Brymen ... Fluke ... (Why pay extra?)

[mamalala]

In light of the "why buy fluke if brymen has the sam specs" thread, that is, this one: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/if-brymen-bm869s-is-cheaper-and-as-good-why-people-would-still-buy-fluke/...

There is a difference between high voltage and high energy. You can easily probe a high voltage circuit, with virtually anything. A simple, small load resistor is sufficient. However, in a high energy circuit, things are quite different.

With a Fluke DMM i can be sure that _i_ don't blow up. Heck, i have a 83 III, and it serves me well. (Anecdote alert!) A friend of mine had to probe the output of a VFD controller ... And the cheap meter he had did, literally, blow up in his hand. He was lucky to not have suffered worse injuries besides some slight psychological damage. And what he meassured was only 400 volts or so. However, it was high energy.

Also, what others have said. There is no point in 5+ digit handheld DMM's, simply because you can't get the required accuracy from a low-power circuit over time. You need a decent reference, prefeably heated, etc, requiring a lot of power even if not "used"...

But anyways. Resolution is not the point. Fail-Safe is. I feel extremely comfortable with poking the probes of my Fluke at the entry point of the supply line of this house, and i don't have to care what the DMM is set to. Sure, if i want a sane reading i better switch it to what i want to meassure. But hey... The main fuses here are 200 amps, per phase. 3 phases, no less. And in the grand scheme of things, that could be considered "low power". But still... 380 volts (well, actually 400, between two phases) at 200 amps ... if something goes wrong when you probe that, what do you prefer? A DMM that is 100 bucks cheaper, but has virtually no track record of such a situation? Or one that is known to fail "safe"? In other words: How much is your life worth to you?

Yes, the Fluke has less digits. So what? The value it displays simply "is the thing". Who cares if it is 5.000 or 5.001 volts? And again, show me a reference that is usable for that kind of resultion in a battery powered device...

So, yes. I happily pay 600 bucks for a "shoddy spec'd" DMM if it comes from Fluke, instead of 300 bucks for a "can do all" but "newcommer" DMM from some other brand. After all, my life is worth way more than 300 bucks ... at least to me ... Heck, even my hand, in wich a low-cost DMM may blow up, is worth way more to me.

Greetings,

Chris

[Muxr]

People will always have different preferences. Even though I like my Fluke meters, I don't want to live in the world where Fluke is the only DMM. Someone has to keep them honest.

We all have different reasons for the tools we chose. Hopefully those reasons are educated.

As far as test equipment goes nothing else seems more future proof than a multimeter. The good ones are made to last for decades. It makes no sense to skimp on them imho. Especially when you consider how often we rely on them for measurement.

[TheBay]

My trusty old Fluke 77 Series II has survived EVERYTHING I have thrown at it, it's had years and years of abuse I love the thing, it works perfectly but it's a bit basic. I'd love another Fluke, but in the UK they are just not priced right to buy if you are not a business, I cannot find a good deal on a new meter anywhere, so looking at the next best alternatives.

[Muxr]

My trusty old Fluke 77 Series II has survived EVERYTHING I have thrown at it, it's had years and years of abuse I love the thing, it works perfectly but it's a bit basic. I'd love another Fluke, but in the UK they are just not priced right to buy if you are not a business, I cannot find a good deal on a new meter anywhere, so looking at the next best alternatives.

How does VAT work.. based on the declared value by the sender?

I know the prices are ridiculous for you guys who have to pay VAT, but there are tons of used Fluke deals on Ebay, I wonder if you could get a deal that way [and lower the VAT].

[TheBay]

We have to add 20% to the price of something if it's not listed with VAT.
If we buy from abroad there is 20% VAT to add and other fees if outside of EU.

My trusty old Fluke 77 Series II has survived EVERYTHING I have thrown at it, it's had years and years of abuse I love the thing, it works perfectly but it's a bit basic. I'd love another Fluke, but in the UK they are just not priced right to buy if you are not a business, I cannot find a good deal on a new meter anywhere, so looking at the next best alternatives.

How does VAT work.. based on the declared value by the sender?

I know the prices are ridiculous for you guys who have to pay VAT, but there are tons of used Fluke deals on Ebay, I wonder if you could get a deal that way [and lower the VAT].

[KedasProbe]

I don't think you should use the Brand name as a Safety Rating.
If it pasted the test to get that Rating.....

[Fungus]

I know the prices are ridiculous for you guys who have to pay VAT, but there are tons of used Fluke deals on Ebay, I wonder if you could get a deal that way [and lower the VAT].

They might charge you VAT anyway if somebody at the post office takes a fancy to the parcel.

How does VAT work.. based on the declared value by the sender?

Yep.

[rsjsouza]

I don't think you should use the Brand name as a Safety Rating.
If it pasted the test to get that Rating.....

+1 to that. After all, I am pretty sure that Brymen (and perhaps Gossen) have models with higher CAT ratings than Flukes.

If the CAT ratings do not tell the whole story (perhaps by evaluating the physical ability of the meter to resist an explosion due to arc flash), then I would agree that the Fluke models I have used seem to be more tough than the Brymens I used. But that is only anecdotal evidence.

However, I don't think this market generates enough revenue to create the infrastructure necessary to perform these explosion tests and translate into comparable results (such as crash tests).

[Fungus]

My trusty old Fluke 77 Series II has survived EVERYTHING I have thrown at it, it's had years and years of abuse I love the thing, it works perfectly but it's a bit basic. I'd love another Fluke, but in the UK they are just not priced right to buy if you are not a business, I cannot find a good deal on a new meter anywhere, so looking at the next best alternatives.

Fluke makes some quite good multimeters for China/India markets, eg. the 18B+. They go for about $120 on eBay.

