CB and Ham Radio Techs Love Their Bird Wattmeters

[joeqsmith]

Looking at your attached file,  the Rigol shows Marker, Marker3 & 3D.  What does the "D" represent?  Are these all the same and is this something the Rigol always displays?   

When you calibrate the Rigol, is the transmission normalized or does it offer more advanced models?  I assume its a 2-port one path system like the NanoVNA.  Everything I have shown was only normalized (at best).  I suspect this is the source of much of the ripple.   Even when I used the PNA, it was only normalized.  The actual part may be much more stable.

I don't follow too many threads but have not seen any posts from them.   You can check their stats.  Shows they were on yesterday.  Maybe busy building their super Watt meter. 

Probably got bored with this topic.

If so, that's too bad.  Maybe a new floozy got in the way?      

[xrunner]

Looking at your attached file,  the Rigol shows Marker, Marker3 & 3D.  What does the "D" represent?  Are these all the same and is this something the Rigol always displays?   

Remember I didn't design the user interface. 

"Marker" is the information on the main screen for the marker selected

"Marker 3" is the third Marker of the four that can be used (if turned on)

"3D" is Marker 3, and it's a Delta marker by default. I could set up a reference Marker 3 and it would be shown as "3R" in the marker table. Then both would be used to view the delta frequency and power between the two.

When you calibrate the Rigol, is the transmission normalized or does it offer more advanced models?  I assume its a 2-port one path system like the NanoVNA.  Everything I have shown was only normalized (at best).  I suspect this is the source of much of the ripple.   Even when I used the PNA, it was only normalized.  The actual part may be much more stable.

It's normalized, 2 port one path.

I don't follow too many threads but have not seen any posts from them.   You can check their stats.  Shows they were on yesterday.  Maybe busy building their super Watt meter. 

Probably got bored with this topic.

If so, that's too bad.  Maybe a new floozy got in the way?   

Very possible knowing what I know of him. 

[xrunner]

Checking accuracy using the new 10 dB att. plus a Mini Circuits SAT-30 30 dB att. together for a combined 40 dB (I don't have the 2W 30 dB att. I ordered yet). The SAT-30 is only rated for 0.5W, and it will be subjected to 0.57 W in this test, but it should be OK for a short amount of time.

Using a Yaesu FTM-100D on low power, and the "Ham Bands" power meter, which uses pre-set cal factors per band. At 145.720 MHz the hp 437B reads 5.82W, and my power meter design reads 5.7W.

A test with the "Wide Band" power meter for low power lab use, which uses a correction equation based on the frequency you set, yields about the same answer. It doesn't have offsets you can choose for ext. att. so you have to add that back in yourself (not meant to be used over +13 dBm). -2.5 + 40 = 37.5 (5.62W)

So far so good.

[xrunner]

30 dB 2W attenuator received. Checks performed individually and combined with the 10 dB 10W. Next I want to take the attenuators, coaxial switch, relay, RF test signal, and a 5V relay trigger pulse, lash that up on the benchtop, and check it all out.

It's pretty simple and "should work". Another phrase heard before "Nothing can go wrong". But, as we know in this business, "it should work" and "it does work" are two entirely different things.

[joeqsmith]

It's pretty simple and "should work". Another phrase heard before "Nothing can go wrong". But, as we know in this business, "it should work" and "it does work" are two entirely different things.

One of the common phrases I have heard throughout my career is software developers who will say,  "I didn't change anything that would effect that", that referring to some new problem they introduced. 

[xrunner]

Lashed up a test setup of the coaxial switch, relay, flyback diode, and attenuators. I used the 50 MHz output of the 437B power meter for a 0 dBm signal @ 50 MHz. The other signal is a +10 dBm signal @ 55 MHz from the Agilent 8648A. The 50 MHz signal goes into the NO port (low power port), and the 55 MHz into the NC port through the two attenuators (high power port).

So on the SpecAn you see a +10 dBm signal attenuated by 40 dB, and the 0 dBm unattenuated (traces were frozen to get this display). I simply switched the relay by applying 5V to the relay board with a test lead. I may not need the relay at all. It depends on how I want to turn on the coaxial switch, i.e., do I want to get cute and do it from the controller via a sensed button, or just directly switch 12V with a mechanical switch (oh wait - that's way to simple ...). I do have a bunch of relay boards I need to use up ... I also want to get some airflow through the inside so I have a small 5V fan I want to integrate into the enclosure.

