single lens-multiplier/lens-adapter (same thing, different people call it different) is a reasonable good solution particularly if you can get a macro lens with large aperture.  Large aperture lens must be designed to deal with edge better since the lens is bigger.  That will lessen any ill effect caused by lens-multipliers.  Still, I would not recommend putting on multiple.

Pay special attention to lighting.  Good lighting pushes the optics to operate in the range of best tolerance.  Depth of field is greatest when lighting is strong.

I hope you have a good camera store near by.  Some of the stuff you really have to try in person.

Good luck!

Rick

[jmole]

Here's a sample of the 5X mode on the lens I mentioned on a APS-C camera: http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/permalink/mo2XO2B7K6L1QDL/B00009XVD5/ref=cm_ciu_images_pl_link

Now imagine 1/3 of that image (1/9th the area), in full HD. You're talking 1.4mm x 0.9mm, in 1080p resolution. Not too shabby. Just need tons of light, a high F-stop, and good focus.

[Rick Law]

Take for example, this: http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10051_10051_171617_-1

Best bet is to find a high-end camera dealer, and test out the combo yourself. If you were in NY, I'd recommend B&H, but I have no idea about Australia.

Good luck!

Wow, you are recommending the really top end!  I was suggesting stuff around the enthusiast class.  I didn't dare to recommend such top-end equipment.

But I absolutely agree, personal visit to the high-end camera store is a must.  Cheap everyday camera store is not going to have any of these specialized equipment.

Nothing like snapping a few and see the quality difference.   Optics is like well, DMM's.   Better one costs.

Rick

[baljemmett]

Wow, you are recommending the really top end!  I was suggesting stuff around the enthusiast class.  I didn't dare to recommend such top-end equipment.

Little aside regarding enthusiast-class kit -- I had an e-mail from a supplier this morning telling me about Canon's 'summer cashback' promotion, which looked like it could knock 10% or more off a 600D body + EF-S macro lens (not MP-E, obviously!) bought in combination.  Don't know if they're going to be offering a corresponding 'winter cashback' for our antipodean friends though...

No idea whether Dave would fancy going with a Canon (to match his camcorder) or something else / cheaper for this, but thought it might be worth a mention!

[baljemmett]

(Veering rather off-topic here, sorry Dave -- will try and keep it down!)

Well, Canon's first product was a camera -- the Kwanon I, from memory, ...

Interesting,  I just looked it up and you are right!  They made (what looks like) a Leica imitation.  I remember wrong!

Yep, everyone and his dog were making Leica knockoffs back then -- apart from the Russians, perhaps, who were making Contax knockoffs in Kiev...  I believe the early Canon Leica-alikes are pretty pricey on the second-hand market or I'd have picked one up; as it is I only have the 7 (with its dedicated 50mm f/0.95), a few Canonets and a Kiev in the rangefinder wing of my collection.

Speaking of Leica, I love to have a Leica M4.  Too bad you can hardly find film for it anymore...

Yes indeed -- if I were rich man, and all that.  Going rate appears to start at what I paid for my 7 and goes up, and up...  Film-wise I've recently started feeding my machines some Ilford emulsions which are reasonably easy to come by around here, but now that Ektachrome's gone and my stock is dwindling I need to find a new E-6 film I like -- something by Fuji, no doubt.  I can feel the day coming when I will be the proud owner of several dozen camera-shaped paperweights

[EEVblog]

http://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10051_10051_171617_-1
It specs a 5x magnification, i.e., the image on the sensor will be 5x the size of the image in real life.
" at its maximum magnification, you can fill a 35mm frame with a grain of rice".

Great info there, thanks.
$1K for a lens though - ouch.

[Lightages]

You don't need to spend $1k. If you have a 50mm normal lens, you can reverse mount it using an adapter and it then becomes a macro lens. And/or you can mount it using extension tubes as mentioned earlier and have more magnification.