"A" brand instruments vs "B" brand

[noisyee]

"A" brand instruments tend to have more stable and predictable behavior over the entire product life cycle. This is important for production line usage.
Think about it, you want expand production, bought the same instruments, but they are updated to the newest firmware. All of a sudden, your new production line doesn't work as the old one.
Not a big deal for hobbyists or lab usage.
Also, some "B" brands are improving this problem, but still a long way to go compare to the "A" brands.

[tautech]

    Also, Siglent is Chinese, and that would not fly at work.

Would a LeCroy T3DSO2000A be acceptable instead ?
Maybe you recognize them:
https://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopes

I don't think anyone here would be thrilled if they knew what they were.

Reality is Siglent and LeCroy have had a partnership for a decade of more where many models have been rebranded and also gone obsolete to fill LeCroy's entry level marketplace segment.

Exactly as HPAK had Rigol make their entry level products at one time.

[BillyO]

Perhaps companies should look into the spin-off concept.

As an example, besides electronics and photography I also enjoy playing trombone.  There is a musical instrument company called Jupiter Band Instruments.  They are an American subsidiary of Taiwanese parent company KHS.  All the instruments are manufactured in Taiwan and China but sold through Jupiter.  They make good instruments for the student/beginner and up to intermediate players.  However, they wanted to dip their feet in the pro-level instruments, but did not want to risk the endeavor pulling their successful existing business under, so they spun of another company called XO Brass.  They took the approach of building a company to compete with he best available (without going to the customer builders) and adopted the philosophy of providing fully professional horns and fully professional prices and supporting them better than their competitors.  They result is, they are successful and getting more attention all the time.  When I ordered my bass trombone back in 2015 there was going to be a delay in getting the options I wanted so they shipped me (at their expense) a brand new on the shelf model to use while I waited.  I didn'tt even have to ship it back to them.  All I had to do was drop it off at the nearest Long & McQuade store (a big music chain in Canada).  That's service!

So, folks like Keysight, R&S and Tek could go the other way.  Spin off separate entities to address the hobbyist market and offer prices, quality and service commensurate with folks like Siglent and Rigol.  That way these spin-off are on their own to make it happen or fail without affecting the main line business.  It's good to have choices.

[Fungus]

Better throw My Brymen 786 in the garbage then as I do use it on the mains and it has several current ranges.   

You use your current ranges on mains AC??

[joeqsmith]

Reality is Siglent and LeCroy have had a partnership for a decade of more where many models have been rebranded and also gone obsolete to fill LeCroy's entry level marketplace segment.

I wonder if that partnership has done more harm than good to the brand.   After Siglent going after their customer's for selling their old products on eBay,  it took me several years to even look at what they had to offer.   Buying that first low end Arb was a ball buster after seeing how poor the rotary encoder was.   I thought about getting their higher end Arb for home use just to see if it was any better quality but you never answered when I asked about it. 

I have that LeCroy 64Xi and it's case is the worse I have seen.  The knobs falling off, fine.  They made new ones that were tighter.  The front plastic bezel cracking, fine it gets a lot of abuse on my desk.   All that flimsy stamped metal inside.  Not impressed.   I do like the electronics design and the software.     

[tautech]

After Siglent going after their customer's for selling their old products on eBay,  it took me several years to even look at what they had to offer.   

Less publicised was the same stuff from Rigol. It's way back in the forum if anyone is bothered to dig it out.
 

[joeqsmith]

If you have $3200 to spend on an oscilloscope you could:
A) ...

or

B) ...

For my hobby, I choose option C and buy used equipment.  I try to stay in the 10+ year old range to curb the costs.   In most cases, that has worked out well but I am able to do my own repairs. 

[Fungus]

After Siglent going after their customer's for selling their old products on eBay,  it took me several years to even look at what they had to offer.   

Less publicised was the same stuff from Rigol. It's way back in the forum if anyone is bothered to dig it out.

Maybe you could provide the link to that...

But, whatever: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Siglent was more publicized because it was official policy that came from on high. Dave even asked the CEO about it in his video:

https://youtu.be/v9M397sUkEA?t=1468

[BillyO]

You use your current ranges on mains AC??

Did I say that?

I have more appropriate tools for that purpose.

[Fungus]

You use your current ranges on mains AC??

Did I say that?

