Analog meter advantages?

[Muttley Snickers]

It might look a bit rough around the edges but this little gadget has come to the rescue on many occasions, It has lived permanently in the tool box of my boats over many years and mainly comes out when somebody down at the boat ramp is having trouble with navigation lights and the like.

I won't be doing a teardown as the internals are all rather complex, at least they were when I put it together over twenty years ago, spare fuse inside for the current range and I've never blown one either, no batteries required.



 

[tggzzz]

There are no advantages. Analog meters are inherently inaccurate, hard to read and bulky.

Twit. Presuming you are not simply trolling, you are displaying narrow ignorance.

Some advantages that immediately spring to mind:

• they can measure charge; I've yet to see a digital meter that can do that
• no PSU, no batteries to run out - especially benefical in a shared environment where people adopt libertarian behaviour and don't behave for the common good
• faster when doing basic continuity checks: watch the needle start to deflect
• visible out of the corner of the eye when you are visually concentrating on the circuit
• easier to spot changes and anomolies - that's why they are used for preference in all cockpits or power station control rooms
• faster to read, thus increasing safety in cars. It takes longer to read 38mph than "just under 40mph". Digital = slower = not looking at the road to see the unexpected hazard ahead
• better at reading mean values - less susceptibility to circuit oscillations causing wildly false readings

Of course digital readouts have different advantages.

[HKJ]

Ammeters always have a burden voltage. Some of the newer ones are horrible to the point I rarely measure current.

The burden voltage from a clamp meter is rather low and will often be present even without the meter.
There do also exist current designs without burden voltage, I can do it with my SMU (But transient response is not perfect).

I do generally not see any reason to use analog meters, usual the right digital meter can do it better.

[mos6502]

Twit. Presuming you are not simply trolling, you are displaying narrow ignorance.

Presuming you're not simply trolling, you're displaying the nostalgia-clouded judgment and hostility of old age.

Some advantages that immediately spring to mind:

• they can measure charge; I've yet to see a digital meter that can do that
• no PSU, no batteries to run out - especially benefical in a shared environment where people adopt libertarian behaviour and don't behave for the common good
• faster when doing basic continuity checks: watch the needle start to deflect
• visible out of the corner of the eye when you are visually concentrating on the circuit
• easier to spot changes and anomolies - that's why they are used for preference in all cockpits or power station control rooms
• faster to read, thus increasing safety in cars. It takes longer to read 38mph than "just under 40mph". Digital = slower = not looking at the road to see the unexpected hazard ahead
• better at reading mean values - less susceptibility to circuit oscillations causing wildly false readings

Most of these are ridiculous. You're also confusing the topic of the thread (analog meters) with analog or analog type displays. Did you take all the meds the nurse gave you today?

But whatever. It makes no sense to argue with someone who is stuck in the 1960s.

Also, it's spelled "anomalies".

[tggzzz]

Clearly a troll making strawman arguments.

Evidence: you deliberately removed my statement that disproves your contentions. To make sure it can't be missed again: "Of course digital readouts have different advantages." in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/analog-meter-advantages/msg911228/#msg911228
Evidence: you make wild generic mis-statements while declining to address specific points that were made.

I'm happy to let others judge the validity of my statements.

Twit. Presuming you are not simply trolling, you are displaying narrow ignorance.

Presuming you're not simply trolling, you're displaying the nostalgia-clouded judgment and hostility of old age.

Some advantages that immediately spring to mind:

• they can measure charge; I've yet to see a digital meter that can do that
• no PSU, no batteries to run out - especially benefical in a shared environment where people adopt libertarian behaviour and don't behave for the common good
• faster when doing basic continuity checks: watch the needle start to deflect
• visible out of the corner of the eye when you are visually concentrating on the circuit
• easier to spot changes and anomolies - that's why they are used for preference in all cockpits or power station control rooms
• faster to read, thus increasing safety in cars. It takes longer to read 38mph than "just under 40mph". Digital = slower = not looking at the road to see the unexpected hazard ahead
• better at reading mean values - less susceptibility to circuit oscillations causing wildly false readings

Most of these are ridiculous. You're also confusing the topic of the thread (analog meters) with analog or analog type displays. Did you take all the meds the nurse gave you today?

But whatever. It makes no sense to argue with someone who is stuck in the 1960s.

Also, it's spelled "anomalies".

[Gyro]

You can of course get the best of both worlds....


