Final Questions Before I Get My First Oscilloscope

[markone]

The R&S HMO1000 & HMO1200 series have a much better construction quality than most tipical cheap scopes, just take a look to Dave's tear down video of Siglent and new cheap GW Insteak lines and you can see what i mean.

Rigol is one or more step ahead the latters and a step behind bottom line R&S.

I do not even mention Hantek because is the king of the cr*ap, to say the least.

The R&S strong points are UI architecture, panel commands responsivity, FFT resolution & usability, fast math and HW decoder for serial protocols.

The bad point are screen size, 8 channel LA and ... the price !

Here the story abruptly ends for most money sensitive hobbiest.

If you are a "simple" end user you can save yourself to call them, they did not give you any substantial discount, if not any attention as soon as you declare to be an hobbiest interested to their bottom line products, no sh*t !

If you are an end user with some engagement with professional market vendors you can try to play that card, but highly doubt that you will get all SW options for free 

Let's take the HMO1212, here in EU goes for :

- base unit 1100 E plus taxes
- I2C/UART/SPI decoding options 300 E plus taxes
- 200Mhz BW upgrade 300 E plus taxes
- 8 ch LA options 300 E plus taxes

so we have :

1700 * 1.21 (average EU vat) = 2057 Euro for 200Mhz DSO
2000 * 1.21 (average EU vat) = 2400 Euro for 200Mhz 8ch LAMSO

If we compare it to Rigol DS2072A / MSO2072A models fully expanded for free we have a 2X factor and Rigol MSO comes with 16ch LA against 8ch R&S solution.

If you need serial protocol HW decoding and/or a serious FFT function and/or fast math then R&S becomes a winner, otherwise go for Rigol, at least until the full options free upgrade works.

Your first scope ... i guess you do not need any of above features, if positive and if you are not a reach men go for DS1054Z (caution, good sight required) or DS2072A plus SDG2042X signal generator.

If you are a reach men, call R&S, TEK or Keysight and declare in advance that you have some KiloBucks / KiloEuro that are willing to leave your pocket for their bottom line products, they maybe will give some attentions.

Just my 2 cents.

[Wuerstchenhund]

The R&S strong points are UI architecture, panel commands responsivity, FFT resolution & usability,

Well, FFT is better than with Rigol and Siglent but at least on paper it's still inferior to the GDS2000E. There are not many scopes in that class that can do 1Mpts FFT, even in the lower mid-range you're mostly stuck with 128k or less (unless you buy LeCroy).

If you are a "simple" end user you can save yourself to call them, they did not give you any substantial discount, if not any attention as soon as you declare to be an hobbiest interested to their bottom line products, no sh*t !

Sure, save the call. At the end of the day it's only your loss not theirs. If you can't be arsed to do the effort then you deserve paying list price. It's as simple as that.

Let's take the HMO1212, here in EU goes for :

- base unit 1100 E plus taxes
- I2C/UART/SPI decoding options 300 E plus taxes
- 200Mhz BW upgrade 300 E plus taxes
- 8 ch LA options 300 E plus taxes

so we have :

1700 * 1.21 (average EU vat) = 2057 Euro for 200Mhz DSO
2000 * 1.21 (average EU vat) = 2400 Euro for 200Mhz 8ch LAMSO

TME has the 100MHz HMO1222 for $1049, plus it's pretty common that it takes a while for a new scope to drop in price. Don't forget that the HMO1200 is brand new while the Rigol DS2000 in pretty old.

As to pricing for hobbyists, some time ago the Hameg product manager joined the forum under the name 'CookMeSomeKai':

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-hmo-1002-economy-dso-from-rohde-schwarz-hameg/msg453318/#msg453318

It could be a good chance to lobby him for some more realistic pricing for the various options (i.e. maybe they can do some bundles as Keysight and LeCroy regularly do). The HMO1200 is in the same market segment as the Rigol DS2000 and the GDS2000E, and I'd think R&S might actually welcome ideas how they can get a bigger share of the pie.

[markone]

Well, FFT is better than with Rigol and Siglent but at least on paper it's still inferior to the GDS2000E. There are not many scopes in that class that can do 1Mpts FFT, even in the lower mid-range you're mostly stuck with 128k or less (unless you buy LeCroy).

If remember right the R&S FFT supports averaging while GDS2000E not, anyway the main point is that GW construction quality is way lower and UI navigation is a PITA.

Those R&S scopes are sure a beauty, screen size and limited LA channels numbers apart, but the price for base unit plus options is not the best for end users.

TME has the 100MHz HMO1222 for $1049, plus it's pretty common that it takes a while for a new scope to drop in price. Don't forget that the HMO1200 is brand new while the Rigol DS2000 in pretty old.