Dave did a teardown of the 17B (from when they first started making meters for this market):


nb. That meter arrived in a mailbag video and there was more discussion/testing there:


Or if you want something basic but nuclear-bomb-proof then get a Fluke 27 on eBay.

But... if you want more features you might want to look at another brand. Fluke is more focused on safety+dependability than features-per-buck.

[poorchava]

Not everything made by Fluke is so great. They have some products that are evidently customised versions of Chinese stuff.

[Fungus]

Not everything made by Fluke is so great. They have some products that are evidently customised versions of Chinese stuff.

Do they actually sell a bad product?

It'll be a cold day in hell before they'd release a second-rate multimeter. They have no reason to and it's just not worth the hit they'd take to their reputation.

[saturation]

Its well done engineering.  The 101 has less parts, less to go wrong and they can spread them out more, that is clearance and creepages,  greater than what CAT III requires, making it more electrically robust compared to the dense parts of the 87V.

The 87V failed at 13kV still, that's far above the 8kV required by CATIII, so it faired well, but the 101 is tougher in that respect.  From the post mortem of the failure shown in joe smiths' video, it looks like conditioning diodes failed simultaneously suggesting the MOVs did not respond fast enough and allowed kV to enter the low volt stages and blow the diodes.

The 101 series, 15+ series, and the 117 series, maybe even more, are all made in China and if you compare the parts and PCB side by side, they look similar, suggesting its the same factory, and parts supplier.  Its designed well for manufacture, there are no 'bodges' or repairs at least from all the sample teardowns shown, very likely no hand soldering too, so the long term product costs are low [likely all automated] with few bad boards from production or Fluke bins bad board rather than repair them.

The DMM functions are fairly mundane, so that Fluke custom chip has been tried tested, whatever it is.  Fluke emphasizes toughness, reliability, dependability and ergonomics, over more functions or digits.

Its mostly the lack of functions for the cost of the DMM that others bring up when comparing other DMMs against Fluke.

Their product testing lab is NRTL quality, and they have metrology NIST grade NVLAP labs, which overall means they have the engineering expertise and equipment to make very high quality devices, all in house.

In the end, it shows the difference in Fluke product management, its not the country or people, its the engineers and managers designing the product that make the difference.

Now, as far as the sales and product support staff, that is another issue as its a whole different part of the company 

And yes, they charge you extra for all this behind the scenes stuff, too.   

given that there has been already much video review about high energy tests, etc etc. im actually more curious, what is the main factor that makes a fluke (esp the 101) out last even its own brother the 87? imagine if we could see (measure?) what was it that really failed when the energy levels ran over the dike walls (which "walls"?) ? 

who knows?  maybe there is a way to add a protection to the 87 and make it as "energy" proof as 101? maybe a small spark gap in a weak part? (it would probably involve destroying many more DMMs in finding that out lol  ) ... i wonder, did fluke destroy alot of 87s and then discover there is no other way? or they didnt?

[saturation]

I agree with fungus, Fluke is very quick to recall even the smallest problem with their devices they make, but what poorchava probably means is the made in China stuff I just discussed.

As for the reliability of their devices, its hard to say who is as good or near good to them.  The space shuttle program had fluke DMMs in their toolkit.  Several scopemeters are now the general troubleshooting tools left permanently in the space station.  With a special jacket, Fluke thermometers have been used in space walks, but otherwise these products are off-the-shelf, the same one's they sell to the public.

Its used almost exclusively by nearly all branches of the armed forces of the USA for gear maintenance, as well as by NASA, it could include many of the increasingly made in China DMMs today.

Not everything made by Fluke is so great. They have some products that are evidently customised versions of Chinese stuff.

Do they actually sell a bad product?

It'll be a cold day in hell before they'd release a second-rate multimeter. They have no reason to and it's just not worth the hit they'd take to their reputation.

[Fungus]

Its well done engineering.  The 101 has less parts, less to go wrong and they can spread them out more, that is clearance and creepages,  greater than what CAT III requires

Fluke describes the 101 as "extremely rugged".

I don't think they apply that term to any other low-end meter (or even high-end). They obviously took special care in the design of the 101 (not having an amps range helps, too).

[TheBay]

The 87V would be the minimum I'd want from Fluke, there is nothing wrong with my 77 Series II, it's just too basic for me, I need more functions.

My trusty old Fluke 77 Series II has survived EVERYTHING I have thrown at it, it's had years and years of abuse I love the thing, it works perfectly but it's a bit basic. I'd love another Fluke, but in the UK they are just not priced right to buy if you are not a business, I cannot find a good deal on a new meter anywhere, so looking at the next best alternatives.

Fluke makes some quite good multimeters for China/India markets, eg. the 18B+. They go for about $120 on eBay.

Dave did a teardown of the 17B (from when they first started making meters for this market):


nb. That meter arrived in a mailbag video and there was more discussion/testing there:


Or if you want something basic but nuclear-bomb-proof then get a Fluke 27 on eBay.

But... if you want more features you might want to look at another brand. Fluke is more focused on safety+dependability than features-per-buck.

