Author Topic: A Dilemma when evaluating a RF Power Sensor  (Read 6625 times)

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Offline Joel_Dunsmore

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Re: A Dilemma when evaluating a RF Power Sensor
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2021, 04:18:10 am »
I have my 2 ground loop stories:
1) Hot and Neutral and Ground rotated on my ancient HP bench I got used when I joined the R&D team. Didn't know it and didn't seem to do any harm until I connected a BNC reference cable between two benches. It wasn't good.
2) In China, in a high-tech lab, my customer was complaining that the PNA reading was jumping up and down, very noisy; I kept changing the sweep rate until it was about 200 msec full screen, guess what, 10 cycles exactly (50 Hz, China, remember). I said "maybe a ground loop"; they said " not possible, look, nothing else connected."  This is why you have to go there in person. I peak my head around the back of the wafer prober (where the PNA was) and there was a 10 MHz reference BNC cable daisy-chained from one station to the next. I disconnect that and the noise disappears.  They had been dealing with this for something like 3 months and were ready to send the unit back.

Here's the thing, much (most?) equipment has bypass capacitors from Hot to Chassis-ground and from Neutral to Chassis-ground, I guess for conducted emissions, and they are of course regulated so the value is set that the max current flow in the ground can't be more than a milliamp or something (don't hold me to that) and so if you have a power system that is not grounded, the chassis really will float at 1/2 line value. 

In fact (make a long story longer), there was an issue where it seemed HP 8753 VNAs source amplifiers were blowing up, especially overseas (like Japan). Turns out it is very common (at that time, 1980's) to not have grounded mains in Japan. So the chassis was floating at 55 V, and if someone put a test cable on, that some how was earth ground on the center pin, you would see 55 V across the RF connector
to chassis and blow the main amplifier (we did a re-design to put a clamp on that, but really it was a bit of a challenge to do that and not affect the 3 GHz performance).  When I suggested to our environmental test group that we add a test to check if grounding the RF center pin of an instrument when the chassis is ungrounded could be added to the test suite their response is "An ungrounded chassis is a fault condition, we don't test instruments when they are powered in a faulty condition".  Eventually, they agreed to add it to the "strife-test" which is where we intentionally test-to-failure (the impressive strife test is putting a 50 kG, $400k PNA on a shake table and vibrating it until something breaks, always exciting that). 
 
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Offline paul@yahrprobert.com

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Re: A Dilemma when evaluating a RF Power Sensor
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2021, 04:47:44 am »
or the ground loop allows sufficient current flow that the resistance of the shield allow the noise to couple into the sensor circuitry.  Try slipping a couple ferrite cores on the cable and see if that makes a difference.
 

Offline xmo

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Re: A Dilemma when evaluating a RF Power Sensor
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2021, 05:48:44 am »
"In fact (make a long story longer)..."
-
Thanks for sharing.
 

Online fenugrec

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Re: A Dilemma when evaluating a RF Power Sensor
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2021, 04:34:32 pm »
Thanks for the ideas guys.

I took a closer look at the sensor cable, and the shield makes contact with the connector shell only via a single setscrew. There was also a bit of corrosion on the locking nut and shell; I cleaned that up, re-seated the setscrew, connected the Boonton to the same power strip as the siggen this time, and everything is sane now.
See photo; this sensor head specifies a usable range of -60dBm to +10, and my readings seem to validate that. I lost the photo where I had -60 set on the siggen , but the reading was -59.7 .  Definitely good enough.

Interestingly, with the sig gen powered on, I measure a 4mV DC (!) offset between its output connector's shield and the Boonton's GND. With the sig gen off, that falls to an unmeasurable DC voltage. Still weird but I don't really need to solve that anymore !
 

Offline xmo

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Re: A Dilemma when evaluating a RF Power Sensor
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2021, 12:22:12 am »
"everything is sane now"
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