Author Topic: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.  (Read 35146 times)

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2016, 08:20:26 pm »
Yes, 20 years ago  :palm:  Today, scopes have BWs of up to 100GHz with sample rates of up to 240GSa/s. Sampling scopes have long died out except for some very specific niches (i.e. optical high speed communication signals), and even there they have been/are subsequently replaced by real-time DSOs.

What are you talking about? They are all sampling scopes. Old ones used diode bridges to sample, new ones like the HP boat anchor use ADCs.

And yes, I was referring to things like high speed comms signals.

It is unfortunate that DSO could mean either digital sampling oscilloscope or digital storage oscilloscope.  In the past, "sampling" oscilloscopes referred to a very specific design where sampling occurred before attenuation and amplification so bandwidth was limited only by the sampling strobe width or transition time producing a non-linear but very predictable sin(x)/x frequency response.  They also have clean transient response and immunity to non-destructive overload.

As tggzzz points out, these oscilloscopes have been replaced by real time designs except in applications where their higher bandwidth for a given price makes up for their limitations.  The cheapest 12 GHz oscilloscope Tektronix sells is about $100k while you can buy a 12 GHz "sampling" oscilloscope from Picotech for $10k.  If used instruments are considered, then a 12 GHz sampling oscilloscope can be had for less than $1000; I bought mine for $400.

I keep hoping one of the budget DSO makers will add a sampling input to one of their instruments but I guess there is no market for 4 GHz of bandwidth at a budget price.

For the record, you've swapped attributions in the quotes. Otherwise, I agree.

And my 50ps risetime "scope" cost £20: a Tek1502 TDR. With some imaginative perversion of the calibration routines, it can measure the transition time of other outputs :)
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Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2016, 10:35:05 pm »
Thank you guys for good debate I have learned quite something from what you write.
I need a scope which will be on my desk and if needed ocasionally connected to PC to record some signals  for discuss it with others.
I have learned that some scopes can be hacked to higer frequency and some other things so I will buy one which gives me that possibillity.
Also think I will not need more than 2 channels, rather higher frequnecy than more channels.
So can we more talk about which models have more benefits than philosophical questions will I need that or this.
I work with digital and analog electronics, depends of what my project is.
Currently frequencies about 3.3Ghz to 60 Ghz.
Yes automatic is good for most simple measurments.
 

Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2016, 10:39:25 pm »
OK
few things popu what I may considere.
First high voltage
Second if scope can be hacked and get more out of it.
And third some have lan, or maybe USB to connect it to computer.
Three which have poppedup most are sigilent and rigol and owon

Rigol DS1054Z stands head and shoulders above everything else in the sub-$1200(ish) group simply because you can hack it and enable a ton of features. It's not an amazing device in itself, if you have a specific need like FFT there are better 'scopes. But ...  it's a good all-rounder, it's well built and all those features for $400 is hard to resist.

That scope is only 50Mhz

What about this one?
can it be hacked to get 200Mhz or more?

Rigol DS1104Z 100 MHz Digital Oscilloscope with 4 channels

price is verry afordable, about 600€
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 10:45:34 pm by Blisk »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2016, 11:13:10 pm »
OK
few things popu what I may considere.
First high voltage
Second if scope can be hacked and get more out of it.
And third some have lan, or maybe USB to connect it to computer.
Three which have poppedup most are sigilent and rigol and owon

Rigol DS1054Z stands head and shoulders above everything else in the sub-$1200(ish) group simply because you can hack it and enable a ton of features. It's not an amazing device in itself, if you have a specific need like FFT there are better 'scopes. But ...  it's a good all-rounder, it's well built and all those features for $400 is hard to resist.

That scope is only 50Mhz

What about this one?
can it be hacked to get 200Mhz or more?

Rigol DS1104Z 100 MHz Digital Oscilloscope with 4 channels

price is verry afordable, about 600€

The DS1054Z can be extended to a 100 MHz version, identical to the 1104Z by just entering a secret squirrel pass code.
Do a Google search for 'riglol' - yes, misspelled.

You will get, and keep, 100 MHz bandwidth, serial decoding, extended memory, etc.  All the stuff that comes free during the trial period and expires all too soon.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2016, 11:27:52 pm »
I work with digital and analog electronics, depends of what my project is.
Currently frequencies about 3.3Ghz to 60 Ghz.