[saturation]

Here is an equipment list for the Space shuttle and the last catalog for the US module of the ISS.  Then search the pdf for 'Fluke'.  If readers are interested, you can read what else is space worthy such as calculators and flashlights.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAAahUKEwj6lb_dtsfHAhUDHB4KHZbwA00&url=http%3A%2F%2Fld.hq.nasa.gov%2Fdocs%2FShuttle_IFM_Tool_Catalog.pdf&ei=EgzeVfrECIO4eJbhj-gE&usg=AFQjCNFE_aZRa0ZRb2eu9BGDphnSYo1RTA&sig2=GrfI3WSutLp7lF0mQXLf_w


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwj6tt-Ft8fHAhUJqx4KHVcKCFU&url=http%3A%2F%2Feveryspec.com%2FNASA%2FNASA-JSC%2FNASA-JSC-PUBS%2Fdownload.php%3Fspec%3DJSC-28533E.029700.pdf&ei=ZgzeVfrrIYnWeteUoKgF&usg=AFQjCNEiWdwSBbbVH9KxSAOe_rbBAOmVng&sig2=Y3XnnViHhq3Kccmqcr0CYw

[MT]

Its said among the insiders that the Chinese rower on the moon stopped working due to engineers had used Brymen apparatus to calibrate the temperature sensors!

On 18 April 2014, Wang Jianyu, deputy secretary general of the Chinese Society of Space Research stated that the failure is not mechanical but electrical and are looking to bypass it. He also explained, "The temperature on the Moon is considerably lower than our previous estimation, adding that "certain components may be suffering from "frostbite".[

[Muxr]

Here is an equipment list for the Space shuttle and the last catalog for the US module of the ISS.  Then search the pdf for 'Fluke'.  If readers are interested, you can read what else is space worthy such as calculators and flashlights.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAAahUKEwj6lb_dtsfHAhUDHB4KHZbwA00&url=http%3A%2F%2Fld.hq.nasa.gov%2Fdocs%2FShuttle_IFM_Tool_Catalog.pdf&ei=EgzeVfrECIO4eJbhj-gE&usg=AFQjCNFE_aZRa0ZRb2eu9BGDphnSYo1RTA&sig2=GrfI3WSutLp7lF0mQXLf_w


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwj6tt-Ft8fHAhUJqx4KHVcKCFU&url=http%3A%2F%2Feveryspec.com%2FNASA%2FNASA-JSC%2FNASA-JSC-PUBS%2Fdownload.php%3Fspec%3DJSC-28533E.029700.pdf&ei=ZgzeVfrrIYnWeteUoKgF&usg=AFQjCNEiWdwSBbbVH9KxSAOe_rbBAOmVng&sig2=Y3XnnViHhq3Kccmqcr0CYw

Only one spare battery. I'd bring an 87 too.

[Fungus]

If readers are interested, you can read what else is space worthy such as calculators and flashlights.

The calculator shown in the doc doesn't match the photo. Text says "EL-506RB", photo is an EL-531R.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121729219355

But ... it's a solar-powered version, which doesn't seem to exist.

OTOH the doc also says "modified for ISS" so maybe it's a custom-made calculator just for NASA.

[Lightages]

The thing to look for is not a brand name, but rather if the multimeter is third party tested to meet its claimed safety specification. If it has a TUV, UL, GS or similar test record to show it met its safety specification then you can trust it. If it merely says "CE" somewhere then go somewhere else. Also look for tear downs of the multimeter and see if the inside is actually built correctly. If the multimeter does not have a third party test certification and has a build that clearly can't meet its safety spec then avoid it. Fan boys and popular opinion are as useful as nipples on men. Look for proper certification and not the anecdotes of users who have never had a problem.

The brands who actually do real third party testing and can be trusted for their certifications include: Fluke, Brymen, Agilent, Gossen, Amprobe, Chauvin Arnoux, Yokogawa, and maybe others. I am sure that Hioki meets their safety ratings but they do not demonstrate any third party testing certifications. Manufacturers like Vichy, Victor, Uni-Trend, and others have been shown to be willing to bend the rules and make meters that don't come even close to meeting the safety specifications they have listed on their meters. Uni-T actually has one model of multimeter with two different approvals and construction. One is legal for sale in Europe and the other not. The difference? More input protection and a lower CAT rating.

Look for backed up claims instead of brands, popularity, or fan boyism.

[joeqsmith]

Its well done engineering.  The 101 has less parts, less to go wrong and they can spread them out more, that is clearance and creepages,  greater than what CAT III requires

Fluke describes the 101 as "extremely rugged".

I don't think they apply that term to any other low-end meter (or even high-end). They obviously took special care in the design of the 101 (not having an amps range helps, too).

Even that is an understatement!   

The 87V failed at 13kV still, that's far above the 8kV required by CATIII, so it faired well, but the 101 is tougher in that respect. 

That is correct.   Unlike every other meter that were tested at lower levels to determine where they failed, I had just assumed the 87V would handle the same transient that the 101 survived.   So, it was not ever tested at lower levels, only at the 13KV where it was damaged.   To present it as if it would have survived at 8KV is very misleading.

[saturation]

You're right Joe, I stand corrected.  It did survive volts but not ohms function.  It should be shown it did survive every impulse and tested to function. On Fluke's instructional video it does show the 87v surviving in volts mode up to 17kV but even then, they did not break each impulse test and check functionality like you did nor did they impulse it on the ohms mode.  Meter test begins at 16:00.

The 87V failed at 13kV still, that's far above the 8kV required by CATIII, so it faired well, but the 101 is tougher in that respect. 

That is correct.   Unlike every other meter that were tested at lower levels to determine where they failed, I had just assumed the 87V would handle the same transient that the 101 survived.   So, it was not ever tested at lower levels, only at the 13KV where it was damaged.   To present it as if it would have survived at 8KV is very misleading.

[joeqsmith]

You're right Joe, I stand corrected.  It did survive volts but not ohms function.  It should be shown it did survive every impulse and tested to function. On Fluke's instructional video it does show the 87v surviving in volts mode up to 17kV but even then, they did not break each impulse test and check functionality like you did nor did they impulse it on the ohms mode.  Meter test begins at 16:00.

