Choosing between entry-level 12-bit DSOs

[tautech]

Mike, you of anyone will know how large orders of expensive IC's can dramatically reduce BOM costs.

It's all about quantity......

Exactly, but even so, selling a DSO of this calibre and maturity at this price point is like getting a Porsche for the price of a Kia

Yup.

I was lucky enough to get a SDS814X HD in early Feb and first impressions were WOW, what a step up from the previous X-E and adopting the UI and a large amount of the feature set of the more upmarket models it was obvious that these would be a big hit.....especially at their comparatively low cost. 

Privileged also to see the beta firmwares under development and all those good things it will bring to us soon.

There's another point I've noticed since very recently getting these in stock that the SN# format has changed a little to now have a last 5 digit numeric system for each production year.
I wonder how high that number has reached and we're not halfway through the year......

[bdunham7]

Privileged also to see the beta firmwares under development and all those good things it will bring to us soon.

Are they going to add the data logger and WiFi anytime soon?  I was a bit surprised to not see those (unless I missed them in the manual) as they clearly already have figured out how to do it in the SDS1104X-E.

[tautech]

Privileged also to see the beta firmwares under development and all those good things it will bring to us soon.

Are they going to add the data logger and WiFi anytime soon?  I was a bit surprised to not see those (unless I missed them in the manual) as they clearly already have figured out how to do it in the SDS1104X-E.

Not immediately it seems however it is on their radar.....a few of us have insisted it is.

I would imagine with the existing SDS800X HD NTP capability, Logging could be enabled and it follows WiFi should be too.
Or just maybe feature sets will not made to overlap to maintain X-E sales. 
 

[shapirus]

What's the problem with WiFi in the Siglent, exactly? It can operate as a USB host, right? Then, since it's Linux-based, it should be possible to build a kernel module for any particular WiFi chipset. What then? Lack of userspace software?

Or let's put it this way: has anyone ever attempted modding or at least looking into the scope's operating system?

[tautech]

What's the problem with WiFi in the Siglent, exactly? It can operate as a USB host, right? Then, since it's Linux-based, it should be possible to build a kernel module for any particular WiFi chipset. What then? Lack of userspace software?

Or let's put it this way: has anyone ever attempted modding or at least looking into the scope's operating system?

WiFi is only currently supported in the 4ch X-E models using the TP Link TL-WN725N USB dongle which with a good WiFi access point provides many meters of connectivity plus NTP time and negates the need for a wired LAN connection.

The TL-WN725N dongle was supported with its specific driver within the X-E OS on day one release.
The 2ch SDS2000X-E range has this WiFi support also.

However the newer SDS800X HD models use a totally different OS that's based on the more upmarket models so incorporating into the new OS will be somewhat more of a challenge....which is why we have pleaded with Siglent to enable it.

[bdunham7]

However the newer SDS800X HD models use a totally different OS that's based on the more upmarket models so incorporating into the new OS will be somewhat more of a challenge....which is why we have pleaded with Siglent to enable it.

They've yet to do so on the SDS2000X+ models... 

[Electro Fan]

Does anyone have a link to something that specifies what OS is used by model for the current and previous generation(s) of Siglent scopes?

[Antonio90]

What if someone wanted to go one better than the DHO800/900 or SDS800X? What would be the best choice for the next step up?

The feature set of the 800X-HD is virtually identical to the 1000X-HD. The latter is just much nicer AFAIK. Better ADCs, screen, encoders and build quality. The 50R input path is integrated and it has more USB ports.

It would be nice if you explain what facts this claim of better ADC's is based on.

Since quite often beliefs start to spread as truths and take on a life of their own, it would be good to mention what the claim is based on, unless it, or the information referring to it, appears in a public datasheet.

Hello Rf-loop,
I don't know. I thought the 800X-HD had a lower-end ADC and it was shown on a teardown. I cannot find it, and I might have wrongly inferred it. I was "sure" it was the ADC12D500, and the 1000X-HD had the ADC12D1000, like the 2000X-HD.
In any case, the claim is baseless.
¿Could you confirm the 800X-HD also has two ADC12D1000?
I will edit my post removing the claim in any case.

