Solder Fume Extractors

[nidlaX]

I just received a package from South Korea today, more info to come later tonight.

[cdev]

Today was my HRV core washing day (it needs filter cleaning and a spray with a hose every few months)

So after it came inside and was sitting in the sink I took a picture of it. Its pretty big.

This is after it was power washed, I think the brownish color is the quite yellowish light from our kitchen light/ceiling fan adding with outdoor light and an LED lamp. Its not dirty.

You can see how big it is, it wont fit in the sink unless I move the faucet way to the side. This particular HRV can circulate ~ 150 cfm. (from memory)

Its a home HRV, not industrial.

This likely is the best way to deal with solder fumes year round. Extract the heat from them, while sending them on their merry way outdoors.  Replacing the air with fresh but pre-warmed outdoor air.

The filters are washable and their main function is keeping bugs, airborne particles/dust out of the system.  Indoor pollutants can impact peoples health a great deal. Continuous, quiet ventilation is a very good thing.  If you can site returns behind your workbench, they move enough air that your solder fumes will just vanish into them.

[KL27x]

There are a lot of crazy fume extractors in this thread!

After getting a headache an hour or so following a long session, I hot snotted a computer PSU fan to the bottom of my microscope head, powered from a small transformer. A few weeks later, I finally added an on/off switch instead of letting it run 24/7. I dunno what's in the solder fumes, but it seems like it isn't noticeable to me as long as it isn't wafting directly under my nose. 
 
The warnings on all the fluxes I have used have stated it is an irritant is all. I'm sure putting your face 1 foot directly above a candle for 3 hours a day would be irritating, too, with the smoke plume within breating distance. I'm not convinced the average joe needs a fume hood or extraction to the outdoors for regular leaded solder fluxes.

[ciccio]

I use soldering irons since high school days (1965....) and since then I'm costantly fighting with soldering fumes.
Sometimes I had to solder more than 1000 joints a day, and I was worried, so I tested anything I could find.
Fans with filter: I bough one,  similar to the Dave's one, but with an extension arm.
It works only if located near the tip (max 20 cm) so it is not very useful.
(Somebody can explain why soldering smoke seem to swirl always against your face?)
I built a big plexiglass hood that stood over the bench, without blocking the light from above.
Put a couple of fans on the top to vent air and smoke  up, but fans had to run very fast (and made a lot of noise) to move the smoke away.
The solution was a localized aspiration, ot the iron's tip.
Weller made a special iron for the WTCP station (see attached photo.
I found a suitable vacuum pump, put it inside a cabinet with an home made filter, and put the cabinet under the bench.
It worked very well for some years.
It is not suitable for very fine work, but it saved my lungs...
A fume extraction tube can be fitted to most soldering iron, there are companies that make "universal" kits.

[KL27x]

^Localized extraction is indeed very efficient. This makes it simple to add extraction/fan to a stereomicroscope. The fan will always be the same distance/orientation from the center of the FOV, which is more-or-less right where you will always make the fumes.

In my wishlist is to have an automatic solderwire feeder that is attached to the microscope head. It would feed the wire from 12 o'clock in the FOV, at an adjustable height under the objective to keep it as close to the pcb and to being in focus as possible.

[cdev]

I just realized today I need better eye protection. I wear glasses, Ive always worn glasses. I'm nearsighted. But as Ive gotten older when I solder often I find myself bringing the work closer and looking "over" my glasses in that way that older people do. This is not good because sometimes something will suddenly sputter. *sigh*

[chhrisedwards]

Solder creates fume that pose serious health risks like asthma if not managed properly. There are different types of solder fume extractors which used to control or reduce exposure to fumes and also prevent serious health problems. Certain applications can release more fumes or may be spread out over a larger surface area, this may require a more powerful fume extraction unit or solder fume extractors.

[cdev]

"heat recovery ventilators" are basically the ultimate fume extractors.

They really do extract the fumes, replacing them with fresh air.

I have experience with an HRV  from Fantech.

http://www.fantech.net/

Works year round, can be left running all the time, and no need to buy expensive filters. Just clean the filters, to keep them dust free.

[cdev]

I know that feeling SO well.. LOL..