Nothing unforeseen happened so really the only work is to to integrate all this into a case and make a few mods to the software. 3D printing will be involved. Oh yea, I recently got a bunch of those threaded brass inserts for 3D printed parts. I want to try those in my case for mounting things like the fan or other items.

[joeqsmith]

Maybe leave it as is as it has a certain 70s appeal?     The yellow is used to program the state or is that an antenna? 

[xrunner]

Maybe leave it as is as it has a certain 70s appeal?    

Or in other words - quit while I'm ahead. 

I think this is more an excuse to use the brass inserts in some 3D printed parts than anything else.

The yellow is used to program the state or is that an antenna?

Yea state although with enough RF power near-field it might trigger it. 

[joeqsmith]

Bob pulled off a few successes that looked much worse.   

I have the precursor to this book back when we had sales guys with trunk loads of data books.  The two things that come to mind are his infinite heatsink which I think was the head from one of his VWs.  The other what that FET probe that they published in EDN (or some other trade mag).   That was my first active probe..

[xrunner]

Yea I'm still working on the power meter upgrade. I had a 20 year old Maytag Neptune dryer blow a control board and I was attempting to repair that to no avail, so I had to order a used control board on Ebay.

However, I did manage to add a little test to the actual power meter. I wanted to add a third interrupt and ISR to handle the request to switch in the attenuator. I used a library (PinChangeInterrupt) to be easily able to add more than the two interrupts normally available on the UNO platform. I added pins D8 (button sense) and D9 (output relay control) to accomplish this.

I just used an LED to verify that I was getting the +5V signal to close a relay from the ISR when triggered by a substitute button (a wire    ), and that the other power meter functions were not being affected by the new code. Since I got that going, I will wire up the components outside the case like I did before and verify the system works using a button-triggered selection method for the attenuation.

In a way that's the easy part. The hard part is getting all these new parts into a new case.

I mean - in a professional manner I will be proud of.

I mean - in a manner that I can post pics of on this forum and not be torn to shreds by the readers. 

[joeqsmith]

Almost bought one of these for the fun of it.  The resolution is only 0.1dBm and I don't own any equipment that I could use to evaluate it.    One of the applications is "- Calibration of radio frequency instruments".   Note the lacking of any accuracy spec.    

There was a Bird meter on ebay a few weeks ago with 10 or so slugs and maybe the case.  I think it had 17 bidders and was over $350.  Hopefully some lucky CBer ended up giving it a good home.

I am in need of a wideband meter but I'm afraid the Bird 43 isn't it.  The costs for what I am looking for far exceed my budget so I am looking at renting.  There were a lot of used parts on ebay but with them being unknown, by the time I find a working set and have it calibrated, rental seems like a better approach.   

RF-Power-Meter-V5.0 100K To 10GHz RF Power Meter High-Speed Acquisition Type With Type-C Data Port

Description:
RF-Power-Meter-V5.0 is a high-performance cheap portable USB simple radio frequency power meter. Provide 5V power supply and data communication via USB. Easy to use, small size, easy to carry, stable performance, high accuracy, preset offset, wide dynamic range, fast measurement speed. The software supporting this power meter allows users to configure the power meter on a PC and makes data recording and sharing simple.

Advantages:
1. Support a variety of high-speed dynamic acquisitions, up to 500kbps (2uS)
2. Support up to 10GHz RF signal acquisition function
3. With 2 MARK cursor functions, it is convenient to measure the modulation pulse width
4. The function of automatically finding the maximum and minimum values
5. The maximum storage depth is 500 points
6. Support pause, data save and export function

Application:
- Calibration of radio frequency instruments
- Inspection and maintenance of radio frequency equipment
- Measurement of standing wave ratio of radio frequency circuit (adding feedback bridge)
- Measurement of return loss of radio frequency circuit
- Interference detection between wireless communication devices
- RSSI (received signal strength indicator) and transmission power level detection
- Performance evaluation of step attenuator
- Measurement of amplifier gain and network attenuation
- Measurement of forward power and reflected power in directional coupler
- Power measurement of GSM signal modulated by GMSK*

