Author Topic: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes  (Read 46788 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Keysight DanielBogdanoff

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Country: us
  • ALL THE SCOPES!
    • Keysight Scopes YouTube channel
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2016, 06:07:06 pm »
@Daniel: the memory is only a quarter (or less) of 4Mpts with 4 channels enabled and in normal run mode on the MSOX4000 series. See pages 220 and 324 of the user manual.

You're right, it cuts my above statements in half.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13748
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2016, 06:30:12 pm »
Isn't there a problem with this approach that when you hit Stop, you won't know what memory depth you will get?

Ok, so the ASIC on the InfiniiVision X-Series uses what we affectionately call "ping pong" memory. With 4M of total space, it uses alternating halves (2M) during normal Run operation. When you hit "Stop" the scope immediately stops capturing and displays the latest 2M capture (or whatever memory applies to the screen time/div settings). At fast time/div settings there's still 2M of data, but the screen may show less info than that. The scope only processes the data that's on the screen, but does this even when it's not actively acquiring data. When you're stopped and then zoom out, if there's more data there it will re-plot the whole 2M signal capture.

If you hit "Single" you get the full 4M of memory, but it will take a new capture instead of keeping the current 2M one.

This might be too basic for you guys, but I did a brief video on "Run/Stop vs Single" that discusses the memory buffer on our YouTube channel:
On both the MSOX and older MSO scopes I've always thought it would be useful to be able to override the double-buffering to get maximum memory in "normal" trigger mode, instead of having to keep pressing <SINGLE>
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2601
  • Country: 00
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2016, 06:58:02 pm »
DSOX2000 scopes were intruduced in early 2011. Is there a next model coming next year or so?
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline kcbrown

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 880
  • Country: us
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2016, 08:07:31 pm »
Because you don't need so much samples to shows on the screen (1024 samples is enough) this memory can be included in the ASIC and can operate independantly of the main memory. Surely circular buffering can be used to fullfill prefill requirements.

(Naturally what follows is just my thinking on this.  I'm no expert in any of this by any means)

It's important to not confuse screen memory and sample memory.

What you see on the screen is a representation of the samples.  It's the result of processing the samples that exist within the time window represented by the screen boundaries (and whatever samples exist beyond the boundaries that are necessary to give an accurate screen representation).

Because the screen's only purpose is to display something to a human, and humans are relatively slow, the system doesn't have to keep the screen updated with the absolute latest capture.   Update it at 30 times per second and the viewer won't perceive it to be lagging in any way.   That means the triggering mechanism would have to succeed in detecting a trigger event at least once every 1/30th of a second for the display to be perceived as accurate (when trigger events happen more often than that, of course.  When they're less frequent than every 1/30th of a second, then a seemingly laggy display would actually be an accurate reflection of what's happening).  However, for seeing glitches via persistence, obviously the trigger detection mechanism would have to fire with maximum rapidity, and the display processing would have to be very fast as well in order to maximize the probability that a glitch is made visible.

It's because of the glitch detection and persistence implementation that you really want a fast display processing mechanism and fast trigger detection, and it's why you need a memory subsystem that can support simultaneous maximum-speed reads and writes (writes from the sampling mechanism, and reads from the trigger and display processing mechanisms).  The display mechanism would simply follow the pointer list generated by the triggering mechanism and do burst reads of the sections of memory the pointer list entries imply would need to be read (the size of each section would be determined by the sample rate and the visible window size). 

I imagine that getting the memory and bus architectures right for this is crucial.  It has to minimize the possibility of bus contention in the face of simultaneous maximum-speed read and write operations (and when there is contention for the bus, obviously the sampling mechanism is what has to win). 

I imagine the guys who design oscilloscopes must have a lot of fun doing it, because of all the interesting problems that have to be solved.   :)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 08:52:11 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2016, 08:33:25 pm »
@Daniel: the memory is only a quarter (or less) of 4Mpts with 4 channels enabled and in normal run mode on the MSOX4000 series. See pages 220 and 324 of the user manual.

You're right, it cuts my above statements in half.

And there's even less memory available when logic channels are enabled, or even something basic like Reference waveforms, which unlike on many other scopes, reduce the amount of available sample memory even more and could well mean you end up with a few hundred kpts per channel.