In most of Australia, we aren't particularly concerned with dealing with extremes of temperature - well, mind-numbing cold anyway.  So whacking in an air-con was about as sophisticated as it got.  More recently efficiencies are becoming a subject to consider ... but (IMO) general thinking is still way behind the rest of the world.

Many years ago I pondered on the subject of thermal energy waste and bringing fresh air into a room.  I had some ideas and did some thought experiments ... and considered it as something worth doing.  I came up with a design which included dual fans and a few other features and thought it was worth a try.

Then, in a discussion far removed from my mental tinkering, someone used the term "HRV" which I hadn't heard before.  So I Googled it.

 

I knew I had a good idea.....

[nidlaX]

A quick (long overdue) update.

I bought a Zavasuction Type B extractor from their eBay store at a slight discount in exchange for posting a review. I've recorded about 20 minutes of a teardown, but haven't had any time to edit or post it. Since it might be that way for a few weeks, I'll just give a quick pro-con from using it for a few hours.

Pros:
Cheap(er) than comparable options
Works ok after you position it correctly
Adjustable airflow
Independent switches for fan and LEDs
Comes with a quality (if genuine) external power supply
Threaded inserts on top cover screws for durability when changing filters
Has built-in slots for adding c-clamps or some other method of securing it to a table
Bright and useful LED strip built-in
Uses a good NMB blower fan inside
Can be powered from lower voltages (12V) at reduced fan speed / air flow performance
Moddable, modular construction

Cons:
3D-printed construction of hose segments feels a little rough when being manipulated (might or might not be ok for durability)
No convenient / pre-built way of directing exhaust out a window
Requires clamping / weighting for balance, especially if solder holder is used
Fan is extremely loud at effective air flow speeds
Air flow could be better to allow for greater working distance between duct and workpiece
Didn't send me a US NEMA cord for the power supply (small oversight)
Fan body is cracked around screw holes (Self tappers might be too big, but small chance I might have over-torqued when re-assembling)
Doesn't have a frivolous, but cool looking LED clock display like the Type A

Overall, cool concept and a good entrant in this space, but I think you can do better in terms of functionality and value if you decide to roll your own exhanger or bath-fan / HEPA filter based extractor. Given the footprint of the unit, it might be unreasonable to expect better noise / air flow performance. Video review to follow someday...

[agehall]

Fantech (a Canadian company that is part of Kanalflakt which I think is Swedish or Finnish)

OT: LHG Kanalfläkt has been called Systemair for about 20 years now and is a Swedish company. And yes, Fantech is part of Systemair.

I started my career working for them building software for their test rigs back when I was still in high school..

[cdev]

Do you still know anybody there?

Or can you tell me what protocol I need to use to speak to my residential HRV controller board?

(Without betraying any company secrets, I don't want you to do that..)


The board uses an AVR and it has a bunch of relays and motor controllers to control the motors. I like the HRV very much. I am an enthusiastic user of their products - But I want more control than is available on the wall control panel.

I will likely try to sniff the signaling that my controller and wall control use.

I have one of their vertical HRVs. I have their fancy wall control for it. I want more control over the HRV.

As I said earlier, its also the only good way to actually extract solder fumes outside year round.

When I solder I turn the HRV on full blast in continuous mode and even in the winter, the house does not get cold as it would with two fans or a fan blowing out and dirty make up air being sucked in through cracks..

It works quite well.  Its cold here now and the HRV is on - sometimes its on all of the time.  The air coming in from outside is warmed up quite a bit by the outgoing air.

Fantech (a Canadian company that is part of Kanalflakt which I think is Swedish or Finnish)

OT: LHG Kanalfläkt has been called Systemair for about 20 years now and is a Swedish company. And yes, Fantech is part of Systemair.

I started my career working for them building software for their test rigs back when I was still in high school..

Awesome..

Where I live, there aren't very many people who use or have even heard of HRVs. Unfortunately.

[agehall]

Do you still know anybody there?

Or can you tell me what protocol I need to use to speak to my residential HRV controller board?

Unfortunately I don't have any good connections for that these days. Most of the people I knew are long gone or have no connection to the technical side. Besides, most of that stuff is probably developed outside of the HQ in Skinnskatteberg where I used to live and work.

[cdev]

Yes, this is really true.  (Rosin) flux fumes can and do cause colophony disease (i.e. asthma) if people don't take steps to not breathe them in.. 