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

[BillyO]

I try to stay in the 10+ year old range to curb the costs.   In most cases, that has worked out well but I am able to do my own repairs.

I do this too, but to an even older vintage.  A part of my electronics/tech hobbies is vintage computers.  They have their own bench and I have equipped it with test instruments from the 70's and 80's.   

[tautech]

You use your current ranges on mains AC??

Did I say that?

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

Because for a few $ more you can have a much much better Fluke.
Go do your homework and tell me which one. 

[tautech]

After Siglent going after their customer's for selling their old products on eBay,  it took me several years to even look at what they had to offer.   

Less publicised was the same stuff from Rigol. It's way back in the forum if anyone is bothered to dig it out.

Maybe you could provide the link to that...

But, whatever: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Siglent was more publicized because it was official policy that came from on high. Dave even asked the CEO about it in his video:

So, same answer provided as months previous, a junior was let loose without supervision.
Since when has Dave interviewed any other TE CEO's ? 

[BillyO]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022 or the bench equivalent like the 8012 (or both if you're patient) that will run circles around the 101.  It does have the advantage of being tiny, I'll give it that, but a modern DMM without at least a mA range?  It would probably be a good tool for a on-site appliance repair person.  But then why does it need a frequency range?  Anyway, I think Fluke realized it wasn't so great as I hear they discontinued it.

[tautech]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022 or the bench equivalent like the 8012 (or both if you're patient) that will run circles around the 101.  It does have the advantage of being tiny, I'll give it that, but a modern DMM without at least a mA range? 

It's only redeeming feature is it can survive Joe's tests. $50 is a lot for some for a meter with such limited capability and for not a whole lot more you can get a Fluke DMM with uA capability.....and Joe has beat one of them up too.

[Minki]

Just try them both and you'll think differently for sure. Especially if you need protocol decoding. There is a thread where a forum member does a functional comparison between these scopes and the RTB2004 comes out on top for most use cases. It is a huge mistake to just go by the datasheet. 90% of makes a good instrument isn't in the datasheet.

In another thread you mentioned you are doing semi-professional photography. I doubt you are using a US $200 compact camera to take pictures. I'm not going to try and convince you that my $200 compact camera is equal to your professional camera because it has the same resolution and also has 10x zoom.

Sorry nctnico a little bit off topic can you share the link about this ?
Thank's

[BillyO]

Sorry nctnico a little bit off topic can you share the link about this ?
Thank's

He did.. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

[Minki]

He did.. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg3922118/#msg3922118

Thank you because i ask before read the entire post

[joeqsmith]

I try to stay in the 10+ year old range to curb the costs.   In most cases, that has worked out well but I am able to do my own repairs.

I do this too, but to an even older vintage.  A part of my electronics/tech hobbies is vintage computers.  They have their own bench and I have equipped it with test instruments from the 70's and 80's.   

I also have a small collection of vintage computers but nothing all that rare outside of hardware/software I designed for them. 

I have a few old items from the 50's - 80s.  Most of it made in the USA.   Last week I used my first DSO to make some measurements for a video I was working on.  It was made in the late 80s and I've owned it over 20's years.   It was replaced eventually with a more modern scope from early 2000.  I wouldn't mind having all new equipment for my personal hobby but my pockets are not that deep. 

[joeqsmith]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022 or the bench equivalent like the 8012 (or both if you're patient) that will run circles around the 101.  It does have the advantage of being tiny, I'll give it that, but a modern DMM without at least a mA range? 

It's only redeeming feature is it can survive Joe's tests. $50 is a lot for some for a meter with such limited capability and for not a whole lot more you can get a Fluke DMM with uA capability.....and Joe has beat one of them up too.

Must be referring to the 17B+.  That's a fairly expensive meter without RMS.  One thing I have seen over and over is these newer Fluke meters are tough when compared with most brand I have looked at.   Such a big change from my first Fluke (8000A).   I swear if I looked at that meter wrong, all the custom ICs were getting replaced.  They really stepped up their game which I am sure what made them so successful.     

Then I look at Keysight.....  Rated to -20C but was pretty much done in at just under that.    100MHz counter feature my ass.   Damaged beyond repair with transients that a $50 Amprobe meter survived.   When I say damaged beyond repair, that in of itself says a lot!  The rotary switch couldn't withstand a fifth of what I have put similar meters through.  It was so bad the plastic knob broke after the contacts cut into the PCB.  If that's not bad enough, it was 121GW turtle slow.   