Not exactly a lot for a scope in the price class of the DSOX3000 Series.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26907
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2016, 08:34:40 pm »
I imagine the guys who design oscilloscopes must have a lot of fun doing it, because of all the interesting problems that have to be solved.   :)
It is fun indeed  ;)
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Keysight DanielBogdanoff

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Country: us
  • ALL THE SCOPES!
    • Keysight Scopes YouTube channel
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2016, 08:43:56 pm »
I imagine the guys who design oscilloscopes must have a lot of fun doing it, because of all the interesting problems that have to be solved.   :)

It's always a party! Part of why we love our ASICs so much is that it helps us streamline a lot of the plotting/data analysis challenges. It has it's downsides, of course (e.g. no memory controller built into MegaZoom so we only have 4M), but from a performance standpoint it's been great.

And there's even less when logic channels are enabled, or even something basic like Reference waveforms, which unlike many other scopes reduces the amount of available sample memory even more and could well mean you end up with a few hundred kpts per channel.

Yeah, it's definitely not ideal, but for most users it does the job. It's amazing how few people change their Tek scopes out of the default 10 kpts depth. I'm not trying to hide our memory depth or anything but a lot of people don't necessarily need it.

Obligatorily, I must mention segmented memory as a thing. You know, the usual. :)
 

Offline kcbrown

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 880
  • Country: us
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2016, 09:16:25 pm »
It's always a party! Part of why we love our ASICs so much is that it helps us streamline a lot of the plotting/data analysis challenges. It has it's downsides, of course (e.g. no memory controller built into MegaZoom so we only have 4M), but from a performance standpoint it's been great.

The 4M of memory is located on the ASICs directly, right?

I can hardly imagine that a memory controller would eat so much ASIC space that you had to put the memory directly into the ASICs instead for that reason, so what was the reason for choosing to put the memory directly onto the ASICs?  Speed?  Reduced latency?

I wouldn't be surprised if the performance of external memory back when the ASICs were designed simply wasn't enough to meet the performance requirements.  Modern computer designs seem to use multiple levels of cache in order to achieve decent throughput, but the nature of the demands on an oscilloscope's memory is such that I don't know that such an architecture would be suitable (indeed, I rather suspect it's not).

It's been quite some time since I've looked at how computers are architected at that level, so something may have changed.   In any case, densities are so high these days that I'm surprised that a substantial amount of additional memory wasn't added to the ASICs for the 3000T series, at least.   Are you guys using an older fab process or something (that would be entirely understandable.  Going to a new fab process is apparently quite expensive)?

« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 09:19:45 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4532
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2016, 09:27:08 pm »
And there's even less memory available when logic channels are enabled, or even something basic like Reference waveforms, which unlike on many other scopes, reduce the amount of available sample memory even more and could well mean you end up with a few hundred kpts per channel.
Except we tested that and including reference traces didn't reduce the memory depth. Would you like to bring some more verifiably wrong statements to the thread?
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26907
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2016, 09:29:28 pm »
And there's even less memory available when logic channels are enabled, or even something basic like Reference waveforms, which unlike on many other scopes, reduce the amount of available sample memory even more and could well mean you end up with a few hundred kpts per channel.
Except we tested that and including reference traces didn't reduce the memory depth. Would you like to bring some more verifiably wrong statements to the thread?
:palm: See pages 220 and 324 of the  MSOX4000 user manual (for example).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13748
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2016, 09:32:51 pm »
@Daniel: the memory is only a quarter (or less) of 4Mpts with 4 channels enabled and in normal run mode on the MSOX4000 series. See pages 220 and 324 of the user manual.

You're right, it cuts my above statements in half.

And there's even less memory available when logic channels are enabled, or even something basic like Reference waveforms, which unlike on many other scopes, reduce the amount of available sample memory even more and could well mean you end up with a few hundred kpts per channel.