If you are referring to hmo1212, 1049 is the Euro price,  the right USD price is 1149$, plus shipping and import taxes :

http://www.tme.eu/it/details/hmo1212/oscilloscopi-digitali/rohde-schwarz/

Aniway right now it's out of stock.

But i wonder what level of service R&S USA will provide to an US buyer with a broken equipment imported from Poland.

I know very well TME because i often buy electronic components from them, the customer service is not as good as their prices.

[Muxr]

Let's take the HMO1212, here in EU goes for :

- base unit 1100 E plus taxes
- I2C/UART/SPI decoding options 300 E plus taxes
- 200Mhz BW upgrade 300 E plus taxes
- 8 ch LA options 300 E plus taxes

so we have :

1700 * 1.21 (average EU vat) = 2057 Euro for 200Mhz DSO
2000 * 1.21 (average EU vat) = 2400 Euro for 200Mhz 8ch LAMSO

If we compare it to Rigol DS2072A / MSO2072A models fully expanded for free we have a 2X factor and Rigol MSO comes with 16ch LA against 8ch R&S solution.

If you need serial protocol HW decoding and/or a serious FFT function and/or fast math then R&S becomes a winner, otherwise go for Rigol, at least until the full options free upgrade works.

Rigol's protocol decode is next to useless. It decodes only what's on the screen and if you try to zoom out more to get more information on there it will decode it wrongly. It's a feature you cannot rely on. I would not compare it to a real serial decode. R&S decode and Rigol decode are apples and oranges.

DSOs don't have an LA not sure why even include that. HMO has it upgradable combined with an actual in memory decoding feature.

Only thing you get with Rigol's hack that's of any real usable and noticeable value is the free bandwidth upgrade if you hack it, that's really it. These other features sound good on paper but when you consider bugs and limitations they are next to useless.

I mean don't get me wrong, DS2072A is a compelling package, but let's not pretend it's on the equal footing feature for feature with R&S. You pay more for R&S yes but you do get what you pay for.

[markone]

Rigol's protocol decode is next to useless. It decodes only what's on the screen and if you try to zoom out more to get more information on there it will decode it wrongly. It's a feature you cannot rely on. I would not compare it to a real serial decode. R&S decode and Rigol decode are apples and oranges.

Next to useless or not depends heavily on user skill level and it's needing, i will say better than nothing for experienced ones and lot of value for beginners.

HW decoding is another world but if you, for example, are an hoobbiest that mainly play with Arduino and some shields then RIGOL's SW decoding is more than enough.

IMHO the most useless function present in ALL Rigol's scopes is FFT, regardless the cost.

I can understand to find the FFT toy inside the DS1000Z series but sure not in the DS2000A or higher ones.

DSOs don't have an LA not sure why even include that. HMO has it upgradable combined with an actual in memory decoding feature.

Not sure about what you mean with "DSOs don't have an LA not sure why even include that", anyway i consider everything less 16 channels next to useless and good only for serial protocol decoding, here R&S made a huge mistake going for only 8 channels, but maybe it's a marketing choice.

Only thing you get with Rigol's hack that's of any real usable and noticeable value is the free bandwidth upgrade if you hack it, that's really it. These other features sound good on paper but when you consider bugs and limitations they are next to useless.

Again, next to useless or not must defined case by case, it could vary from utterly useless to great value.

We all know that Rigol hackability level is playing a key role on selling numbers and last but not the least the build quality is pretty decent.

But the point is that here we have tons of newbies that place everyday the very same questions for cheap scopes, signal generators and DMM, usually they have limited pocket capabilities, suggesting them expensive professional equipment is next to useless.

[Wuerstchenhund]

TME has the 100MHz HMO1222 for $1049, plus it's pretty common that it takes a while for a new scope to drop in price. Don't forget that the HMO1200 is brand new while the Rigol DS2000 in pretty old.

If you are referring to hmo1212, 1049 is the Euro price, 

You're right of course, I wanted to write € but then pressed the $ sign

Aniway right now it's out of stock.

No surprise, because the scope has just been released. I'd guess stock levels to be increasing over the next month.

But i wonder what level of service R&S USA will provide to an US buyer with a broken equipment imported from Poland.

The same they would provide for a scope bought in the U.S., or R&S Europe would provide for a U.S. bought device. All more expensive R&S gear comes with international warranty, and I can't see why for the ex-Hameg now 'Value Instruments' Series it should be any different. After all, the HMO scopes are produced in CZ, and unlike Siglent (who seems to have a problem with illegit "midnight production runs") all R&S scopes are genuine.