Yes, I believe that is correct but would need to watch my own video to be sure.   Seems like it was just the higher resistance range.   A few other failed like this as well and were considered a failure as well.

The video makes it sound like they design the meter to survive the test.   But as you point out, they may only consider that in the voltage modes. 

I had seen Lightages had posted the following in the Beginners section:

None of the meters in his test did anything that could harm the user from what I have seen so far.

I think comments like this confuse people as well, especially in a forum targeted to beginners.   Not everyone understands what energy is and they see these sort of comments along with the 13KV and may think that a meter is robust because it survived my test.     I think this may have led Robomeds to post the comment:

Am I wrong in thinking that all of the meters you tested "passed" at least that part of the CAT 1 test since none caught fire, exploded etc?

Absolutely nothing wrong with that question and I am glad they asked.   I do think that people need to understand that most of the testing I did was 10J and less.   The starting point was under 1J and I could not even damage a small flashlight bulb!   When the final was ran between the Fluke and AMPROBE, there was hardly enough energy to light a 40W bulb let along damage a meter to the degree of the one shown in this video.     It was never my intent to run any sort of test like this but only to stress the meters front end circuits to see which was the most robust. 

People who think that 10J would ever do the sort of damage shown in this video need to go back to school.  Those that think I could pack a few KJs in a box that small give me way more credit than I deserve!   The second box was added just to get me to 20J!   

From a safety aspect, like many others have stated, I would go with meter that was independently checked.   I see the Brymen was. 

If we end up running another batch, I'm sure that people will continue to cloud this up.  I am not sure how to prevent it. 

[Muxr]

Actually from that video they talk about testing for transients in the ohms range as well for safety.

[saturation]

Yes.  The goal of safety certification is safety for the user and requires that safety be on all the ranges of the meter. 

It does not include that the device survive the transient.

Fluke literature says Fluke meters not only are safe to their CAT rating, but the device will survive the transient, which I presume means it will still be working to spec, per its data sheet.

What joe smith showed was so far, only the Fluke 101 survived and still functioned correctly after 13kV.

BTW, kudos must also be given to user "Meter Junkie" who independently tested the 101 at 12kV using a commercial grade impulse generator.  He as a video of the whole test sequence on joe smiths thread.  However, while the meter appeared, and he later discussed it was working as new, Meter Junkie didn't show on video it was working on every function tested.

Actually from that video they talk about testing for transients in the ohms range as well for safety.

[Robomeds]

Does Fluke actually claim their meters will survive the CAT tests?  I thought they only claimed the meter would survive the full rated voltage input in all settings (except for blowing fuses of course).  Thus a CAT III 1000V meter can have 1000V applied to the inputs in any range but at 1001V they only claim it will not cause harm.  At least that was what I took away from MJL's video visit to Fluke

[saturation]

Yep, Fluke states it will survive the rated impulse test and others in their environmental suite.

http://en-us.fluke.com/community/fluke-news-plus/electronic-news/fluke-lab-tortures-test-tools-so-technicians-feel-no-pain.html

Does Fluke actually claim their meters will survive the CAT tests?  I thought they only claimed the meter would survive the full rated voltage input in all settings (except for blowing fuses of course).  Thus a CAT III 1000V meter can have 1000V applied to the inputs in any range but at 1001V they only claim it will not cause harm.  At least that was what I took away from MJL's video visit to Fluke

[Fungus]

Yep, Fluke states it will survive the rated impulse test and others in their environmental suite.

http://en-us.fluke.com/community/fluke-news-plus/electronic-news/fluke-lab-tortures-test-tools-so-technicians-feel-no-pain.html

"Fluke multimeters are subjected to repeated jolts of high voltage to prove they can withstand voltage spikes from lightning or other causes without damage to the product or harm to their users."

Again we see Fluke going beyond the standard's requirements.

[fanOfeeDIY]

I found the links about Hioki's CE marks.

The pdf to the details of which EN regulations that Hioki is confirming for the CE marks.
http://www.hioki.com/filedownload/DT4281A999_03.pdf?t=conformity&iid=1_382

The pdf explaining to the end users about how Hioki's multimeters confirming to CE marks.
(unfortunately only in Japanese)
https://www.hioki.co.jp/products/file.php?t=catalog&iid=1_802

If I were CEO of the Hioki, I would probably try to be listed on UL/CSA but Hioki is relatively small Japanese company who only has factory in Japan, and probably they may not able to afford the cost for the UL/CSA certification at the moment.

The general reputation of Hioki's multimaters in Japan is less practical than Fluke 87V but seemed to have the fasted CPU for autorange and settle readings among others.

[saturation]

Thanks, good links.  From the google translation, its clear Hioki understands what's needed and the CE mark will allow them to sell this product worldwide.  But, jobs regulated by OSHA in the USA require an NRTL safety mark, so Hioki automatically excludes an entire industry from its DMM sales. 

https://www.hioki.com/corporate/ir.php

Based on the financial statement, they make most of their business in Asia.

The mark is not that expensive long term, even Mastech is finally getting its products safety marked,  in this case by ETL.

http://www.p-mastech.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=249&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29&vmcchk=1&Itemid=29

Confirming the above DMM with Intertek:

http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/4c8700f3b75987a08525777700583333/fff76e50fca54bc186257e99002f11a4?OpenDocument

I found the links about Hioki's CE marks.

If I were CEO of the Hioki, I would probably try to be listed on UL/CSA but Hioki is relatively small Japanese company who only has factory in Japan, and probably they may not able to afford the cost for the UL/CSA certification at the moment.

The general reputation of Hioki's multimaters in Japan is less practical than Fluke 87V but seemed to have the fasted CPU for autorange and settle readings among others.

[Lightages]

That is good to see, another manufacturer taking things more seriously. Perhaps if Mastech is doing this then their quality might improve too.