Not exactly a lot for a scope in the price class of the DSOX3000 Series.
Not to mention peak detect mode ( 4x reduction I think)
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4532
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2016, 09:38:33 pm »
And there's even less memory available when logic channels are enabled, or even something basic like Reference waveforms, which unlike on many other scopes, reduce the amount of available sample memory even more and could well mean you end up with a few hundred kpts per channel.
Except we tested that and including reference traces didn't reduce the memory depth. Would you like to bring some more verifiably wrong statements to the thread?
:palm: See pages 220 and 324 of the  MSOX4000 user manual (for example).
You might have to reference the actual document as the currently served 4000 X users guide doesn't have anything relevant on those pages, and does not state that the memory will be reduced when displaying reference waveforms, it mentions channel bonding and realtime/single capture, and nothing about digital channels or acquisition modes (which are known to reduce memory depth).
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4532
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2016, 09:44:05 pm »
It's always a party! Part of why we love our ASICs so much is that it helps us streamline a lot of the plotting/data analysis challenges. It has it's downsides, of course (e.g. no memory controller built into MegaZoom so we only have 4M), but from a performance standpoint it's been great.

The 4M of memory is located on the ASICs directly, right?

I can hardly imagine that a memory controller would eat so much ASIC space that you had to put the memory directly into the ASICs instead for that reason, so what was the reason for choosing to put the memory directly onto the ASICs?  Speed?  Reduced latency?

I wouldn't be surprised if the performance of external memory back when the ASICs were designed simply wasn't enough to meet the performance requirements.  Modern computer designs seem to use multiple levels of cache in order to achieve decent throughput, but the nature of the demands on an oscilloscope's memory is such that I don't know that such an architecture would be suitable (indeed, I rather suspect it's not).

It's been quite some time since I've looked at how computers are architected at that level, so something may have changed.   In any case, densities are so high these days that I'm surprised that a substantial amount of additional memory wasn't added to the ASICs for the 3000T series, at least.   Are you guys using an older fab process or something (that would be entirely understandable.  Going to a new fab process is apparently quite expensive)?
Latency is key to the problem of building a histogram (here rendering waveforms with intensity grading). From back of the envelope calculations you can see why this all adds up quickly, we can take your example below and add some numbers to it.

Isn't there a problem with this approach that when you hit Stop, you won't know what memory depth you will get? If the first trigger has only just occurred, then there may only be just enough samples to see what is already on the screen, so while you can zoom, you can't pan outside the screen window. Only if there have been enough triggers to completely fill the sample memory will you get the full depth. This could be very confusing to the user. It seems better to maintain the one trigger = one memory buffer rule for consistency.

That won't be a problem with the circular buffer approach.  That's because with the circular buffer, once enough initial time has passed to fill the entire buffer with samples, the buffer is always full, which means you can always scroll backwards, at the very least, to see what has happened before, for roughly however much time it took to fill the buffer.  The real question is how much additional sampling the scope should do if it is set up to stop on a trigger and it encounters the triggering condition.  For that, it seems logical that it will depend on the amount of memory that has already been filled and the amount of time it would take to fill the remainder.  If the amount of memory that has been filled is small, then there's little point in actually stopping until the remainder is filled, as long as doing so doesn't take too long (that cutoff time is something that could be defined by the user).




Quote
If you can search the memory for trigger events after stopping the acquisition, it's difficult to see what practical advantages this approach brings - beyond increasing the data sheet waveforms/sec number, for bragging rights, of course!  ;)

The main advantage is that you're guaranteed to have the maximum possible amount of history at your disposal, while also being able to run the triggering system at its maximum speed.  It makes the speed of the triggering system independent of the memory depth, too.  And it makes it possible to use higher sampling rates with longer timebases.

The approach is so blindingly obvious to me that I must be missing something crucial here, as I would have expected scope manufacturers to already be implementing it if it didn't have some sort of showstopper property that I'm missing.  But it does sound like Keysight does something similar.  Their solution does take care of the case where trigger events are rare, and could be integrated into the single circular buffer approach, by splitting the memory into two pieces in the event you don't see another trigger event after half the buffer fill time since the previous trigger event.
A hypothetical scope with:
8bit 10GS/s 2GHz bandwidth
1,000,000 samples memory
100us capture
screen with 1000px display for the waveform

"ideal" 10,000 wfms/s 1 trigger+display per 100us (10,000 wfms/s)

acquisition memory:
wr bandwidth 10GB/s
rd bandwidth 10GB/s
filter and pipe to display histogram:
rd bandwidth 0.01GB/s
wr bandwidth 0.01GB/s

2GHz trigger = 200,000 triggers+display per 100us (2,000,000,000 wfms/s)

acquisition memory:
wr bandwidth 10GB/s
rd bandwidth 2,000,000GB/s
filter and pipe to display histogram:
rd bandwidth 2000GB/s
wr bandwidth 2000GB/s

Current histogram memory for 1,000,000 wfms/s peak into approximately 500px window as in the 3000 X discussed in this thread:
rd and wr bandwidth of 0.5GB/s
Overhead for clearing etc, double for zoom window, per channel etc. This would use 16, Probably 32 or more parallel 1MB histogram rams at x00MHz each. The histogram memory needs to be very low latency as the match pipeline grows in resources with latency squared, so to get 3 orders of magnitude increase in performance you're hunting for some magical technology.
 