Technical Parameters:
1. Measuring power range -60 to +0 dBm (where 0 to -40dbm has good linearity)
2. Measurement power resolution ±0.1 dBm
3. The measuring frequency range is 100K to 10GHz
4. Input impedance: 50Ω
5. Dynamic range: 60dB
6. Working voltage 5VDC (power supply via TYPE-C cable)
7. Charging current: 100mA
8. 6 x 3 x 1.4cm/2.4 x 1.2 x 0.6" (without sizes of SMA connectors)
9. CNC machined aluminum alloy shell, and the weight is less than 80g

Package Included:
- 1 x RF Power Meter
- 1 x Type-C Cable

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384348942837?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180816085401%26meid%3Df7ee34c232e540c7ba751e3af7892522%26pid%3D100970%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D384348942837%26itm%3D384348942837%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2380057.c100970.m5481&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad93ffbb2-64e9-11ed-baa2-762ef9ec8a2b%7Cparentrq%3A7b7d12fd1840acd89d2ac07efff888ba%7Ciid%3A1

[xrunner]

Almost bought one of these for the fun of it.  The resolution is only 0.1dBm and I don't own any equipment that I could use to evaluate it.    One of the applications is "- Calibration of radio frequency instruments".   Note the lacking of any accuracy spec.    

The accuracy - yes - what is the spec on that? I looked at a few listings of it and it isn't mentioned at all.

RED FLAG

If it was sold by a US seller I might - might have bought one just for evaluation.

BUT

I don't see the software in any of the listings either, did you?

[joeqsmith]

I thought I did but a search came up short.   


There's also these two which show the software in the ad. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284299377445?hash=item4231903b25:g:ztQAAOSwYipgpMWS

https://www.ebay.com/itm/323184466616?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110013%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIMRXI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D242365%26meid%3D871ad18886494b64a7edcf0f3596dd1b%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D284423320121%26itm%3D323184466616%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSIMRVIMLRV5WebV1_0%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A323184466616871ad18886494b64a7edcf0f3596dd1b%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAAA8Hu6A12tbgsOEr8tufGJ8pgA4zY5fpMun5FBaIP98EgwlUek9urg1LnhkNAjIZRPaiTpzsk7tP7MnJJ9GTb%252ByUcWwO9UmyRFF0ZQOIyHZjQbVBShf%252BQRDlDMfy208rCBVFp7WKFLDOzmopWu4gu0hYysZDC%252BU077ypE5SC7LU3Zl6hRbUTNwYAc2mbPdc%252B%252FeLDjtd1xnDZoB1L3B6r9GgTkxaPS4tRxNpStbyOvg6c03IMZzlLP2iv%252Fuw9zSsH1nrh%252FJUhGyH4KjP6e0g1u9dGbp5c3%252BgdzkuocAMwBKoVAMRrh9hXgwfPwenBka0wjEDw%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675

[joeqsmith]

You could attach this to your current design with a few tweaks.  I wonder how those cheap connectors, FR4... work at 10GHz.   Looks like the are expecting you to use it at one frequency.

AD8317 Module 1M-10GHz 10000MHz 60dB Power Meter Logarithmic Detector Dynamic

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ad8317.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/Logarithmic-Detection-1M-10GHz-Controller-Amplifier/dp/B09444HRTJ/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1OXT4B4Z3RQSQ&keywords=AD8317+Module+1M-10GHz+10000MHz+60dB+Power+Meter+Logarithmic+Detector+Dynamic&qid=1668603934&sprefix=ad8317+module+1m-10ghz+10000mhz+60db+power+meter+logarithmic+detector+dynamic%2Caps%2C132&sr=8-2

[WPXS472]

Man, what a topic! I love this.
I have always preferred the Telewave wattmeter. It doesn't need different elements. Not knocking the Bird, though. After all, it is the industry standard.
Back in the day, when I worked at a depot radio shop, we had, I think, 3 Bird 43 wattmeters, and a small box of elements. We used them almost every day. We didn't consider them to be precision instruments. Being the "Government" we had to send them once a year for "calibration" to our on depot cal lab. Once, we got one back with 3 of the elements in the same box with a note that said that this wattmeter was calibrated with these 3 elements, and not to use it with any other elements. We ignored that, of course. Like a lot of other commonly used instruments, the readings of a Bird are considered absolute. There will be no arguments. Having used network analyzers almost daily for quite some time, I have learned to be skeptical of instrument readings.