That can be as simple as a fan to suck them away from the work area and blow them somewhere else.. Which in a closed room is dilution, not extraction.

Almost all of the so called "solder fume extractors" are just means to dilute and move air, and often remove particulates, and rarely are they even good ones. They suck the fumes away but the activated charcoal is invariably just there for show and doesn't really function to remove any toxic fumes after the very beginning.

A HEPA air cleaner works as well or better at what they do, as far as particles go, and filters are better and cost less.

However, HEPA air cleaning works best when its allowed to refilter the air in a room or building over and over and is left on all the time.

Solder creates fume that pose serious health risks like asthma if not managed properly. There are different types of solder fume extractors which used to control or reduce exposure to fumes and also prevent serious health problems. Certain applications can release more fumes or may be spread out over a larger surface area, this may require a more powerful fume extraction unit or solder fume extractors.

[cdev]

Right there you have been quite helpful.

I didn't know that information and last I looked, (quite a while ago) I was unable to find anything about Kanalflakt either, as I can't speak Swedish. (only a very little German)

Thank you.

Unfortunately I don't have any good connections for that these days. Most of the people I knew are long gone or have no connection to the technical side. Besides, most of that stuff is probably developed outside of the HQ in Skinnskatteberg where I used to live and work.

[wraper]

They suck the fumes away but the activated charcoal is invariably just there for show and doesn't really function to remove any toxic fumes after the very beginning.

A HEPA air cleaner works as well or better at what they do, as far as particles go, and filters are better and cost less.

However, HEPA air cleaning works best when its allowed to refilter the air in a room or building over and over and is left on all the time.

Sorry, but you wrote a piece of complete garbage. HEPA filter filters out only small particles but lets all toxic gases through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA. Charcoal is what absorbs toxic gases. https://science.howstuffworks.com/gas-mask2.htm

A chemical threat needs a different approach, because chemicals come as mists or vapors that are largely immune to particulate filtration. The most common approach with any organic chemical (whether it be paint fumes or a nerve toxin like Sarin) is activated charcoal.

[cdev]

You need to read up on how activated charcoal is used and how it works. Also apply some common sense.

Also, activated charcoal however its used (it also is useful orally for some kinds of poisoning) never could eliminate everything. The crucial questions here are "are 'toxic gases' present in solder fumes, if so, what are they?
Then  we have to ask, does activated charcoal remove those gases if they are there?
If yes, then How much activated charcoal is needed and how does it work,

Then how much of this toxic gas can it remove and for how long under what conditions"

Then we have to ask what happens when it can no longer aDsorb whatever it adsorbs. (note the "D") and "what happens then to these substances, are they permanently attached to the carbon?

Its not a simple thing.. especially when peoples lives are at stake.

The simple answer here is, apart from acting as a prefilter to keep big particles - visible dust out of the pleats of a HEPA filter, the use of activated charcoal in (every single non-industrial air cleaner I have seen to date) is basically for show and not likely to remove toxic chemicals except at the very beginning after its unwrapped..

because of how those cleaners are designed and the amount of carbon present is just not enough, it wont last for long because there is a lot of stuff in our air that is not toxic but still will get 'adsorbed" ruining the ability of the tiny amount of activated charcoal there to work. Its still useful though, to keep big stuff out of the HEPA filter making it last much longer. Any kind of mesh or net or cloth would do that.

Look at activated charcoal filters for industrial applications and you will immediately see what I mean. Also, you'll see that they are replaced quite frequently. Failure to do that will endanger lives.  Don't take my word for it, ask people who use them. Ask your regulatory agency that regulates industrial safety.

Definition of adsorption
:the adhesion in an extremely thin layer of molecules (as of gases, solutes, or liquids) to the surfaces of solid bodies or liquids with which they are in contact — compare absorption
— adsorptive play \-?s?rp-tiv, -?z?rp-\ adjective

They suck the fumes away but the activated charcoal is invariably just there for show and doesn't really function to remove any toxic fumes after the very beginning.

A HEPA air cleaner works as well or better at what they do, as far as particles go, and filters are better and cost less.

However, HEPA air cleaning works best when its allowed to refilter the air in a room or building over and over and is left on all the time.