Following up on this, in case anyone cares, Performa01 stated in a previous post that the 800X-HD's ADC is capable of 4x1GS/s. That excludes the ADC12D500/800 (1/1.6 GS/s), and the next step up is the ADC12D1000.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/choosing-between-entry-level-12-bit-dsos/msg5476771/#msg5476771

[tautech]

Following up on this, in case anyone cares, Performa01 stated in a previous post that the 800X-HD is capable of 4x1GS/s. That excludes the ADC12D500/800 (1/1.6 GS/s), and the next step up is the ADC12D1000.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/choosing-between-entry-level-12-bit-dsos/msg5476771/#msg5476771

Err No !

SDS800X HD ADC's are not configured in the same manner as 2000X+ or HD DSO's.
Just 500 MSa/s are available with 3 or 4 channels active. With just 2 channels active, certainly 1 GSa/s is available but in the post you linked 2 Maths channels are also active however they do not affect the acquisition system as additional active channels do.

From the datasheet:
Sample rate
(Max.)
One channel mode: 2 GSa/s,
Two channel mode: 1 GSa/s,
Four channel mode: 500 MSa/s

[Antonio90]

Following up on this, in case anyone cares, Performa01 stated in a previous post that the 800X-HD is capable of 4x1GS/s. That excludes the ADC12D500/800 (1/1.6 GS/s), and the next step up is the ADC12D1000.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/choosing-between-entry-level-12-bit-dsos/msg5476771/#msg5476771

Err No !

SDS800X HD ADC's are not configured in the same manner as 2000X+ or HD DSO's.
Just 500 MSa/s are available with 3 or 4 channels active. With just 2 channels active, certainly 1 GSa/s is available but in the post you linked 2 Maths channels are also active however they do not affect the acquisition system as additional active channels do.

From the datasheet:
Sample rate
(Max.)
One channel mode: 2 GSa/s,
Two channel mode: 1 GSa/s,
Four channel mode: 500 MSa/s

Yeah, typo. The ADC present on the 800X-HD is capable of 4x1GS/s. Even though the acquisition is limited to 2GS/s max, the extra sampling rate is not wasted, so somehow still used to avoid aliasing, and reducing tradeoffs of AA filters.

The relevant part of the linked post is the second to last paragraph, which all but settles the matter about the ADC used.

[Mechatrommer]

i wonder why sds800x is not capable 500MSps CH1,CH2 and 1GSps CH3 (CH4 off) since it has 2x 1GSps ADCs, correct?

[Antonio90]

i wonder why sds800x is not capable 500MSps CH1,CH2 and 1GSps CH3 (CH4 off) since it has 2x 1GSps ADCs, correct?

It could be a bus limitation? That would amount to 3GS/s throughput from the ADCs

[ebourg]

Privileged also to see the beta firmwares under development and all those good things it will bring to us soon.

Do you know if they plan to enable text anti-aliasing?

[nctnico]

Privileged also to see the beta firmwares under development and all those good things it will bring to us soon.

Do you know if they plan to enable text anti-aliasing?

Hopefully never as this would make the screen unreadable for people with astigmatism. I can't use Windows 10 and later because of this.

[ebastler]

Do you know if they plan to enable text anti-aliasing?

Hopefully never as this would make the screen unreadable for people with astigmatism. I can't use Windows 10 and later because of this.

The SDS800X HD already uses anti-aliasig when you enable the larger fonts. Several of the larger SDS scopes (starting with 10" screens) seem to use anti-aliased fonts as well, even with the regular font size.

First time I see the claim that anti-aliased fonts clash with astigmatism. I have astigmatism as well and don't experienca any issues with anti-aliased fonts on any platform. If it's a widespread problem in your opinion, would you have a reference?

[nctnico]

Do you know if they plan to enable text anti-aliasing?

Hopefully never as this would make the screen unreadable for people with astigmatism. I can't use Windows 10 and later because of this.

The SDS800X HD already uses anti-aliasig when you enable the larger fonts. Several of the larger SDS scopes (starting with 10" screens) seem to use anti-aliased fonts as well, even with the regular font size.

First time I see the claim that anti-aliased fonts clash with astigmatism. I have astigmatism as well and don't experienca any issues with anti-aliased fonts on any platform. If it's a widespread problem in your opinion, would you have a reference?