Offline Keysight DanielBogdanoff

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Country: us
  • ALL THE SCOPES!
    • Keysight Scopes YouTube channel
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2016, 09:46:42 pm »
The 4M of memory is located on the ASICs directly, right?

I can hardly imagine that a memory controller would eat so much ASIC space that you had to put the memory directly into the ASICs instead for that reason, so what was the reason for choosing to put the memory directly onto the ASICs?  Speed?  Reduced latency?

Yes, the memory is right on the ASIC to improve the speed (read: fast waveform update rate). I don't remember what nm architecture we used for this one, but the ASIC team is always using the latest tech and fabs. If we could go back in time and do it over again we'd definitely add more memory into the ASIC and potentially a DDR memory controller. When developing a chip trade offs are always made for one reason or another.

Also, the memory takes up a non-trivial amount of chip real estate. More memory means larger chips. As a rule, larger chips mean lower yield and increased overall cost.
 

Offline Faith

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 154
  • Country: sg
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2016, 04:24:59 am »
I think from an InfiniiVision brochure I've read loooong ago, the chip used in MSOX3kXT/4kX are made with 65nm technology with on die DRAM (why the hell not using external DRAM since you've already used DRAM and already took the complexity a whole level higher compared to SRAM)?

Wow 65nm? That's been around for a good decade already if I remember correctly. Kinda puts the age of the ASIC into perspective >,<"...

I'm guessing they went with on-die memory to reduce latency as much as possible. Possibly similar reasons to why CPU's always possess a decent amount of on-board cache memory as well.

But I would definitely love to know as well if Keysight has anything new coming up in the near future.

I've always maintained however that new equipment doesn't suddenly make old equipment useless, hence why I am still open to buying the 3000T or 4000A despite their age.

From a budgeting and support perspective however it does make me feel better if I know that my product will be supported for another 5-10 years.

I'm loving the discussion that's been going on in this thread however as there are definitely many valid points being made.

For now however I will likely just wait and see what happens first. Me smacking my head on the table when my borrowed scope needs to go back, or Keysight launching something with an updated ASIC.

In the interim however I will get in touch with Teledyne LeCroy and also Rohde & Schwarz (the RTE looks super interesting but seems to lack reviews online) to demo their units.
<3 ~Faith~
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2016, 05:17:15 am »
Yeah, it's definitely not ideal, but for most users it does the job.

No-one doubts that. And aside from the tiny memory, the DSOX are great general purpose scopes.

But at the end of the day the entry-level is a competitive market, and the thing is that there are now other scopes which make similar great general purpose scopes but offer more memory and more functionality for a lower price.

It's pretty much a buyer's market.

Quote
It's amazing how few people change their Tek scopes out of the default 10 kpts depth.

True, but that is probably because even with short memory they are generally slow as wading through molasses so I guess these people are just trying to minimize their pain (I got a new Tek MDO3054 recently, it's so slow it's not even funny) ;)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 05:20:18 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #91 on: August 23, 2016, 05:38:51 am »
In the interim however I will get in touch with Teledyne LeCroy and also Rohde & Schwarz (the RTE looks super interesting but seems to lack reviews online) to demo their units.

The RTE is certainly interesting but at a starting price of around $6500 for the 2ch 200MHz variant it is a lot more expensive than any of the scopes discussed here (you can almost get two 2ch 200MHz WaveSurfer 3000 for that money). Also, if you're really interested in this scope make sure you trial it as the UI is pretty quirky.