[KGB]

Many (or all?) Hioki has KC mark.

As "Korea Certification" by KETI (Korea Electric Testing Institute), but it can performed by Intertek as well:
http://www.intertek.com.hk/electronics/kc-mark/

Oh, and this is definitely known:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=PICQ.E201570&ccnshorttitle=Measuring,+Testing+and+Signal-generation+Equipment&objid=1074559392&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073991173&sequence=1

Cheers

[Wytnucls]

Szia, good research job, KGB! 

[saturation]

Yes, unfortunately Korea merged the EMC mark, "KCC" and its safety mark "KC" a few years ago, so its unclear what that mark means.  It usually means EMC when there are no serial numbers beside the mark, but the law is badly written as KETI states if the numbers can't fit the chassis, you can write it on the manual or box.  If your meter has a series of digits beside the KC mark, it could be safety rated.

http://www.kc-mark.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=1

A manufacturer can receive the KC mark if they pass safety or EMC.  In 2012 the KETI revised the rule to require BOTH.

http://www.bizhard.com/pub/weblink.aspx?type=download&guid=OUFFMjBBRDVGMTMyRjAyRkUwNDAwMDdGMDEwMDYxMER8MTEyMjU0ODQ4.pdf

As example, see photo, a proper KC mark, see red B, should include a series of numbers that when decoded, specify what its rated for.  For example, here is a KC mark for a Fluke DMM.

Because the KC mark is unclear, it is not recognized as a safety mark by safety agencies like OSHA in the USA or ESA in Ontario.

That's why in the Fluke DMM above, they include all 3 marks, CE for the EU, CSA for international, red A in photo, and KC for Korea, just to be sure.

That Hioki was willing to get some of its products UL listed as linked below means Hioki's management knew how to certify a product and deliberately released Hioki's newest DMMs line without a clear internationally recognized safety mark.

Note, KC mark being problematic is not alone, the Japanese "PSE",  Russian mark, "EAC", China's CCC are not recognized in North America.   But if you get an ETL mark from Korea or China, it will be valid in the US or Canada, because Intertek provides a clear set of procedures for what that mark entails.

Many (or all?) Hioki has KC mark.

As "Korea Certification" by KETI (Korea Electric Testing Institute), but it can performed by Intertek as well:
http://www.intertek.com.hk/electronics/kc-mark/

Oh, and this is definitely known:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=PICQ.E201570&ccnshorttitle=Measuring,+Testing+and+Signal-generation+Equipment&objid=1074559392&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073991173&sequence=1

Cheers

[KGB]

Unfortunately, you're right.

A simple KC mark in Korea means about same as the CE mark in Europe:

http://www.intertek.com/consumer/news/v84-kc-standard-mark/

http://www.bureauveritas.com/home/about-us/our-business/cps/resources/q-a/qa-kc-mark

 

[saturation]

Yes, I didn't want to mention the KC mark is to be used on non-electronic products, adds to more confusion.   



The official format will be:



Then with the codes, you can figure out what exactly its certified for.  KETI certification is the only agency I've seen follow the whole law correctly including the options, while the Fluke DMM did not include the actual manufacturer.

In this charger, you see the certifying agency, the serial number and the full name of the manufacturer.

Unfortunately, you're right.

A simple KC mark in Korea means about same as the CE mark in Europe:

http://www.intertek.com/consumer/news/v84-kc-standard-mark/

http://www.bureauveritas.com/home/about-us/our-business/cps/resources/q-a/qa-kc-mark

 

[fanOfeeDIY]

I feel bit sorry for destructing this thread
The initial thread is about Brymen or Fluke.

I should have post the links of Hioki at the some Hioki's thread.

Going back to the title of this thread,

this is only my personal opinion,
picking up the Fluke 87V at the store and switching the rotary knobs
is enough to grasp why the Fluke is "The Standard" of handheld multimeters.

[lacek]

picking up the Fluke 87V at the store and switching the rotary knobs
is enough to grasp why the Fluke is "The Standard" of handheld multimeters.

This contrasts the experience with Brymen?

Anyway 8kV resistance is a nice thing, but I am not seeing myself measuring higher voltages than 230 AC mains (maybe 400 V in case there is a major problem with the energy supply at my home). If Fluke survived 100kV voltages would not rise its usability for me at all.

There are much more aspects that require attention than high power/voltage certification. Say, burden voltage on low current setting.

[P90]

I feel bit sorry for destructing this thread
The initial thread is about Brymen or Fluke.

I should have post the links of Hioki at the some Hioki's thread.

Going back to the title of this thread,

this is only my personal opinion,
picking up the Fluke 87V at the store and switching the rotary knobs
is enough to grasp why the Fluke is "The Standard" of handheld multimeters.

2 years later... try turning the selector on a UEU 396, 397 multimeter...

[rstofer]

More to the point, from my point of view:  Why are the operators in the videos using a DMM to test power circuits?  That's overkill when all you need is a qualitative measure - it's hot or it's not.

So, I prefer a solenoid style tester like the Knopp Wiggy
http://www.knoppinc.com/voltage_tester_comparison.htm

True, it's only CAT III at 600V but that's where I work (before I retired) and when I'm higher than that, I get a reading off a potential transformer.

I like the fact I can feel the Wiggy jump in my hand when it is connected to an energized point.  That's all I need to know.  I don't need decimal places.

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't.  My other meters are 'junk' from a safety perspective except that I only use them at 24V and below.

I agree with everything above re: buy the Fluke, get the ratings but then consider why you are using a DMM in the electrical trade.  Yes, there are applications but routine troubleshooting isn't one of them.  Control systems and VFDs probably are...