Just Google for disabling anti-aliasing on Windows. You'll find quite a few discussions and attempts to disable anti-aliasing. If you have astigmatism, then focussing on anti-aliased text causes more strain on your eyes & brain. With astigmatism, you received a blurry image which you brain corrects to a sharp image. But if the image is blurred to begin with, then this process needs more effort or doesn't work at all. On a very high resolution display this is less of a problem but on typical full-HD monitors, it is.

[2N3055]

I agree with Nico, on small fonts, they are clearer if anti aliasing is used. On large fonts it makes no difference.

[nctnico]

I agree with Nico, on small fonts, they are clearer if anti aliasing is used. On large fonts it makes no difference.

That is not what I wrote... Unless a high-resolution display is used, anti-aliasing makes things worse instead of better for many people.

[2N3055]

I agree with Nico, on small fonts, they are clearer if anti aliasing is used. On large fonts it makes no difference.

That is not what I wrote... Unless a high-resolution display is used, anti-aliasing makes things worse instead of better for many people.

Don't be nitpick. I reduced the equation.
Super high density display is NOT used.
So small font's - better with no anti aliasing.

[ebastler]

I do agree that a minimum resolution (pixels per character) is required to make anti-aliased fonts work really well.

Nevertheless, when I look at screenshots from the SDS2000X plus which people have posted here, they show anti-aliased fonts. Using the same 1024*600 resolution and apparently the same font size as the 800X HD, just a larger display diagonal.

I do find various discussions on the net where people would like to switch off anti-aliasing. I have not found a single one where people connect that wish to astigmatism though. That claimed connection is what I doubt. I think it's just a matter of personal habit and preference whether one prefers "smooth anti-aliased" or "crisp pixels".

[shapirus]

Here's an example of a properly implemented AA configuration UI. Whenever one wants to implement font AA, it should be at least this configurable. It's a hint for the scope UI devs, if they are reading this.

[2N3055]

I think it's just a matter of personal habit and preference whether one prefers "smooth anti-aliased" or "crisp pixels".

You might say that my eyes provide "natural" anti aliasing...

I am myopic, and it is not a preference. As fonts go smaller in size, I reach the point where I can clearly read non anti aliased fonts, and those that are anti aliased I have problem.

Seriously, that is a known problem. When image is blurry, eye is confused and think it did not focus properly. So it is "hunting" for focus.
Similar to when camera hunts for focus.

[hfleming]

Do you know if they plan to enable text anti-aliasing?

Hopefully never as this would make the screen unreadable for people with astigmatism. I can't use Windows 10 and later because of this.

The SDS800X HD already uses anti-aliasig when you enable the larger fonts. Several of the larger SDS scopes (starting with 10" screens) seem to use anti-aliased fonts as well, even with the regular font size.

First time I see the claim that anti-aliased fonts clash with astigmatism. I have astigmatism as well and don't experienca any issues with anti-aliased fonts on any platform. If it's a widespread problem in your opinion, would you have a reference?

I also have astigmatism+diplodia, what is even worse, it is variable, depending on light, my physical condition, etc, so I can’t get corrective optics for it. On a good day I can read fine with just el-cheapo reading glasses, and on a bad day, I just have to give up. Even when I have a good day and I can read fine, the moment ant-aliasing comes into the picture, my eyes just drift out of focus. The same applies to anything low in contrast.

[nctnico]

<offtopic rant mode on>
Back in the old days I spend quite some effort and money to get really high quality CRT monitors which had a super sharp image. The likes of 21" Eizo models with active deflection to get the image sharp right into the corners and LG Flatron have been on my desk. And ofcourse high quality VGA cables with seperate BNCs for each color. Blessed was the day I got a TFT monitor. Such a nice sharp picture. But then UI graphics designers came in and decided text should be unsharp again like on the worst CRT monitors. FFS! 

[Antonio90]

I'm younger I guess, and only had contact with crappy CRT monitors (and computers) back then. I also have had crappy TFT displays.

The best money invested for my masters and first job was a laptop with a high quality HiDPI display. Nowadays I skimp on anything but a good monitor and good, ergonomic, keyboard/mouse.
Even on Windows 11, a good QHD or UHD flicker-free monitor upscaled is the best thing for long hours working in front of a screen.
Get a high resolution screen, not too big, and upscale everything to 150-200%, configure ClearType properly, and I think you'll be set.