R&S' competitor to the discussed scopes would be the RTM2000 which still starts at $5k (RTM2022 2ch 200MHz). I had the predecessor RTM1054 (500MHz 4Ch) which was pretty much the same aside from the MSO option and slightly lower sample memory. It was a very nice scope and had a few interesting features, and it was worth the <$2k I paid for it, but it's max update rate is just some 11k wfms/s and FFT is limited, too (IIRC 128k on the RTM2000), and while it was good it wasn't nearly good enough to justify anything close to the $5k R&S wants for the smallest model.

And any of the options from R&S will be very expensive, too.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4532
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2016, 07:23:17 am »
From a budgeting and support perspective however it does make me feel better if I know that my product will be supported for another 5-10 years.
You shouldn't have to worry about that, Keysight have pared back their older promises and advertising of specific service life expectations but we just had a scope 5 years into "extended support" (their new term for the date of discontinuing a product) go in for service and any parts we could need were available. Common with the other major T&M manufacturers discontinuation is usually announced in advance and the older products continue to be sold on for years in support of long term test applications even after a replacement is brought to market. You'll get similar experiences from Tek and Lecroy.

In the interim however I will get in touch with Teledyne LeCroy and also Rohde & Schwarz (the RTE looks super interesting but seems to lack reviews online) to demo their units.
Best option is to demo all you can, you get a feel for the scopes and the level of support you can get locally. Once you've compared a few do return and post your thoughts, its always good to hear what people do and don't like about the different options.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 09:25:02 am by Someone »
 

Offline nfmax

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1562
  • Country: gb
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #93 on: August 23, 2016, 08:32:17 am »
Comparing the two series, the 3000's offer a maximum of 4Mpts memory, while the 2000's offer only 1Mpt. But it seems there are actually two MZ4 ASICs in the 3000 and one in 2000, so you might expect a 2:1 ratio in maximum memory. That got me wondering if the 2000 was originally designed to be able to use part-good die, as well as lower speed bins (it has 2Gs/s compared to the 3000A's 4Gs/s)? IIRC it was announced before the 3000. The subsequent speed bump (4Gs/s -> 5 Gs/s) between the 3000A & 3000T is another indication that maybe yields in the higher speed bins have improved over the years.

I get the impression that the MZ4 ASIC was a 'stretch' design, that presumably cost a lot of money, hence Keysight are naturally keen to get the most out of it they can. We may have to wait a while for the MZ5. Clearly the MZ4 can be used in pairs: I wonder if an architecture using four of them is possible? Also presumably, if the ASICs going into current production 2000s are fully functional, a firmware offering 2Mts might be possible.

All this is wild, unfounded speculation, but what the heck, this is the Internet, after all!  ;)
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2016, 09:17:18 am »
The subsequent speed bump (4Gs/s -> 5 Gs/s) between the 3000A & 3000T is another indication that maybe yields in the higher speed bins have improved over the years.

Hardly. The DSOX3000T is pretty much just a DSOX4000A with smaller screen, and the latter already had the faster sample rate right from the start.

Quote
I get the impression that the MZ4 ASIC was a 'stretch' design, that presumably cost a lot of money, hence Keysight are naturally keen to get the most out of it they can.

Of course designing and having to manufacture such a special-purpose ASIC isn't cheap, and they wouldn't be a good business if they didn't try to make most of it.

Quote
We may have to wait a while for the MZ5. Clearly the MZ4 can be used in pairs: I wonder if an architecture using four of them is possible? Also presumably, if the ASICs going into current production 2000s are fully functional, a firmware offering 2Mts might be possible.

I doubt there are as many imperfect MZ4 ASICs as you imagine, after all as others already mentioned the 65nm process is ancient and already has been when the DSOX came out back in 2011. It's a well controlled process with a very high yield rate.

Also, the MegaZoom architecture itself is not limited to 4Mpts, that is only true for the MZ4 variant used in the DSOX. My Infiniium DSO8064A also has MegaZoom, but with 128Mpts of sample memory (it also has a 4GSa/s sample rate, and funny enough, even allows me to disable automatic memory management and set memory manually). And that is just one Agilent scope of several which offer MZ with more than 4Mpts of memory. Even the DSOX predecessors (InfiniiVision DSO6000/7000) offered MegaZoom with 8Mpts.