In any event, I will never use my 189 on a power circuit.  It cost too much!  That, and I'm retired so I don't do that kind of stuff anymore.

I kind of remember this very conversation back in the early '60s when I wanted to use a V-O-M and my father handed me a Wiggy.  He was right!

BTW, be aware that the Wiggy is very low impedance and this can provoke unintended consequences in machinery - like energizing the relay that launches the missile...

[joeqsmith]

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't. 

What certification do you feel is well enough?

[rstofer]

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't. 

What certification do you feel is well enough?

Well, it claims CAT IV 600V, CAT III 1000V and has both UL and TUV marks and a double insulated symbol.  I suspect it would be just fine in an industrial application at 600V and below.  I haven't read, nor do I have access to, UL Standard 61010-1 to figure out how the meters are actually tested.  I probably wouldn't understand it even if I did have a copy.

Somehow, I think it's good to go.  But I don't have to think about it, I'm retired.  Let somebody else think about it.

[Lightages]

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't.

 

Many Brymens are rated at CATIV 1000V with 3rd party testing certification to back this up. How is this not "certified well enough"? it is the highest rating available.

[ProBang2]

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't.

 

Many Brymens are rated at CATIV 1000V with 3rd party testing certification to back this up. How is this not "certified well enough"? it is the highest rating available.

May be a typo of rstofer...   

Brymen DMMs achieve Cat III 1000V and Cat IV 1000V ratings, UL-listed.   
Fluke DMMs "only" Cat III 1000V and Cat IV 600V ratings, UL-listed.   

[Electro Detective]

My 6.2 

The Brymen may be ok (I wouldn't say no to using it) but the Fluke can get one access into any job site or entertainment venue just by waving it around  (regardless if the meter is not working or no batteries fitted)  and saying "I'm here to fix the rooted air-conditioner (lighting system, the boss's jacuzzi etc) and you better not be THAT GUY that called and interrupted me doing the business on the can saying it was fkn urgent,
and I soon find out it wasn't! 
Where is this fault anyway? Never mind, I can see you're too busy, I'll find it on my own as always, thanks Bud... " 

If you try that same stunt with a Brymen, the security people will laugh at you and say they have the same SCA meter too at home in the garage,
a Christmas present from wifey scored from SuperCheap Auto's sale catalogue   

[P90]

My 6.2 

The Brymen may be ok (I wouldn't say no to using it) but the Fluke can get one access into any job site or entertainment venue just by waving it around  (regardless if the meter is not working or no batteries fitted)  and saying "I'm here to fix the rooted air-conditioner (lighting system, the boss's jacuzzi etc) and you better not be THAT GUY that called and interrupted me doing the business on the can saying it was fkn urgent,
and I soon find out it wasn't! 
Where is this fault anyway? Never mind, I can see you're too busy, I'll find it on my own as always, thanks Bud... " 

If you try that same stunt with a Brymen, the security people will laugh at you and say they have the same SCA meter too at home in the garage,
a Christmas present from wifey scored from SuperCheap Auto's sale catalogue   

put down that crack pipe and step away from the computer...   

[rstofer]

Many Brymens are rated at CATIV 1000V with 3rd party testing certification to back this up. How is this not "certified well enough"? it is the highest rating available.

Well, if we play along with the Fluke video, the fact that MY Brymen BM235 is rated CAT IV 300V, CAT III 600V, CAT II 1000V wouldn't be all that impressive.  It also has the double insulated mark but that comes along with the all-plastic housing.  The fact that there is ONLY a UL mark and no secondary inspection mark (TUV?) doesn't seem to put it in the class with my Fluke 189.  I don't see another 3rd party mark on MY Brymen BM235.

I should have been more specific about WHICH Brymen.  Like every manufacturer, Brymen has a range of offerings.  Even the BM235 may be eligible for the TUV mark but it doesn't have it (on MINE).  Having a UL mark isn't all that impressive, all things considered.  I want a mark that shows the Germans are involved.  They won't let anything slip by!  The CE mark is meaningless and MY BM235 doesn't have one anyway.

A long time back ('78?), I saw the results of an old Simpson 260 applied to a high energy 480V circuit while in a non-voltage mode.  The case literally exploded, embedding plastic in the operator and causing the attending engineer to NEVER work around electrical again.

If the operator had been using the right tool, the accident wouldn't even have been possible.  A Wiggy only measures voltage.  There is no range switch, no resistance ranges, no current ranges, just voltage and even that has no range switching.  More important, you don't have to take your eyes off the probe to see the reading.  When you put a Wiggy on 480V, you KNOW you have voltage.  The thump from the solenoid is all you need to feel.  And it doesn't use a battery.  Alas, it doesn't have a TUV mark...  Probably because it isn't exported.

[noidea]

I guess depending on what you work on your "wiggy" may be sufficient but I'm a HVAC tech and when the things you work on require testing AC at 240-415V, DC from 5- 585V and then resistance testing from ohms to Megohms and diode check function then a decent DMM really is your only option, if you can measure temperature with that device as well then even better.

I have always had Fluke meters but recently decided to give a Brymen 257s a go to replace a Fluke 12 that I had drop calibrated one too many times . so far I would say its a pretty tough meter

I was running a training session for technicians on inverter split system A/C's about a week ago and had been going through some component testing with the techs using diode check function on the BM257s. The next thing was some voltage tests on the main PCB of a unit and I absent mindedly forgot to change the meter from diode check mode and proceeded to put 240VAC onto the diode input of the meter  I saw the screen go blank, said something along the lines of "Oh F%$!" regained my composure and proceeded to explain to my audience that you should always remember to turn your meter off diode check before you turn the power back on  .