P.S. Can someone with the username of 'mos6502' really accuse others of "nostalgia-clouded judgment and hostility of old age"? 

[vk6zgo]

Twit. Presuming you are not simply trolling, you are displaying narrow ignorance.

Presuming you're not simply trolling, you're displaying the nostalgia-clouded judgment and hostility of old age.

Some advantages that immediately spring to mind:

• they can measure charge; I've yet to see a digital meter that can do that
• no PSU, no batteries to run out - especially benefical in a shared environment where people adopt libertarian behaviour and don't behave for the common good
• faster when doing basic continuity checks: watch the needle start to deflect
• visible out of the corner of the eye when you are visually concentrating on the circuit
• easier to spot changes and anomolies - that's why they are used for preference in all cockpits or power station control rooms
• faster to read, thus increasing safety in cars. It takes longer to read 38mph than "just under 40mph". Digital = slower = not looking at the road to see the unexpected hazard ahead
• better at reading mean values - less susceptibility to circuit oscillations causing wildly false readings

Most of these are ridiculous. You're also confusing the topic of the thread (analog meters) with analog or analog type displays.

The OP said:- "
"I thought modern digital displays are preferred for a variety of reasons and the analog display is a legacy visualization format"

That brought the whole gamut of analog displays into the topic's purview.

Did you take all the meds the nurse gave you today?

Perhaps you should check your own!

But whatever. It makes no sense to argue with someone who is stuck in the 1960s.

Have you talked to anyone about your aggression problem?

Also, it's spelled "anomalies".

[Zbig]

I'm happy to let others judge the validity of my statements.

Ok, let me try.

Some advantages that immediately spring to mind:

• they can measure charge; I've yet to see a digital meter that can do that

Care to elaborate? If by measuring charge you mean checking whether there was some undefined amount of charge stored in the cap by seeing the needle kick and then slowly decay due to ridiculously low input impedance of the meter, I could just as well argue that my DMM makes a great blunt weapon.

EDIT:
I can't believe you haven't seen a DMM with a capacitance range so I'm no longer sure what you meant.

• no PSU, no batteries to run out - especially benefical in a shared environment where people adopt libertarian behaviour and don't behave for the common good

And how does that:

• faster when doing basic continuity checks: watch the needle start to deflect

work without one, exactly?

• visible out of the corner of the eye when you are visually concentrating on the circuit

The needle a width of a hair is better visible than a big, high-contrast LCD? Seriously? What about parallax error?

• easier to spot changes and anomolies - that's why they are used for preference in all cockpits or power station control rooms

Which cockpits exactly? B25 ones? Or maybe you meant fully digital avionics with some parameters displayed as *cough* bargraph *cough* for convenience?

• faster to read, thus increasing safety in cars. It takes longer to read 38mph than "just under 40mph". Digital = slower = not looking at the road to
  see the unexpected hazard ahead

I'll never get this one. It's the polar opposite for me. I guess our brains are just wired differently so I think there's not much point arguing this. BTW, you do realize that what the "analog" speedometer in any reasonably modern car really does is "guesses"/interpolates the readings between subsequent digital samples? Just look what it does towards the end when you decelerate to a full stop at traffic lights.

• better at reading mean values - less susceptibility to circuit oscillations causing wildly false readings

The very last thing I want from my meter is it lying to me, mis-representing a smoothed-out interpretation of what is really happening. This one is so silly I won't even waste my time commenting it.

[JPortici]

If i may, analog meters have one advantage, which is that you actually learn how to measure and analyze results.. how measuring can interact with the system under test
Or at least they gave me better understanding on the whole process while i was in tech scool, so i'd say they are great for educational purpose.
I also find them more immediate to read in certain scenarios. I guess we are wired differently

[tggzzz]

I'm happy to let others judge the validity of my statements.

Ok, let me try.

Some advantages that immediately spring to mind:

• they can measure charge; I've yet to see a digital meter that can do that

Care to elaborate? If by measuring charge you mean checking whether there was some undefined amount of charge stored in the cap by seeing the needle kick and then slowly decay due to ridiculously low input impedance of the meter, I could just as well argue that my DMM makes a great blunt weapon.

EDIT:
I can't believe you haven't seen a DMM with a capacitance range so I'm no longer sure what you meant.

Stunning. In case you hadn't noticed, capacitance and charge are completely different concepts, and are measured in different units - Farads and Coulombs.