You can afford a 60GHz scope?! I couldn't afford a 60GHz spectrum analyser :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2016, 05:49:35 am »
Thank you guys for good debate I have learned quite something from what you write.
I need a scope which will be on my desk and if needed ocasionally connected to PC to record some signals  for discuss it with others.
I have learned that some scopes can be hacked to higer frequency and some other things so I will buy one which gives me that possibillity.
Also think I will not need more than 2 channels, rather higher frequnecy than more channels.
So can we more talk about which models have more benefits than philosophical questions will I need that or this.
I work with digital and analog electronics, depends of what my project is.
Currently frequencies about 3.3Ghz to 60 Ghz.
Yes automatic is good for most simple measurments.
Don't you mean 3-60 MHz ?  :-//

OK so your interest is in the 100-200 MHz range.
There's a bit of choice within that range but if you settle on 200 MHz as requirement expect to have to pay a good bit more.
As I've mentioned before PC connectivity is not an issue with the modern DSO, they all have either LAN or USB or both.
From the Siglent stable there's 3 series to choose from that have 200 MHz models.
Once we get to these frequencies you might consider a higher sampling rate than 1 GSa/s and go for 2 GSa/s.
BUT it's a trade off with memory depth too in some models. All very well having a large sample rate but those samples need be stored to memory to then make all the features a DSO has truly useful.

2 or 4 channels....your call, many say they'd never have another 2 channel scope after getting a 4 channel one and yes I've got both BUT Siglent DSO's have a Ext Trigger input that can be used as a defacto 3rd channel or 5th in the case of a 4 channel DSO. Check any others you are interested in have this too. A use case of the Ext Trigger input might be to trigger on the clock of a serial protocol data stream.

For a truly basic 4 channel 200 MHz DSO, SDS1204CFL or the 2 channel version SDS1202CFL.
2 GSa/s sampling, only 24 Kpts memory though and no decoding etc.
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=58&T=2&tid=1

The 2nd from the Siglent stable, I've linked before the SDS1000X series, available up to 200 MHz and with better memory than above but only 1 GSa/s sampling and 2 channel only.
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=2373&T=2&tid=1

Currently top of our line is the SDS2000X series, 2 GSa/s, 70-300 MHz, 140 Mpts memory, 2 or 4 channel.
Edit
MSO capable as standard. (Option)
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1
There's a promotion running on these at the moment where the buyer gets a free BW upgrade, so you'd pay for a 100 MHz model and get the 200 MHz model free.

Keep throwing us questions Blisk and we'll do our best to fill in any questions you have.  :)


Edit added
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 08:00:10 am by tautech »
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Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2016, 07:10:12 am »
I work with digital and analog electronics, depends of what my project is.
Currently frequencies about 3.3Ghz to 60 Ghz.

You can afford a 60GHz scope?! I couldn't afford a 60GHz spectrum analyser :)
you don't have 100$?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-RF-spectrum-analyzer-Arinst-SSA-25-6000-MHz-Very-fast-measurements-/232119936171?hash=item360b6d24ab:g:TnsAAOSwaB5XtrEB
 

Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2016, 07:18:18 am »

Currently top of our line is the SDS2000X series, 2 GSa/s, 70-300 MHz, 140 Mpts memory, 2 or 4 channel.
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1
There's a promotion running on these at the moment where the buyer gets a free BW upgrade, so you'd pay for a 100 MHz model and get the 200 MHz model free.

Keep throwing us questions Blisk and we'll do our best to fill in any questions you have.  :)
Ok you promote Siglent is it hackable, like some others to get more from less?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2016, 07:37:25 am »
Rigol DS1054Z
That scope is only 50Mhz
50Mhz before unlocking, 100MHz after.

What about this one?

Rigol DS1104Z 100 MHz Digital Oscilloscope with 4 channels
Nope. That's exactly the same as an unlocked DS1054Z (but costs 200€ more).

To get more bandwidth you need to unlock a Rigol DS2000 series. The cheapest DS2000E is about 840€, 2 channels, and can be unlocked to 300MHz. That's a pretty good price for a 300Mhz 'scope.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2016, 07:49:01 am »

Currently top of our line is the SDS2000X series, 2 GSa/s, 70-300 MHz, 140 Mpts memory, 2 or 4 channel.
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1
There's a promotion running on these at the moment where the buyer gets a free BW upgrade, so you'd pay for a 100 MHz model and get the 200 MHz model free.

Keep throwing us questions Blisk and we'll do our best to fill in any questions you have.  :)
Ok you promote Siglent is it hackable, like some others to get more from less?
It probably is hackable, there are some Siglent products being hacked and the only the 2 that I'm aware of are SSA3000X spectrum analyser and the SDG2000X AWG.
But really there's little incentive to hack when Siglent offers these free bandwidth upgrades.
Sometimes there's cheap option packages too, buy 1 get all, that sort of promotion.

If you in any way need traceability of an instrument you'd be wise to not hack an instrument but get an official model from a manufacturer along with the calibration certificate they provide.
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Online Performa01

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2016, 08:16:50 am »
I work with digital and analog electronics, depends of what my project is.
Currently frequencies about 3.3Ghz to 60 Ghz.