I know very well TME because i often buy electronic components from them, the customer service is not as good as their prices.

You don't have to deal with TME for any support issue. It's just the Chinese B-brands who push you to go through the reseller.

[Fungus]

But the point is that here we have tons of newbies that place everyday the very same questions for cheap scopes, signal generators and DMM, usually they have limited pocket capabilities, suggesting them expensive professional equipment is next to useless.

$400 for 100MHz, 4-channel Rigol with tons of memory vs. $1200 for 100MHz, 2-Channel R&S? That's a no-brainer for a lot of people.

I could understand spending more if Rigol build quality was rubbish but they're pretty solid. And user interface isn't awful. Paying three times more for less channels just to get a bit nicer interface? That's a luxury 'scope you're looking at.

[nctnico]

anyway the main point is that GW construction quality is way lower and UI navigation is a PITA.

Sorry but this is just BS. Off the bat the HMO1202 has no carrying handle, the run/stop button is in the wrong place and where is the 'single' button? If you compare the HMO1202 Dave took apart with the GDS2204E you will see their construction is very similar. 2 plastic shells and a couple of PCB boards. Actually you could argue the way the board is mounted in the HMO1202 makes it susceptible to flexing when the oscilloscope is shaken. There is absolutely no support in the middle  And then there are the solder mounted BNCs in the HMO so all the force used when connecting a probe or cable gets transferred into the PCB versus the BNCs bolted onto the chassis with washers and nuts in the GW Instek. Must I continue? All in all I think you are just parrotting Dave here. If it has a name brand on it he immeditialy calls it a quality bit of kit  Yeah right...

Also the UI navigation on the GW Instek scopes is just fine. Until now I have used about 15 different scopes extensively and every scope has strong and weak points. Actually the GW Instek is among the ones with the fewest weak points in the UI and it has several clever things in the UI as well. Just like my Agilent DSO7104 the FFT setup takes some getting used to but at least the GW instek doesn't have the rotate and select push button combined in one knob like my DSO7104 has and regulary selects the wrong item.

[Fungus]

If the manufacturers had any brains they'd come on here and ask things like:

"What's the one thing you'd change about the UI?"

Yeah, there's a few idiots here but they'd get a lot of useful feedback IMHO.

From real users.

And it's free to do, so... 

[Wuerstchenhund]

IMHO the most useless function present in ALL Rigol's scopes is FFT, regardless the cost.

I can understand to find the FFT toy inside the DS1000Z series but sure not in the DS2000A or higher ones.

 

FFT in *ALL* Rigol scopes is beyond embarassing as even the DS6000 (Rigol's most expensive scope for which they want something in the region of $9k) only does 4000 points or so with FFT 

I'm no fan of Siglent but even their scopes manage to do better.

But the point is that here we have tons of newbies that place everyday the very same questions for cheap scopes, signal generators and DMM, usually they have limited pocket capabilities, suggesting them expensive professional equipment is next to useless.

You're kidding, right? The HMO1200 is a bit more expensive than the Chinese B-brands and GW Instek (which is somewhere in the middle I guess) but if you believe that what what once was Hameg and now is R&S 'Value Instruments' (hint: the name gives it away!) is "expensive professional equipment" then you don't know much about test equipment. HMOs are aimed at exactly the same audience as all the other entry-level scopes.

[Wuerstchenhund]

$400 for 100MHz, 4-channel Rigol with tons of memory vs. $1200 for 100MHz, 2-Channel R&S? That's a no-brainer for a lot of people.

I could understand spending more if Rigol build quality was rubbish but they're pretty solid. And user interface isn't awful. Paying three times more for less channels just to get a bit nicer interface? That's a luxury 'scope you're looking at.

So you believe that aside from the price both scopes are pretty much the same? Seriously? 

How about the fact that the Rigol only has 1GSa/s in single channel mode (and 500MSa/s in dual channel mode, and a measly 250MSa/s in four channel mode) while the HMO1200 runs at up to 2GSa/s on one and 1GSa/s on two channels?  How about the utterly useless FFT on the Rigol (4kpts) vs 128kpts on the HMO1200? Or the lack of Pattern Generator or Component Tester on the Rigol? And so on.

And this doesn't even include Rigol's lacklustre support or the fact that like pretty much any Rigol product the DS1000z came to market with major firmware flaws.

Don't get me wrong, the Rigol DG1054z is without a doubt a great bargain at $400 and makes a great beginner's scope, but thinking it's even in the same league as the HMO1200 is pretty silly. The HMO1200 does not compete against Rigol's bottom-of-the-barrel, it competes against scopes like the Rigol DS2000A and the Keysight DSOX2000A, the Siglent SDS2000(X) and the GW Instek GDS2000 Series.