Sorry, but you wrote a piece of complete garbage. HEPA filter filters out only small particles but lets all toxic gases through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA. Charcoal is what absorbs toxic gases. https://science.howstuffworks.com/gas-mask2.htm

A chemical threat needs a different approach, because chemicals come as mists or vapors that are largely immune to particulate filtration. The most common approach with any organic chemical (whether it be paint fumes or a nerve toxin like Sarin) is activated charcoal.

Yes, but...

Which Activated Carbon Should I Use?
The first decision for using carbon is to treat a liquid or vapor stream. Air is best treated using large particles of carbon to reduce the pressure drop through the bed. Smaller particles are used with liquid applications to reduce the distance the chemicals have to travel to be adsorbed inside the carbon. Whether your project treats vapor or liquid, there are different sized carbon particles available. There are all different substrates such as coal or coconut shell base carbon to consider. Talk to a General Carbon representative to get the best product for your job.

How Do I Use Activated Carbon?
Carbon is typically used in a column contactor. The columns are called adsorbers and are designed specifically for air and water. The design is engineered for loading (amount of fluid per area cross section), contact time (a minimum contact time is needed to insure required removal) and pressure drop through the adsorber (needed to size container pressure rating and fan/pump design rating). The standard General Carbon adsorbers are pre-engineered to meet all of the requirements for good adsorber design. We can also design special designs for applications outside the normal range.

How Long Does Activated Carbon Last?
Carbons capacity for chemicals depends on many things. The molecular weight of the chemical being removed, the concentration of the chemical in the stream being treated, other chemicals in the treated stream, operating temperature of the system and polarity of the chemicals being removed all affect the life of a carbon bed. Your General Carbon representative will be able to provide you with an expected operating life based on the amounts and chemicals in your stream.


Does Activated Carbon Absorb or Adsorb?
Activated carbon adsorbs. The chemical process of absorption is commonly compared to a sponge soaking up water. The water is fully integrated into the sponge, not being limited to the surface area. Differently, adsorption is a process whereby molecules stick to the surface area only. As mentioned above, activated carbon has a large surface area due to being a porous material. The unwanted substance sticks to the surface area of the carbon particles.

Which Carbon filter is best for me?
There are several kinds of activated carbon filters and determining which filter will work best for you is actually not that complicated. If you would like to learn more about the proper treatment of your application, our technicians are more than willing to find a solution. Please contact us for more information through this process.


http://www.generalcarbon.com/facts-about-activated-carbon/activated-carbon-faq/

[wraper]

Also, activated charcoal however its used (it also is useful orally for some kinds of poisoning) never could eliminate everything.

Are you joking. Military gas masks contain activated charcoal. Just for marketing reasons you say?  Gas mask producers, Weller, ERSA, OKI and all others must be stupid to make their filters mostly from activated charcoal.

The crucial questions here are "are 'toxic gases' present in solder fumes, if so, what are they?

So you insist that flux fumes are nothing more that dust particles? They contain a lot of stuff, including halides if flux is not halogen free.
Yet again:

The most common approach with any organic chemical (whether it be paint fumes or a nerve toxin like Sarin) is activated charcoal.

And here you go: https://www.elexp.com/Images/Health_Hazards.PDF, all organic stuff

Threshold values for some of the VOC’s that exist in soldering smoke fumes.
CAS-no Name Chemical no: Threshold value Threshold value
 Mg/m3* ppm*
25167-80-0 Chlorophenol C6H5CIO 0,5 ---
50-00-0 Formaldehyde CH2O 0,6 0,5
111-30-8 Glutaraldehyde C5H8O2 0,8** 0,2**
71-43-2 Benzene C6H6 1,5 0,5
108-95-2 Phenol C6H6O 4 1
141-43-5 Ethanolamine C2H7NO 8 3
7647-01-0 Hydrochloric acid CIH 8** 5**
75-07-0 Acetaldehyde C2H4O 45 25
100-42-5 Styrene C8H8 90 20
108-88-3 Toluene C7H8 200 50
67-63-0 Isopropanol C3H8O 350 150
67-34-1 Acetone C3H6O 600 250

Some read about Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs):
https://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_version/chemicals.php?id=31

The simple answer here is, apart from acting as a prefilter to keep big particles - visible dust out of the pleats of a HEPA filter, the use of activated charcoal in (every single non-industrial air cleaner I have seen to date) is basically for show and not likely to remove toxic chemicals except at the very beginning after its unwrapped..

because of how those cleaners are designed and the amount of carbon present is just not enough, it wont last for long because there is a lot of stuff in our air that is not toxic but still will get 'adsorbed" ruining the ability of the tiny amount of activated charcoal there to work. Its still useful though, to keep big stuff out of the HEPA filter making it last much longer. Any kind of mesh or net or cloth would do that.