Since you clearly weren't paying attention in school physics lessons, you might want to acquaint yourself with ballistic galvanometers, e.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_galvanometer

• no PSU, no batteries to run out - especially benefical in a shared environment where people adopt libertarian behaviour and don't behave for the common good

And how does that:

• faster when doing basic continuity checks: watch the needle start to deflect

work without one, exactly?

• visible out of the corner of the eye when you are visually concentrating on the circuit

The needle a width of a hair is better visible than a big, high-contrast LCD? Seriously? What about parallax error?

Sigh. If it is sufficient for you to be looking out of the corner of your eye, clearly [sic] high precision isn't relevant. Hence neither is your point.

• easier to spot changes and anomolies - that's why they are used for preference in all cockpits or power station control rooms

Which cockpits exactly? B25 ones? Or maybe you meant fully digital avionics with some parameters displayed as *cough* bargraph *cough* for convenience?

All the aircraft I've piloted. And some of them are so "high-tech" that their construction techniques are only just beginning to make it into commercial airliners.

• faster to read, thus increasing safety in cars. It takes longer to read 38mph than "just under 40mph". Digital = slower = not looking at the road to
  see the unexpected hazard ahead

I'll never get this one. It's the polar opposite for me. I guess our brains are just wired differently so I think there's not much point arguing this.

I doubt it. It is based on fundamental human characteristics; see any introductory textbook on HMI.

BTW, you do realize that what the "analog" speedometer in any reasonably modern car really does is "guesses"/interpolates the readings between subsequent digital samples? Just look what it does towards the end when you decelerate to a full stop at traffic lights.

I didn't. Sounds like pessimal engineering, unnecessarily merging the worst of all technologies

• better at reading mean values - less susceptibility to circuit oscillations causing wildly false readings

The very last thing I want from my meter is it lying to me, mis-representing a smoothed-out interpretation of what is really happening. This one is so silly I won't even waste my time commenting it.

You have an analogue meter that usefully displays a multi kHz/MHz oscillation superimposed on a DC signal? What type is it, because I would like to buy one.

And that's why anything with semiconductor junctions can be a problem in some circumstances - their non-linearity plus internal capacitance can provide "interesting" and difficult to diagnose effects.

[tggzzz]

P.S. Can someone with the username of 'mos6502' really accuse others of "nostalgia-clouded judgment and hostility of old age"? 

I wondered about making that comment, but I thought maybe the moniker was somehow related to his/her displaying the antartica flag.

[canthearu]

My first meters were analog. But they were crap cheapies, however, they weren't that bad to use. Wouldn't bring it near a high voltage circuit though.

A lot of industrial equipment uses analog anameters to show how much power various circuits are using. If the circuit isn't using the correct amount of power (say because an abrasive wheel isn't applying the correct pressure) they can be adjusted very easily in real time.

[tggzzz]

My first meters were analog. But they were crap cheapies, however, they weren't that bad to use. Wouldn't bring it near a high voltage circuit though.

Unfortunately the same is true of some digital meters - see many threads and videos on this site.

But, for reasons I've never understood, some people seem to trust electronic digits more than mechanical movement. The limitations of all equipment should be understood - anything else is (at best) intellectual laziness.

[MrSlack]

Indeed. The only meters I've blown up are due to human error, both analogue and digital.

Incidentally the analogue one was the only repairable one thanks to the protection diodes across the movement.

[nowlan]

Some older cars used to pulse out an error code. You would see the analog meter kick the number corresponding to fault.
A digital meter would flicker about.

[mzacharias]

An analog multimeter can provide the current necessary to "pop" a loudspeaker for a quick check, and even run a small DC motor. (Rx1 mostly...) Digital multimeters generally cannot do this. Even the Fluke 289 can barely make an audible "pop" using the 50 ohm range.

Rx10,000 will light white LED's, by the way. Only recently occurred to me to check this...

[Smith]

A whole generation used analog meters, and they have build some awesome stuff, so they can't be that bad. I personally prefer digital meters, but nothing beats digital meters with an analog bar.

Once I needed a current meter for a test setup. I did not have enough meters, so I used an old analog meter. It was then we saw there was a giant oscillation on the current signal (like 100%). The digital meters just showed the RMS value that was stable.

[Zbig]

Since you clearly weren't paying attention in school physics lessons, you might want to acquaint yourself with ballistic galvanometers, e.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_galvanometer

Keeping classy, huh?