[joeqsmith]

A few vintage Narda meters are on ebay.   

[joeqsmith]

Someone was asking me something about using the NanoVNA to measure antennas.  I figured I would try a search for the person to show them a proper setup but instead came across this gem.  Linked to the 9:00 in.  Watch carefully. 

https://youtu.be/tCHAa-sjgcQ?t=535

[xrunner]

Someone was asking me something about using the NanoVNA to measure antennas.  I figured I would try a search for the person to show them a proper setup but instead came across this gem.  Linked to the 9:00 in.  Watch carefully. 

https://youtu.be/tCHAa-sjgcQ?t=535

Wait WTF? He transmitted into the port from the handheld? 

[Kosmic]

Sometimes, I have the feeling I'm living in the movie Idiocracy 

[joeqsmith]

Lionel KJ7OFH
Very helpful. Thanks!

RF Field Tech KE5ADX
That is what I am hoping to do. Take my experience to help other Hams understand the hobby more.

[AFTORF]

His crazy "technical skills" remember me a colleague who wanted to transmit 30 W to a port connected to splitter and antenna but with 2 professionnal expensive RX (from R & S) connected to others ports. I was just in time to say "STOP !"

[xrunner]

Lionel KJ7OFH
Very helpful. Thanks!

RF Field Tech KE5ADX
That is what I am hoping to do. Take my experience to help other Hams understand the hobby more.

Well in a way it is helpful. You need to understand what to do and what not to do. 

[joeqsmith]

He opens with:

The purpose of my channel is to take my almost 30 years experience in the RF world troubleshooting antenna lines, antennas, equipment, everything like that.  A multitude of tools and equipment.  Bring it to you in the RF world and see if we can't bring them together and show you how things can improve your signal quality while you're making digital and voice contacts.

He talks about other hams and their channels.  I skimmed the videos they linked but didn't see another example.

[vk6zgo]

Someone was asking me something about using the NanoVNA to measure antennas.  I figured I would try a search for the person to show them a proper setup but instead came across this gem.  Linked to the 9:00 in.  Watch carefully. 

https://youtu.be/tCHAa-sjgcQ?t=535

Wait WTF? He transmitted into the port from the handheld? 

It certainly looked like he did.

I couldn't quite work out what he was maundering on about with the "through function", as he didn't seem to have S21 set on the screen.
In any case, he didn't kill the nanoVNA, as it worked normally afterwards.
That model of very small Icom handhelds has very low output power as standard, so maybe he "dodged a bullet" without knowing he had.

There are a number of good videos on how to test antennas with a nanoVNA, so I hope the original "person" was directed to one of them instead.

[joeqsmith]

Someone was asking me something about using the NanoVNA to measure antennas.  I figured I would try a search for the person to show them a proper setup but instead came across this gem.  Linked to the 9:00 in.  Watch carefully. 

https://youtu.be/tCHAa-sjgcQ?t=535

Wait WTF? He transmitted into the port from the handheld? 

It certainly looked like he did.

I couldn't quite work out what he was maundering on about with the "through function", as he didn't seem to have S21 set on the screen.
In any case, he didn't kill the nanoVNA, as it worked normally afterwards.
That model of very small Icom handhelds has very low output power as standard, so maybe he "dodged a bullet" without knowing he had.

There are a number of good videos on how to test antennas with a nanoVNA, so I hope the original "person" was directed to one of them instead.

He talks about measuring two different SWRs, the antenna's and the transmitters.   I did not see where he shows the VNA working after the deed was done and after watching, I'm not sure they would even know. 

I did not point the OP to any videos, nor did I attempt to correct the person who put out this video.   I understood the OP's comment was about people are making false claims on their handheld radio antenna reviews.   They claimed reviewers use these low cost VNAs to make their measurements.  If you are aware of a decent video showing how it's done, feel free to post a link and I will sent the OP here.   

I'm actually working on a fairly large test on some antennas now where I am comparing the radiation patterns... for several 3D printed microwave horns.  Doing this in my home office rather than getting into a chamber as its more of a relative comparison.