Activated charcoal is not used to filter big particles. It actually contains of particles by itself. And there is not tiny amount in flux fume filters, they contain a very thick layer of if. If we talk about serious filters, not that compact desk crap.

[cdev]

Wraper, the filters sold for solder extractors are mostly particulate filters with a thin carbon prefilter that could not possibly last for long enough to be effective for more than a very short time, maybe at best a few hours or a day or two, in a best case scenario. if that.

The thin layer of black material they contain- may well be 'activated carbon" but they almost always contain too little of it to clean toxic gases for more than a very short period. (Minutes, hours, likely not even a full day for all but the very thickest of them) If they had enough activated carbon, they would be huge and heavy and they would need a much stronger motor to pull the air through them, then the cost of replacing the activated carbon at a frequent enough interval would make them into such a niche product they would not sell, it likely would make them too expensive for the market.

If you go to Google Images and pull up the images returned by the phrase "solder fume extractor" as I did, you'll be unlikely to see anything that could do what you're claiming they do for any more than a very short period of time. Maybe at the most a few percent of the time period their filters are supposed to be replaced in.

do it, search on "solder fume extractor" The images you will have returned, even the heavy duty looking ones, are likely HEPA filters that are not functioning as activated charcoal filters in the way you are claiming for any reasonable length of time. Their sellers are unlikely to make such claims, if they do, you'll likely find either that the filters cost more than you would ever have guessed, and as I said, weigh a lot and require a huge motor, or are not based on activated charcoal, instead they are HEPA filters, because it just would cost too much, So I think you'll find that lets say 99% are not activated carbon filters in any more than a cosmetic way. Maybe some are but they are likely so expensive they are out of the price range of all but industry.

This is another reason why HRVs make the best "solder fume extractors". They actually do extract the fumes. For many people, if you live in a mild climate a simple fan connected to a vent hose going outside makes sense. The only filter you need is a screen to keep bugs from flying in.

Do some research and you'll find this to be the case. The manufacturers likely found that people wanted the carbon but didn't want to pay the cost of it.

[wraper]

Wraper, the filters sold for solder extractors are mostly particulate filters with a thin carbon prefilter that could not possibly last for long enough to be effective for more than a very short time, maybe at best a few hours or a day or two, in a best case scenario. if that.

Yeah, "only" 2kg of activated carbon in average OKI filter. I don't need to google any pictures. I have my own Weller WFE2ES. Although it is "economy" version compared to WFE2S, it's default filter is still very thick and heavy. HEPA filter won't be that thick, and even if it was, it wouldn't be this heavy. I rather suspect you haven't ever seen a decent solder fume filter yourself. Also activated carbon can adsorb a lot of contamination. Depending of what contamination is, around 20-50% of activated carbon weight.
https://www.okinternational.com/File%20Library/Metcal/Application/Fume%20Extraction/List%20of%20Adsorption%20Ability/Metcal-Carbon-absorption-list.pdf If there is 2kg of activated carbon, then think how much flux you should burn to get enough fumes to wear out the filter. Even if it's a cheap desk fume extractor with just 10g of activated carbon, producing 2-5g of fumes by soldering is still not that easy task. Certainly not just a few hours of soldering. If you evaporate a liter of solvent into the filter, then yes, you can kill it rather fast (with just a HEPA filter it will simply go thorough the filter). But kilogram of flux fumes in not something I will achieve in a year.