Sigh. If it is sufficient for you to be looking out of the corner of your eye, clearly [sic] high precision isn't relevant. Hence neither is your point.

My point is, the needle is harder to see, either straight-on or "out the corner of my eye". And yours is...? That it doesn't really matter because the precision isn't relevant anyway so it's... better? I'm lost 

All the aircraft I've piloted. And some of them are so "high-tech" that their construction techniques are only just beginning to make it into commercial airliners.

Well, I haven't piloted any. I've only been to four cockpits and only one of them: Antonov AN-2 was "100% analog" (you know, the bi-plane one). Boeing 747 used combination of analog and steampunky CRTs. Not sure if it's in service anymore. Last time it was Bombardier CRJ-900 and you're more than welcome to point all this analog stuff to me, please because I have trouble spotting it:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=F2AEECE214DB131B!10837&authkey=!APtoY7Yrn7BKj1o&v=3&ithint=photo%2cJPG

I doubt it. It is based on fundamental human characteristics; see any introductory textbook on HMI.

Well, what could I say other than it's not really my problem if you doubt it or not? I recently got an analog (well, analog-display radio-controlled) clock because it looks good on my wall. Of course I can read it. But the signal path from my eyes to the realization what time it is is much shorter with digital clocks for me. Call me dumb if you like, I'm pretty sure I won't lose any sleep over that

You have an analogue meter that usefully displays a multi kHz/MHz oscillation superimposed on a DC signal? What type is it, because I would like to buy one.

And that's why anything with semiconductor junctions can be a problem in some circumstances - their non-linearity plus internal capacitance can provide "interesting" and difficult to diagnose effects.

You meant "digital", I presume? So, you say that the mere fact that we don't have ideal DMMs suddenly means that worse is better? I.e. if my DMM lies to me anyway, I should chose an analog one which distorts the reality much worse? What kind of broken logic is that?  BTW, my DMM can display both the DC and AC signal components (subject to some limitations you mentioned, obviously).

EDIT:
And I can enable smoothing in it, with the window size of my choice, when I feel like it and I am aware of the implications.

[tautech]

My first meters were analog. But they were crap cheapies, however, they weren't that bad to use. Wouldn't bring it near a high voltage circuit though.

Ha, funny how we all have a different interpretation of what's safe.

Any of my old AVO's that I rarely use are the first I grab for anything exceeding 1kV.
Many of them had ranges to 2.5 or 3 kV and factory flashover tests were conducted to 7kV.

Few DMM's if any offer such high voltage capability without HV probes. 

[Neilm]

You can of course get the best of both worlds....

Personally, I would worry about that - my first thought is that they have a digital measurement engine and are driving a moving coil. I have seen that on several bits of equipment I have looked at.

[HKJ]

Any of my old AVO's that I rarely use are the first I grab for anything exceeding 1kV.
Many of them had ranges to 2.5 or 3 kV and factory flashover tests were conducted to 7kV.

Few DMM's if any offer such high voltage capability without HV probes. 

DMM may not offer high voltage measurements but are tested with 8kV (Cat IV 600V).

[tggzzz]

Since you clearly weren't paying attention in school physics lessons, you might want to acquaint yourself with ballistic galvanometers, e.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_galvanometer

Keeping classy, huh?

Ah, another person that deliberately distorts the context in order to (fail to) make a point. Here it is again: "Stunning. In case you hadn't noticed, capacitance and charge are completely different concepts, and are measured in different units - Farads and Coulombs."

Ignorance of such basic concepts should alert people to question whether your other points have any validity.

All the aircraft I've piloted. And some of them are so "high-tech" that their construction techniques are only just beginning to make it into commercial airliners.

Well, I haven't piloted any. I've only been to four cockpits and only one of them: Antonov AN-2 was "100% analog" (you know, the bi-plane one). Boeing 747 used combination of analog and steampunky CRTs.

My principal experience is in aircraft that can and do fly higher than commercial airliners, are a damn sight prettier and more "sexy", and much more fun. Trivial examples: , and a 747 pilot having fun on his day off

Notice the cockpit in the latter. The rectangular screen is a moving map and flight management computer; a much better tool for that job than the slide rule (not calculator) alternatives.

I doubt it. It is based on fundamental human characteristics; see any introductory textbook on HMI.