You can afford a 60GHz scope?! I couldn't afford a 60GHz spectrum analyser :)
you don't have 100$?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-RF-spectrum-analyzer-Arinst-SSA-25-6000-MHz-Very-fast-measurements-/232119936171?hash=item360b6d24ab:g:TnsAAOSwaB5XtrEB


That’s not a spectrum analyser and it’s only 6GHz.
You could call that thing a spectrum monitor at best, in actual fact it’s just a toy.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2016, 08:46:45 am »
I work with digital and analog electronics, depends of what my project is.
Currently frequencies about 3.3Ghz to 60 Ghz.

You can afford a 60GHz scope?! I couldn't afford a 60GHz spectrum analyser :)
you don't have 100$?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-RF-spectrum-analyzer-Arinst-SSA-25-6000-MHz-Very-fast-measurements-/232119936171?hash=item360b6d24ab:g:TnsAAOSwaB5XtrEB


That’s not a spectrum analyser and it’s only 6GHz.
You could call that thing a spectrum monitor at best, in actual fact it’s just a toy.

+1

No offence Blisk, my suggestion is to hang around here for a while, read and search the forum. Tons of good resources here.

CMIIW, it looks like you don't know what you want, also don't have deep enough knowledge on T&M equipment, just listen n read to enrich your knowledge, rather than randomly quoting google searches.

There are already many good advises posted here by resident "experienced" members that looks like you keep ignoring.  :-//

Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2016, 02:13:24 pm »
I work with digital and analog electronics, depends of what my project is.
Currently frequencies about 3.3Ghz to 60 Ghz.

You can afford a 60GHz scope?! I couldn't afford a 60GHz spectrum analyser :)
you don't have 100$?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-RF-spectrum-analyzer-Arinst-SSA-25-6000-MHz-Very-fast-measurements-/232119936171?hash=item360b6d24ab:g:TnsAAOSwaB5XtrEB


That’s not a spectrum analyser and it’s only 6GHz.
You could call that thing a spectrum monitor at best, in actual fact it’s just a toy.

I know that it is not it was just what first came out.
Spectrum analyser is quite expencive device arround 2000$

I am reading now, learning and collecting money to buy oscilloscope.
I will do that in late november when collect all money I need.
 

Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2016, 08:29:58 pm »
Is there a list of scopes which can be hacked or software unlocked to get more out of it????
 

Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2016, 04:15:12 pm »
I thought tthis debate will continue with some more advices, what you can do with some of the oscilloscopes.
This one have 16 channels logic analyser. Don't know what exactly that mean???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rigol-Oscilloscope-50MHz-DS1052D-1G-SR-16-channels-logic-Analyzer-/321120739175?hash=item4ac4499f67:g:jLYAAOxyB0VRtdz2
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2016, 06:29:30 pm »
As you can see from the photo, the scope can display 16 digital channels along with 2 analog channels all on a little bitty screen (compared to a PC based logic analyzer).
This digital capability can be quite handy when working on mixed signal systems (analog and digital simultaneously) but many folks use a separate logic analyzer because, among other things, triggering can be much more complex (and useful) on a logic analyzer.
Dave did a video on mixed signal scopes


It's just a choice...
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2016, 06:32:49 pm »
I thought tthis debate will continue with some more advices, what you can do with some of the oscilloscopes.

Why?  We're 91 replies in and I don't see where there is more to add.
 

Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2016, 06:48:34 pm »
I thought tthis debate will continue with some more advices, what you can do with some of the oscilloscopes.

Why?  We're 91 replies in and I don't see where there is more to add.

For me it is quite alot more to learn, that's why. For you maybe not.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2016, 10:31:57 pm »
I thought tthis debate will continue with some more advices, what you can do with some of the oscilloscopes.

Why?  We're 91 replies in and I don't see where there is more to add.

For me it is quite alot more to learn, that's why. For you maybe not.
Read the thread again and again and again, there is much advice to research for you to make the choice that suits you best.
At the end of the day it is your money to spend, not ours.
At this level of equipment there will always be compromises in features that can be had.....even in much more expensive equipment too.

When it comes down to a particular model and you're unsure of any problems you may have read about....ask here again as many have been fixed in latest FW editions and this alone makes many reviews obsolete.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #94 on: November 04, 2016, 06:52:35 am »

When it comes down to a particular model and you're unsure of any problems you may have read about....ask here again as many have been fixed in latest FW editions and this alone makes many reviews obsolete.

Most of reviews are:

1. Mostly obsolete because FW changes.

2. More or less obsolete Because HW changed.

3. Because reviewer have more or less lack of knowledge, experience and skills about just this equipment and how to use it.