The simple reason Agilent went for the MZ4 with small memory was to maximize the waveform update rate. Which to some extend is understandable, as these scopes are often used to replace an analog scope, and if you treat a DSO like an analog scope (i.e. staring on waveforms) then the update rate is quite important (less so if you treat a DSO like a DSO, though, and then sample memory size and analysis tools become much more important than an excessive update rate). That paid out in 2011 when there wasn't the same amount of competition as there is today, and where the big brand alternative consisted of the painfully slow Tek DPO2k/3k Series, or the LeCroy WaveSurfer 300A (a scope that was pretty much a 2003 era design by Iwatsu, with low update rates and limited memory). That is different today of course.

Also, MegaZoom is only really fast with small memory and relative small amounts of data. That's where it excels. It doesn't cope well with large memory, or fast sample rates which increase the amount of data it has to process. So it's bes suited for entry-level scopes like the DSOX2k and DSOX3k (and it would be less of a problem if they were priced more appropriately for a 4Mpts scope). Once you need lots of memory and high sample rates then there are other architectures which offer much better waveform performance than MegaZoom, and without its disadvantages.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 09:27:39 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline Faith

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 154
  • Country: sg
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2016, 09:20:19 am »
But it seems there are actually two MZ4 ASICs in the 3000 and one in 2000, so you might expect a 2:1 ratio in maximum memory.

If I'm understanding everything right I think that the MZ4 ASIC actually has 4M memory points each in the 3000T. Just that in the 3000T you have one MZ4 ASIC taking care of a pair of channels.

Thus I think you won't actually experience a decrease in memory if you are utilizing only two channels as long as you are connected to separate pairs (1 & 3 for instance versus 1 & 2).

It could very well be though that the 2000A is (or was) limited due to having lesser binned parts but you would imagine that after six years they'd be getting incredibly good (near-100%?) yields, especially on such an ancient manufacturing process.

And any of the options from R&S will be very expensive, too.

Yep, noticed >,<"... their options are shockingly expensive. Makes even Keysight look affordable especially when considering the Keysight bundles.

Also my local Rohde & Schwarz online shop is kinda sad with several links 404'ing and options being cryptic which meant that pricing wasn't originally as obvious as it should have been.

It's unlikely I will get one of their products as I am still insisting on having a built-in Arbitrary Function Generator, but hey, they looked interesting so I may as well just have a poke just so that I know what's out there!~
<3 ~Faith~
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37742
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #96 on: August 23, 2016, 09:26:42 am »
Also, the MegaZoom architecture itself is not limited to 4Mpts, that is only true for the MZ4 variant used in the DSOX. My Infiniium DSO8064A also has MegaZoom, but with 128Mpts of sample memory (it also has a 4GSa/s sample rate). And that is just one Agilent scope of several which offer MZ with more than 4Mpts of memory. Even the DSOX predecessors (InfiniiVision DSO6000/7000) offered MegaZoom with 8Mpts.

The reason Agilent went for the MZ4 with small memory was to maximize the waveform update rate.

They went with 4Mpts because that's what size memory is built onto the MZ4 die, that's what makes it crazy fast.
If the higher power scope use more and the same ASIC then they must be bypassing the internal memory and using external.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37742
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #97 on: August 23, 2016, 09:29:29 am »
Comparing the two series, the 3000's offer a maximum of 4Mpts memory, while the 2000's offer only 1Mpt. But it seems there are actually two MZ4 ASICs in the 3000 and one in 2000, so you might expect a 2:1 ratio in maximum memory. That got me wondering if the 2000 was originally designed to be able to use part-good die, as well as lower speed bins (it has 2Gs/s compared to the 3000A's 4Gs/s)?

Nope, it's the exact same good die. The limited memory on the 2000 is purely a marketing spec decision. They always reserved the right to up the memory later via a software update to compete with competition.

 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37742
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #98 on: August 23, 2016, 09:32:33 am »
BTW, how old is the 2000/3000 series now?  :o
Remember when it used to be untouchable?!
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Comparing Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
« Reply #99 on: August 23, 2016, 09:32:55 am »
They went with 4Mpts because that's what size memory is built onto the MZ4 die, that's what makes it crazy fast.

I'm not sure that putting some DDR2 memory on the same die provides such a performance advantage. What it does though is reduce costs.

Quote
If the higher power scope use more and the same ASIC then they must be bypassing the internal memory and using external.

I doubt it's the exactly same ASIC, but yes I'd guess the memory is external.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf