First oscilloscope - DS2072 or DS1074?

[creyc]

Hopefully this question isn't too subjective..

First off I'm an electronics hobbyist/hacker rather than a professional.  My budget reflects this as well, although I'll spend a little more to get something I won't need to replace down the road.  I do a lot of reverse engineering, consumer electronic repairs, and lately microcontroller based projects.  I've used a tiny "DSO Nano" pocket scope for a few years, and while it's no doubt convenient, it's quite a pain to use for anything serious.  It's also single channel, which has been annyoing.  I'm long overdue for an upgrade.

I was originally enticed by the well renowned Rigol DS1052E, and its budget friendly price.  While it looks like a good first-scope, I'm concerned with the screen size and resolution, and the scope has been around for quite a few years at this point.  Watching Dave's comparison of the DS1052E and the DS2072 really left me thinking the DS2000 series is the way to go for a scope I'm not likely to outgrow for many many years.  At $840 the DS2072 would take a little more saving up for however.

Which brings my attention to the DS1074Z ($585).  While it lacks some of the higher end features, it is also considerably cheaper, and offers 4-channels instead of 2.  I don't anticipate on needing these extra 2 channels now, so that doesn't affect my decision a whole lot.  Would this 1074Z make a good hobbyist scope, or would I be better off saving up for the extra features of the 2000-series?

If they offered a "DS1072Z" product with the larger screen and and even cheaper 2-channel price I would likely just buy that and save my money for other tools.  Are there any other 'scopes I should look at that might be a middle ground between a 1052E and the 2072?  Thanks.

[grego]

Already discussed at length recently:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/2-vs-4-channel-oscilloscope-poll-multiple-choice-plus-fill-in-the-blank/

Search is your friend.

[creyc]

Thanks, I read through that thread and it's pretty informative on the broader question of 2 vs 4 channel.  I've therefore revised my thread to make my question more specific.

I guess this thread asks a similar question, so maybe my post is useless..
RIGOL DS2000 or the new RIGOL DS1000z

[Electro Fan]

You will get lots of opinions here (including older Rigols, Owons, Hanteks, used Teks, etc, etc.) but from studying the landscape I think the best choices are a 2072 or one of the new 1000Z series models - I am confident either route would be great, it's just a matter of narrowing down to the specific model among the few finalists in the Rigol line.  This is from a potential buyer rather than an owner so others with more experience will have more valuable info for you.  What we kind of need (which should start showing up pretty soon) is more hands-on user feedback from users with 1000Z experience and ideally some feeback from people who have operated both the 1000Z and the 2000 series.  It's kind of a spec thing but also a User Interface expereince thing (different control layouts, different screens, etc.).  I'm pretty sure it's splitting modest differences; there are probably more similarities than differences between the the 1000Z and 2000 series (although the 2 channel vs 4 channel question is a key consideration and the potential for the integrated arb/function gen is interesting too) but part of the fun of this process is using the gear and part of it is studying/shopping/anticipating on the frontend.  Enjoy the process.

[madshaman]

Two cents on channels: the more, the better

Being able to visualise multiple circuit point simultaneously is a huge debugging advantage imho.

Only worth one cent: how much bandwidth do you see yourself needing in the far future?  What if you get into radio or debug a high frequency data bus?

Worth something: do you need features like true analog-like persistence or high sensitivity?

If you don't have a very good idea about all this, I highly recommend the cheapest scope you can get that isn't garbage.

I've recommended elsewhere a used tds-210 of tds-220 (have a 220 and really like it).

Or if you want to go new, although I don't own their gear myself, many people swear by Rigol, and from what I've seen, the best bang for the buck for a new scope.

[Hydrawerk]

Buy DS2000 because it is produced for one year. It is not a very new product, so it should be quite bugless. Never buy test equpiment from the beginning of production. There might be some HW bugs or so...
On the other hand, you must know if you need a four channel scope.

[creyc]

Two cents on channels: the more, the better

Being able to visualise multiple circuit point simultaneously is a huge debugging advantage imho.

Only worth one cent: how much bandwidth do you see yourself needing in the far future?  What if you get into radio or debug a high frequency data bus?

Worth something: do you need features like true analog-like persistence or high sensitivity?

If you don't have a very good idea about all this, I highly recommend the cheapest scope you can get that isn't garbage.

I've recommended elsewhere a used tds-210 of tds-220 (have a 220 and really like it).

Or if you want to go new, although I don't own their gear myself, many people swear by Rigol, and from what I've seen, the best bang for the buck for a new scope.

Being an amateur hardware hacker it's hard to predict exactly what I'll be working with tomorrow, or 5 years from now.  Right now I'm working with a lot of audio equipment, some serial, SPI, I2C, 1-wire working with sensors, PICs and Arduinos.  And probing PWM signals varying from SMPS's to automotive signals.  No real radio or high speed data, at least not yet. 

It's hard to be completely future-proof (well, $$$$$ helps) so I'm fine with something fairly general-purpose if it's decent quality.  Also, my budget pretty much dictates that I'm looking at scopes 100MHz and under, unless I go used/analog and frankly I don't have anyplace to put a big CRT scope on my bench.  (really short on depth mostly so DSO's are great)

I poured over the PDFs of the 1074 and 2072 side by side, page for page yesterday, and I really think the 1074 is going to do everything I could ask for, and the price is much more manageable.    I'm a tad concerned jumping on a new product but that's one price to pay for wanting the latest features at a low price.  Rigol seems to be pretty reputable, too.

Of course..for a little more than $200 extra I can get the advanced built in signal generator and save bench space..though I'm back in the 2072 price range. 