Filter life expectancy example.
A customer uses propanol (Isopropyl Alcohol) for a manual cleaning application. His consumption is approximately 50 grams per week. Propanol
has a capacity index of “4” (between 20 to 50%) or approximately 35% by weight.
Carbon consumption = 50g / .35 = 143 grams. With a filter capacity of 2.05Kg as with the BVX200 filtration systems, the filter will last 2050 / 143
= 14.33 weeks.
Carbon weight for all OKI gas filters are as follows.
FG-BVX = 500 grams
FG-BVX200 = 2050 grams
FIL22G010 and FIL22G020 = 11,000 grams.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/41755.pdf?_ga=2.239331211.986965499.1510957394-544975003.1505746053

[cdev]

The best price I can find on a 14 week FG-BVX200 filter is $172 each. That's more than I paid for my entire (top rated) HEPA cleaner new with one filter and carbon prefilter. Its filters are $60 each and they last around six months.

The examples you are showing us illustrate what I was telling you.

[wraper]

The best price I can find on a 14 week FG-BVX200 filter is $172 each. That's more than I paid for my entire (top rated) HEPA cleaner new with one filter and carbon prefilter. Its filters are $60 each and they last around six months.

You bought some cleaner not suitable for the task which is not able to absorb toxic fumes and bash all specialized activated carbon based filters  . It will last 14 weeks if you will evaporate solvent into it. Typical solder contains around 3% of flux. Even if we assume that all of it converts into the fumes (it doesn't), you'll need to spend around 20-30kg of solder to wear out the filter. This is more than home users will ever solder in their life.

The examples you are showing us illustrate what I was telling you.

No, they illustrate you make some unfounded assumptions.

[cdev]

It would make sense to enclose /wrap up the $172 filter in plastic wrap when its not being used so that you could get 14 weeks of actual use rather than it being used up even as you slept IF we lived in some kind of closed system, like a terrarium (think THX-1138 - the film) and could not breathe in outside air.  But ventilation makes so much sense because filling a $172 brick with fumes every 14 weeks that could far more simply be blown outdoors is jut nuts. (excuse me for pointing this out)

Look, I am sorry that HRVs exhaust fumes outside rather than EXTRACT revenue for these companies. Sending solder fumes outdoors is free, and nobody makes a penny out of it. One could even use cheap computer fans and a pair of heat sinks to save energy.

The best price I can find on a 14 week FG-BVX200 filter is $172 each. That's more than I paid for my entire (top rated) HEPA cleaner new with one filter and carbon prefilter. Its filters are $60 each and they last around six months.

You bought some cleaner not suitable for the task which is not able to absorb toxic fumes and bash all specialized activated carbon based filters  . It will last 14 weeks if you will evaporate solvent into it. Typical solder contains around 3% of flux. Even if we assume that all of it converts into the fumes (it doesn't), you'll need to spend around 20-30kg of solder to wear out the filter. This is more than home users will ever solder in their life.

The examples you are showing us illustrate what I was telling you.

No, they illustrate you make some unfounded assumptions.

[cdev]

I propose we change the name of this thread to "Solder Cash Extraction" because it more accurately describes filtration devices function when 1.) most of them fail to actually exhaust fumes outdoors.  2.) The ones with adequate filters to remove VOCs with potential health effects extract a high price in cash to allow their continued operation. 3.) Most of us live and work only a few inches away from the "ultimate fume sink" the outdoors.

[wraper]

Look, I am sorry that HRVs exhaust fumes outside rather than EXTRACT revenue for these companies. Sending solder fumes outdoors is free, and nobody makes a penny out of it. One could even use cheap computer fans and a pair of heat sinks to save energy.

It's not free, it's as free as, say, solar energy  . First you need to build ventilation, make a hole in the wall. Often it's not viable, especially if you are renting the place, outdoors may be 20 meters away form the bench. Often it will cost a lot more than just placing filter units and cannot be moved to another place. If it is prototyping bench, and not production, likely you won't need to change the filter ever. I have fume extractor for several years, used a few kg of solder and did not have any need to replace the filter.

being used so that you could get 14 weeks of actual use rather than it being used up even as you slept IF we lived in some kind of closed system

Seriously, do you have problems with consuming information? Understand it selectively to fit your beliefs? 14 weeks is if you put into a filter 50g of solvent per week, which is unlikely to happen in non production environment. Why would filter wear out while not being used?

3.) Most of us live and work only a few inches away from the "ultimate fume sink" the outdoors.

And there is also hole in the wall readily available . And don't forget that unlike in crappy american houses we usually have something like half meter of bricks or concrete.