4. Because reviewer may have more or less lack of knowledge, experience and skills how to make reliable lab testings.

5. Because bias. Bias do not come only from money relationship. Just one brand owner may be very biased.  Just like peoples are when they fall in love and see only nice things and blind for every error. Or people may have some bad feel with some brand - in history - and after then he do not see nothing but errors and good things he close eyes and ears and brain. Some seller may be very biased and some seller less. Some sellers may be much much less biased than some people who have fall in love with some brand. Also some peoples are more honest than other.

6. Reviews what are designed to push down some brand - perhaps more common than peoples often think. This is because if you promote some equipment and tell how good it is in this and that and do some tricks every people suspect bias - even if it is true.   
But, do it opposite way,  support negative opinions about competitors without easy detectable relationship.  Drama theater is not very difficult sport.

Perhaps it is very fun result if we arrange blind tests or even double blind tests.
But simply, think what hapend if we remove all things what tell brand. Change all GUI so that no names and same colors and overall edit display so that direct recognize brand is difficult.  All scopes to box what are same, including knobs and buttons so that recognize is difficult or even impossible.
After then give these Keysight, Tektronix, LeCroy, Rigol, Siglent, Goodwill, etc  (some comparable level models) etc  to test group what are asked to do some designed measurements and tests. Then randomly selected test groups and randomized also equipments and so that other test groups can not get any info from other group. After all groups have made tests collect data and opinions...



Some reviews are just some kind of ranting and playing like kid with his first game boy.  Most bad are these "out from box" noob's made "reviews" where they do not understand even most basic fundamentals and then "wondering" things what they see and suspect that scope is bad more than think that they do not understand what they see and why. You can see  these  user errors and lack of knowledge even from popular reviewers what noobs admire and think they are popular because they know so much. It is easy to know much and stay front of "class room" if classroom is full of  noobs who are just starting hobby and perhaps just play with his first oscilloscope.

Mostly these, sometimes even very popular reviewers, very rare do and show any carefully designed and done lab grade test measurements. After look what kind of user mistakes they do even with simplest basic things some times,  it is easy to understand why they do not show reliable tests with true professional grade measurements with well designed and documented  test settings and after then well documented data.   
Some times they use equipment with fast fingers what are 10 times more fast than thinking behind fingers.
Some times there is available real professionals made reviews but they are rare. Many times peoples think they are boring. Because they do not play scope just like game boy where fastest finger win.
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Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2016, 09:33:10 pm »
As far as I read and google it is mostly RIGOL upgraded and can be upgraded to 300MHz.

Can I upgrade this Siglent to 100Mhz or more - Siglent 8" SDS2072?
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #96 on: November 07, 2016, 11:04:13 pm »
As far as I read and google it is mostly RIGOL upgraded and can be upgraded to 300MHz.

Can I upgrade this Siglent to 100Mhz or more - Siglent 8" SDS2072?

You need to read very carefully when considering upgrades.  The 50 MHz DS1054X can only be upgraded to 100 MHz, no higher.  Some 200 MHz scopes might be upgraded to 300 MHz but I know nothing about that.

According to this thread, you aren't going to hack the SDS2072 but last year Siglent did offer a free bandwidth upgrade.  That promotion may not be available this year.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/which-model-of-scope/
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2016, 05:09:36 am »
As far as I read and google it is mostly RIGOL upgraded and can be upgraded to 300MHz.

Can I upgrade this Siglent to 100Mhz or more - Siglent 8" SDS2072?

You need to read very carefully when considering upgrades.  The 50 MHz DS1054X can only be upgraded to 100 MHz, no higher.  Some 200 MHz scopes might be upgraded to 300 MHz but I know nothing about that.

According to this thread, you aren't going to hack the SDS2072 but last year Siglent did offer a free bandwidth upgrade.  That promotion may not be available this year.
It is and if you follow the link in Reply #80 to the Siglent European website you'll see it's still active:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/advice-about-oscilloscope-to-buy/msg1054445/#msg1054445

But it's only a 1 BW step for free promotion.
70-100 MHz, 100-200 MHz or 200-300 MHz. At the higher BW's it represents a good $ saving.
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Offline BliskTopic starter

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2016, 08:11:26 am »
As I read here 70Mhz can be unlocked to 300Mhz
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlockinghacking-the-rigol-ds2000a-series-scope-the-short-post/

Does Siglent SD2072 have the same hardware 100Mhz and 300Mhz or not?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Advice about oscilloscope to buy.
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2016, 09:21:08 am »
As I read here 70Mhz can be unlocked to 300Mhz
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlockinghacking-the-rigol-ds2000a-series-scope-the-short-post/

The Rigol DS2000 series can do that, yes.

Does Siglent SD2072 have the same hardware 100Mhz and 300Mhz or not?

No.
 


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