[madshaman]

I think some have gotten confused when I've mentioned the tds-220 (maybe assuming they are analog or like the older Tek DSOs (2440 and then like)

Just so you know, it is *very* small and lightweight (LCD, not CRT).  I will take a picture of mine when I get home.

The 220 is 100Mhz 2-channel and the 210 is the same at 60Mhz iirc.  There's also the 224, but I've actually never seen one in person; it's four channel.

They both offer 1Gsps sampling rate, which is ample for 100Mhz.

It's a dso so it isn't analog, it makes no discernible noise and I think is a great compromise vs the price of a new Rigol.

There may be other scopes in this niche, but these are the ones I know of which should cost the least used.

For the stuff you're talking about, you might need more than 60Mhz bandwidth sooner than you think.  Even the cheapest uCs can easily reach 40Mhz.

Also, even when audio frequencies, you can have circuit components which are oscillating in the 100s of Mhz, or simply have signal noise in this range; it's nice to be able to actually see it.

It's totally my opinion, but I wouldn't sink $1000s into a new scope until you have a better idea in which direction your interests evolve.

Every penny saved on your lab gear now lets you buy that special "xxx" when you really do want it.

[creyc]

I think some have gotten confused when I've mentioned the tds-220 (maybe assuming they are analog or like the older Tek DSOs (2440 and then like)

Just so you know, it is *very* small and lightweight (LCD, not CRT).  I will take a picture of mine when I get home.

The 220 is 100Mhz 2-channel and the 210 is the same at 60Mhz iirc.  There's also the 224, but I've actually never seen one in person; it's four channel.

They both offer 1Gsps sampling rate, which is ample for 100Mhz.

It's a dso so it isn't analog, it makes no discernible noise and I think is a great compromise vs the price of a new Rigol.

There may be other scopes in this niche, but these are the ones I know of which should cost the least used.

For the stuff you're talking about, you might need more than 60Mhz bandwidth sooner than you think.  Even the cheapest uCs can easily reach 40Mhz.

Also, even when audio frequencies, you can have circuit components which are oscillating in the 100s of Mhz, or simply have signal noise in this range; it's nice to be able to actually see it.

It's totally my opinion, but I wouldn't sink $1000s into a new scope until you have a better idea in which direction your interests evolve.

Every penny saved on your lab gear now lets you buy that special "xxx" when you really do want it.

Thanks, I appreciate the advice.  I'm certainly hoping to not make a mistake I'll regret a couple years down the line if/when I need another, pricey upgrade to continue playing in this hobby.

Actually I looked up the TDS 210/220 and it's one of the first DSO's I've played with, a few years back.  I recall it doing a pretty good job, too, although I don't recall the screen being too special.  My other hesitation is that they seem to go for $300-400 used on eBay, which is in the realm of a new Rigol 1052E or 1102E, and I think they're fairly similar spec wise?

[madshaman]

I will admit that a bottom rung new rigol might be superior if you pay $300-400 for a tds-220.  If you're patient tho, you should be able to nab one for < $200 USD.

I also have a THS730A which is 200Mhz and quite awesome, but for a cheap portable scope, I find I'm using the TDS-220 much more often.

Here's the promised pictures for size reference for others:

[Electro Fan]

I will admit that a bottom rung new rigol might be superior if you pay $300-400 for a tds-220.  If you're patient tho, you should be able to nab one for < $200 USD.

I also have a THS730A which is 200Mhz and quite awesome, but for a cheap portable scope, I find I'm using the TDS-220 much more often.

Here's the promised pictures for size reference for others:

In looking at the TDS-220s that have sold over the last couple months on eBay it looks like if you want one sold by a seller in the U.S. with all the parts on it and with an ad that says more than very little or outright says take your chances it looks like the price is more likely to be in the $300 to $400 range (especially if you factor in shipping.)  There seem to be a fair number sold by sellers outside the U.S. (which might make it attractive to buyers from around the world), and the fact that the price can easily be $300, $400 or more and the fact that they actually sell for these prices indicate it is likely to be a good scope.  But I think it's pushing up against the price of a brand new 1000Z.  If the 1000Z survives Dave's review and the feedback of other early users there could be small landrush for the 1000Z .  At $549.90 for a new Rigol DS1074Z including shipping in the U.S. tequipment.net is going to sell more than a few.  Rigol is in the cat bird's seat.  If the DS1000Z does well Agilent isn't anywhere to be seen in this price range; if for some reason the 1000Z doesn't pass early adopter muster the DS2072 will move further toward legendary status and Agilent still has little to counter.

[madshaman]

It depends on the OPs needs, they may decide later they want a $900 scope but now only have $700.

I did a search, at the time this auction was only at $250.  http://bit.ly/15NONbV

I also see some ludicrous prices, but one's nit obliged to pay them.

I find with eBay, if you're patient, you can usually find what you want for what it's worrh.

[creyc]

Well I received my Rigol DS1074-S today, and it is quite an awesome little piece of equipment.  Because I have next to no room for a full bench of gear I went with the built in signal generator.

[Ghydda]

Congrats on a fine investment into your tiny lab
I know all too well the feeling of a making a tiny budget fit onto a tiny bench mine is not much bigger.

I went with the DS2072 nearly a year ago, and if the 1000Z series was available at the time I would likely have picked it over the 2000 series.
Alas, I'm extremely pleased with my 2000-series scope and it was a massive upgrade over my Fluke Philips PM95 ScopeMeter, which I (for sentimental reasons) simply can't part with