After turning the meter off and waiting for a moment it was fine. 

[rstofer]

I guess depending on what you work on your "wiggy" may be sufficient but I'm a HVAC tech and when the things you work on require testing AC at 240-415V, DC from 5- 585V and then resistance testing from ohms to Megohms and diode check function then a decent DMM really is your only option, if you can measure temperature with that device as well then even better.

As I said earlier, there are environments where a DMM is required.  Troubleshooting low voltages, resistance or diode checks are out of the question for a pure voltage tester.  No question, the DMM, or better, the specialized HVAC DMMs are the way to go.

HVAC isn't at all the same as electrical, especially on small systems.  But larger systems, like 1000 ton chillers and hundred HP fans generally fall into the electrical category.  Not much 24VAC involved!  More often than not, the fine controls are pneumatic with the occasional pressure switch to interact with the electrical stuff.  Mostly, the controls are 120VAC and the DMM is again the wrong tool.

[rstofer]

I use my DMMs for electronics, rarely for electrical.  So I went looking around at the Fluke electrical offerings...

I ran across the T-PRO Electrical Tester and I rather like the concept.  I get a fast visual indication of the voltage level and I can read the digital value if I wish.  It has low level visual indications like 12V and 24V as well as the common 120-208-240-277-480V levels.  It also vibrates like a solenoid style tester and has a beeper for voltage detection.  This could be a really handy meter for electricians!

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-T-PRO-Electrical-Tester/dp/B000VRHD4S/ref=pd_sbs_469_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000VRHD4S&pd_rd_r=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0&pd_rd_w=IN8RC&pd_rd_wg=6EpjC&psc=1&refRID=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0

The Amazon ad says it does open jaw current testing but I don't think that is true.  Perhaps there is an accessory.

I may just buy one of these for use around the house.  Clearly, I have other testers but this unit seems like it would be fantastic.

Did I mention is also figures out phase rotation on 3 phase circuits?  Now that's cool considering they do it with just 2 wires.  My trusty Knopp phase rotation meter can finally retire!

[BMack]

I use my DMMs for electronics, rarely for electrical.  So I went looking around at the Fluke electrical offerings...

I ran across the T-PRO Electrical Tester and I rather like the concept.  I get a fast visual indication of the voltage level and I can read the digital value if I wish.  It has low level visual indications like 12V and 24V as well as the common 120-208-240-277-480V levels.  It also vibrates like a solenoid style tester and has a beeper for voltage detection.  This could be a really handy meter for electricians!

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-T-PRO-Electrical-Tester/dp/B000VRHD4S/ref=pd_sbs_469_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000VRHD4S&pd_rd_r=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0&pd_rd_w=IN8RC&pd_rd_wg=6EpjC&psc=1&refRID=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0

The Amazon ad says it does open jaw current testing but I don't think that is true.  Perhaps there is an accessory.

I may just buy one of these for use around the house.  Clearly, I have other testers but this unit seems like it would be fantastic.

Did I mention is also figures out phase rotation on 3 phase circuits?  Now that's cool considering they do it with just 2 wires.  My trusty Knopp phase rotation meter can finally retire!

Looks like the listing displays the info of the Fluke T5-600.

I have a couple of clamp meters, a Fluke 324 and a Klein CL700, even though I'm a Fluke fanboy I can't see a single reason to take the Fluke over the Klein. DMMs are a different story, Fluke is my choice. I'd like to try Hioki or Brymen but I trust Fluke, it costs me money when I can't trust something and it takes time to earn trust.

[rstofer]

I use my DMMs for electronics, rarely for electrical.  So I went looking around at the Fluke electrical offerings...

I ran across the T-PRO Electrical Tester and I rather like the concept.  I get a fast visual indication of the voltage level and I can read the digital value if I wish.  It has low level visual indications like 12V and 24V as well as the common 120-208-240-277-480V levels.  It also vibrates like a solenoid style tester and has a beeper for voltage detection.  This could be a really handy meter for electricians!

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-T-PRO-Electrical-Tester/dp/B000VRHD4S/ref=pd_sbs_469_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000VRHD4S&pd_rd_r=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0&pd_rd_w=IN8RC&pd_rd_wg=6EpjC&psc=1&refRID=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0

The Amazon ad says it does open jaw current testing but I don't think that is true.  Perhaps there is an accessory.

I may just buy one of these for use around the house.  Clearly, I have other testers but this unit seems like it would be fantastic.

Did I mention is also figures out phase rotation on 3 phase circuits?  Now that's cool considering they do it with just 2 wires.  My trusty Knopp phase rotation meter can finally retire!

Looks like the listing displays the info of the Fluke T5-600.

I have a couple of clamp meters, a Fluke 324 and a Klein CL700, even though I'm a Fluke fanboy I can't see a single reason to take the Fluke over the Klein. DMMs are a different story, Fluke is my choice. I'd like to try Hioki or Brymen but I trust Fluke, it costs me money when I can't trust something and it takes time to earn trust.

Yes, there are two versions: the T5-600 and the T5-1000 and it's the -1000 that does the open jaw current testing.   It costs a bit more.

There's certainly nothing wrong with the CL700, it looks like a great tester, but for current measurements, I am using a 54 year old Amprobe.  It clearly doesn't have the accuracy or precision of the modern digital units.  But it works fine...

There is a tendency to wrap up all the measurement functions in a single unit.  Cost wise it makes sense but there is something to be said for a meter/tester that does just one thing and doesn't have a selector switch that can be set incorrectly.

Two things I am looking for:  First, I don't want clunky, I have to be able to manipulate the tool easily within the work environment.  Why are terminal blocks tight against the wall of the enclosure?