***
Should also mention Keysight's lettering being easily removed.   

[tautech]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022 or the bench equivalent like the 8012 (or both if you're patient) that will run circles around the 101.  It does have the advantage of being tiny, I'll give it that, but a modern DMM without at least a mA range? 

It's only redeeming feature is it can survive Joe's tests. $50 is a lot for some for a meter with such limited capability and for not a whole lot more you can get a Fluke DMM with uA capability.....and Joe has beat one of them up too.

Must be referring to the 17B+. 

Close, 15B, before they did the + thing. Same as 17B but different external case and button overlay.
No backlight.
Good sound basic DMM with most of the basic features you want in a DMM for electronics, the rest you can do with instruments better suited to the more advanced measurement types.
AC and DC current modes into uA and a few other bits and bobs the 101 don't have. IIRC I paid $63 for mine which is not a lot more for a lot more DMM than a 101.

[Fungus]

I'm just trying to figure out why you think the Fluke 101 is bad value for money.

I just feel it's an extremely limited and simple instrument.  For the price you can source a good old Fluke slide switch model like a 8022

Oh, we're allowed to compare with second hand stuff?? By that metric your Brymen must be terrible value for money.

You already said that you hav "more approprate tools" for different jobs, the Fluke 101 may not be very good as a main multimeter but it's a very appropriate tool for certain jobs, and serves well as a second meter alongside a main one.

It's also small, cute, fits in my pocket, can light up a white LED, and I never worry about connecting it to "risky" circuits.

Close, 15B, before they did the + thing.

They don't make that one any more. The closest is the 12E but that's nearly twice the price of a 101.

For less money than a Fluke 12E you can get a Brymen with uA range and beep-jack alert.

Maybe you do your homework and tell us which one?

[tautech]

Close, 15B, before they did the + thing.

They don't make that one any more. The closest is the 12E but that's nearly twice the price of a 101.

For less money than a Fluke 12E you can get a Brymen with uA range and beep-jack alert.

Maybe you do your homework and tell us which one?

Oh you are tiresome and fucking lazy Fungus:
15B+ is $77 and took me 2 minutes to find one, they might even be available cheaper and although that's 50% more than a 101 it's worth it.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004275532822.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.376a4cabT6RXUE&algo_pvid=49fc01df-81e4-4f5f-a1c7-c93f5e886f75&algo_exp_id=49fc01df-81e4-4f5f-a1c7-c93f5e886f75-7&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000028597015212%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21135.0%2175.6%21%21%217.48%21%21%40210318bb16676389994774589ed930%2112000028597015212%21sea&curPageLogUid=M16FEyqEJ78e

[Black Phoenix]

Close, 15B, before they did the + thing.

They don't make that one any more. The closest is the 12E but that's nearly twice the price of a 101.

For less money than a Fluke 12E you can get a Brymen with uA range and beep-jack alert.

Maybe you do your homework and tell us which one?

Oh you are tiresome and fucking lazy Fungus:
15B+ is $77 and took me 2 minutes to find one, they might even be available cheaper and although that's 50% more than a 101 it's worth it.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004275532822.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.376a4cabT6RXUE&algo_pvid=49fc01df-81e4-4f5f-a1c7-c93f5e886f75&algo_exp_id=49fc01df-81e4-4f5f-a1c7-c93f5e886f75-7&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000028597015212%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21135.0%2175.6%21%21%217.48%21%21%40210318bb16676389994774589ed930%2112000028597015212%21sea&curPageLogUid=M16FEyqEJ78e

By the way, before he says something, the manuals in English are available in the Fluke website and no, the warranty is not worldwide because the item in question is only for the Chinese Market.

[tautech]

By the way, before he says something, the manuals in English are available in the Fluke website and no, the warranty is not worldwide because the item in question is only for the Chinese Market.

Right. 

Well we see enough posts about Dave's nice meters failing and Defpom down the road from me no longer uses his BM235....the only meter I might consider with the knowledge I can use it on anything I might encounter.
My 15B hasn't missed a beat in the nearly 10yrs I've had it and was brought with full knowledge there was no warranty outside China along with another 16 units, 15 supplied to a customer and 2 kept for warranty in case it was needed, it wasn't, these are Flukes.