Well, what could I say other than it's not really my problem if you doubt it or not? I recently got an analog (well, analog-display radio-controlled) clock because it looks good on my wall. Of course I can read it. But the signal path from my eyes to the realization what time it is is much shorter with digital clocks for me. Call me dumb if you like, I'm pretty sure I won't lose any sleep over that

Not dumb. Ignorant, and dogmatically sure that your own limited experience is generally applicable to other circumstances.

You have an analogue meter that usefully displays a multi kHz/MHz oscillation superimposed on a DC signal? What type is it, because I would like to buy one.

And that's why anything with semiconductor junctions can be a problem in some circumstances - their non-linearity plus internal capacitance can provide "interesting" and difficult to diagnose effects.

You meant "digital", I presume?

Doh! Quite right!

So, you say that the mere fact that we don't have ideal DMMs suddenly means that worse is better? I.e. if my DMM lies to me anyway, I should chose an analog one which distorts the reality much worse? What kind of broken logic is that?  BTW, my DMM can display both the DC and AC signal components (subject to some limitations you mentioned, obviously).

EDIT:
And I can enable smoothing in it, with the window size of my choice, when I feel like it and I am aware of the implications.

Yet again you don't read what I wrote, in order to make invalid strawman agruments. Since I have already repeated it once (i.e. written it twice before your posting, here it is again:  "To make sure it can't be missed again: "Of course digital readouts have different advantages.""

[tggzzz]

My first meters were analog. But they were crap cheapies, however, they weren't that bad to use. Wouldn't bring it near a high voltage circuit though.

Ha, funny how we all have a different interpretation of what's safe.

Any of my old AVO's that I rarely use are the first I grab for anything exceeding 1kV.
Many of them had ranges to 2.5 or 3 kV and factory flashover tests were conducted to 7kV.

Few DMM's if any offer such high voltage capability without HV probes. 

Precisely. It is all about knowing the strengths and limitations of each tool.

I wish all those confidently making statements would understand that.

[XynxNet]

Is there any special case where analog meters are preferred?

In basic physics education analog meters are preferred.

You have no problems with non significant digits. It is more obvious to pupils that every measurement has an error margin.
It is easier to understand how an analog meter works.
Instrument specific error types are easier to understand.
The necessity to convert the scale to get your measurement has a positiv effect on training to convert units.
You don't need batteries for A and V measurements.

In my experience education grade analogue meters can take more abuse than digital meters of a similiar price range. Be aware that abuse from a pupil is usually of a different kind than abuse from an engineer.
Measurement ranges and fuse ratings of education grade analogue meters are often more appropriate for basics physics experiments than those of cheap non-autorange digital meters.

With the last two points, keep in mind that schools often don't have the budget to buy top of the line digital meters.

[G0HZU]

I thought modern digital displays are preferred for a variety of reasons and the analog display is a legacy visualization format.  Is there any special case where analog meters are preferred?

As we all know, digital display technology is improving all the time in lots of ways so I can't think of many cases that still favour analogue meters but here's a few.

I know this has already been mentioned several times already, but an old school analogue meter needs no power source to read voltage and current. So I would prefer to pack an old/cheap/disposable 20k/V analogue meter in my car for VI troubleshooting. I would also expect a typical (cheap/disposable) DMM LCD to have display issues at cold temperatures.

Not my area of expertise but gas pressure is one area that still appears to be dominated by analogue meters. eg gas cylinder meters for divers or for other cylinders. Also fire extinguisher displays tend to be analogue. There may be digital alternatives but I don't think you need precision here. You just want a basic and reliable system that can work for long periods of time with zero maintenance. Just tap the dial and read the needle position?

There may be other cases where the zero maintenance argument applies too. eg temperature or strain gauges for certain critical  applications.

The basic and cheap SWR and power meters used for CB/ham radio are another example where analogue still has the advantage in terms of not needing batteries. It usually doesn't need accuracy in the display technology either because the underlying uncertainty of the RF sensing system is far greater than the uncertainty of the analogue dial itself.

There may be situations where you don't want digital logic causing noise pickup and an analogue display would be preferred?

So I think the analogue display still has some merit in some areas?

At home or at work I rarely use analogue meters for electronics based stuff even though I still have quite a few of them. I do like the analogue dB scale on my old Racal 9300 rms meter and my old HP431C power meter but these are only really at their best when tuning/peaking things.

I usually connect a DVM to the 'recorder' BNC connector at the back if I need to get better quality readings than the analogue display can offer .