Second, I don't want to have to take my eyes away from where I'm probing to check the measurement.  I prefer some kind of tactile feedback when, more often than not, I'm only interested in hot or not.  These are artificial requirements, other opinions will vary.

It's a good thing I am retired and don't have to consider all the options out there today.  I'm a big fan of Klein tools and I still have some from way back in the mid '60s.

[P90]

I use my DMMs for electronics, rarely for electrical.  So I went looking around at the Fluke electrical offerings...

I ran across the T-PRO Electrical Tester and I rather like the concept.  I get a fast visual indication of the voltage level and I can read the digital value if I wish.  It has low level visual indications like 12V and 24V as well as the common 120-208-240-277-480V levels.  It also vibrates like a solenoid style tester and has a beeper for voltage detection.  This could be a really handy meter for electricians!

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-T-PRO-Electrical-Tester/dp/B000VRHD4S/ref=pd_sbs_469_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000VRHD4S&pd_rd_r=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0&pd_rd_w=IN8RC&pd_rd_wg=6EpjC&psc=1&refRID=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0

The Amazon ad says it does open jaw current testing but I don't think that is true.  Perhaps there is an accessory.

I may just buy one of these for use around the house.  Clearly, I have other testers but this unit seems like it would be fantastic.

Did I mention is also figures out phase rotation on 3 phase circuits?  Now that's cool considering they do it with just 2 wires.  My trusty Knopp phase rotation meter can finally retire!

Looks like the listing displays the info of the Fluke T5-600.

I have a couple of clamp meters, a Fluke 324 and a Klein CL700, even though I'm a Fluke fanboy I can't see a single reason to take the Fluke over the Klein. DMMs are a different story, Fluke is my choice. I'd like to try Hioki or Brymen but I trust Fluke, it costs me money when I can't trust something and it takes time to earn trust.

Yes, there are two versions: the T5-600 and the T5-1000 and it's the -1000 that does the open jaw current testing.   It costs a bit more.

There's certainly nothing wrong with the CL700, it looks like a great tester, but for current measurements, I am using a 54 year old Amprobe.  It clearly doesn't have the accuracy or precision of the modern digital units.  But it works fine...

There is a tendency to wrap up all the measurement functions in a single unit.  Cost wise it makes sense but there is something to be said for a meter/tester that does just one thing and doesn't have a selector switch that can be set incorrectly.

Two things I am looking for:  First, I don't want clunky, I have to be able to manipulate the tool easily within the work environment.  Why are terminal blocks tight against the wall of the enclosure?

Second, I don't want to have to take my eyes away from where I'm probing to check the measurement.  I prefer some kind of tactile feedback when, more often than not, I'm only interested in hot or not.  These are artificial requirements, other opinions will vary.

It's a good thing I am retired and don't have to consider all the options out there today.  I'm a big fan of Klein tools and I still have some from way back in the mid '60s.

 


they both measure current thorough the open jaw, in fact they are the same, exept the T5-600 measures to 600 volts and the T5-1000 measures to 1000 volts, hence the naming convention...

[BMack]

I use my DMMs for electronics, rarely for electrical.  So I went looking around at the Fluke electrical offerings...

I ran across the T-PRO Electrical Tester and I rather like the concept.  I get a fast visual indication of the voltage level and I can read the digital value if I wish.  It has low level visual indications like 12V and 24V as well as the common 120-208-240-277-480V levels.  It also vibrates like a solenoid style tester and has a beeper for voltage detection.  This could be a really handy meter for electricians!

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-T-PRO-Electrical-Tester/dp/B000VRHD4S/ref=pd_sbs_469_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000VRHD4S&pd_rd_r=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0&pd_rd_w=IN8RC&pd_rd_wg=6EpjC&psc=1&refRID=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0

The Amazon ad says it does open jaw current testing but I don't think that is true.  Perhaps there is an accessory.

I may just buy one of these for use around the house.  Clearly, I have other testers but this unit seems like it would be fantastic.

Did I mention is also figures out phase rotation on 3 phase circuits?  Now that's cool considering they do it with just 2 wires.  My trusty Knopp phase rotation meter can finally retire!

Looks like the listing displays the info of the Fluke T5-600.

I have a couple of clamp meters, a Fluke 324 and a Klein CL700, even though I'm a Fluke fanboy I can't see a single reason to take the Fluke over the Klein. DMMs are a different story, Fluke is my choice. I'd like to try Hioki or Brymen but I trust Fluke, it costs me money when I can't trust something and it takes time to earn trust.

Yes, there are two versions: the T5-600 and the T5-1000 and it's the -1000 that does the open jaw current testing.   It costs a bit more.

There's certainly nothing wrong with the CL700, it looks like a great tester, but for current measurements, I am using a 54 year old Amprobe.  It clearly doesn't have the accuracy or precision of the modern digital units.  But it works fine...

There is a tendency to wrap up all the measurement functions in a single unit.  Cost wise it makes sense but there is something to be said for a meter/tester that does just one thing and doesn't have a selector switch that can be set incorrectly.

Two things I am looking for:  First, I don't want clunky, I have to be able to manipulate the tool easily within the work environment.  Why are terminal blocks tight against the wall of the enclosure?

Second, I don't want to have to take my eyes away from where I'm probing to check the measurement.  I prefer some kind of tactile feedback when, more often than not, I'm only interested in hot or not.  These are artificial requirements, other opinions will vary.

It's a good thing I am retired and don't have to consider all the options out there today.  I'm a big fan of Klein tools and I still have some from way back in the mid '60s.

I thought you were talking about the T-PRO Electrical Tester based on your paragraph before the link and the description and item in your link. I was pointing out that the link for the T-PRO Electrical Tester had incorrect information in the link, though you can select the T-pro to buy.