[markone]

You're kidding, right? The HMO1200 is a bit more expensive than the Chinese B-brands and GW Instek (which is somewhere in the middle I guess) but if you believe that what what once was Hameg and now is R&S 'Value Instruments' (hint: the name gives it away!) is "expensive professional equipment" then you don't know much about test equipment. HMOs are aimed at exactly the same audience as all the other entry-level scopes.

I know a looot more than you think, but that's not the point nor the place to discuss about that.

Let's say that the first thing that comes in my mind when a person ask for an hint regarding "my first scope" is not an image of Rohde & Schwarz DSO that comes at 1300 Euro base unit, and becomes 2K euro adding a couple of options.

This does not means that i do not like it, but i see it more aimed to educational and small professional lab than hobbiest market.

Including in the price the serial decoding option and putting on catalog a convenient bundle with LA probe option could change things a lot, but it not appears to be the case.

Maybe there is a way to simplify the life to those asking hints for my first "everything" : declare a budget limit, just to cut the "bandwidth" of incoming prompters.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Let's say that the first thing that comes in my mind when a person ask for an hint regarding "my first scope" is not an image of Rohde & Schwarz DSO that comes at 1300 Euro base unit, and becomes 2K euro adding a couple of options.

This does not means that i do not like it, but i see it more aimed to educational and small professional lab than hobbiest market.

For an experienced engineer, the first thing when being asked for a recommendation of an entry level scope is always to find out what the beginner wants to do with it and what budget he has.

Blindly recommending a $400 Rigol is as silly as recommending a $3k LeCroy. Individual requirements vary too much, and just because in general $400 is cheap for what you get with a DS1054z doesn't necessarily mean it's money well spent for the beginner. Also, a lot of the 'features' in Rigol scopes like FFT, the onscreen-only decode and the large memory without any sane search facility are merely checkbox exercises and have a good chance to lead to a lot of frustration when the newbie starts to actually use them. Plus the various bugs often do their part to increase frustration, too, especially when you have to wonder if the an obvious issue is caused by the UUT or by the scope. And worst case the $400 bargain will mean a waste of money for the beginner and a person that may well be turned away from EE for good when a bit higher investment in a more reliable/mature/capable instrument could have eaasily avoided that and provided the beginner with a dependable scope he can enjoy for a long time.

Maybe there is a way to simplify the life to those asking hints for my first "everything" : declare a budget limit, just to cut the "bandwidth" of incoming prompters.

There isn't one, really. You can probably come up with a few standard situations (i.e. the most common ones) and put together example recommendations for them, but at the end of the day the best scope depends on what the user wants to do and what he can afford, plus it depends on his location and the willingness to consider 2nd hand gear as well.

There are simply too many factors involved for a "one size fits all" recommendation.

[nctnico]

Going back to the OP's first post he states he has a budget of $1200. Now there are two dimensions to this:
1) Does he need to spend all of it?
2) What is the best scope for $1200 ?

One could do a graph with value for money versus price. No doubt the Rigol DS1000Z scores good when it comes to value for money but there may be better units out there and more money buys more useful features.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Going back to the OP's first post he states he has a budget of $1200. Now there are two dimensions to this:
1) Does he need to spend all of it?
2) What is the best scope for $1200 ?

Unfortunately he hasn't told us much about what he wants to do, and if it's just for a bit of fiddling as a hobby or a more serious entry into EE, so we can only guess...

One could do a graph with value for money versus price. No doubt the Rigol DS1000Z scores good when it comes to value for money but there may be better units out there and more money buys more useful features.

I Agree.

[markone]

As far as i understood 1200USD is the whole budget to acquire scope (maybe with decoding functions) and and signal generator, so the amount for the DSO should be lower.

All my previous statements were based on that.

@ teamSMITHusa :

- could you more specific about what are you doing with your setup ?
- are the signal generator and the decoding functions a "must to have" staying within 1200USD ?

[tsaG]

One quick question since the HMO 1002 or 1202 was mentioned here. Are the options or the bandwidth upgrades hackable?

Thanks!

[Fungus]

For an experienced engineer, the first thing when being asked for a recommendation of an entry level scope is always to find out what the beginner wants to do with it and what budget he has.

Unfortunately the OP has disappeared.

$400 is cheap for what you get with a DS1054z doesn't necessarily mean it's money well spent for the beginner. Also, a lot of the 'features' in Rigol scopes like FFT, the onscreen-only decode and the large memory without any sane search facility are merely checkbox exercises and have a good chance to lead to a lot of frustration when the newbie starts to actually use them. Plus the various bugs often do their part to increase frustration, too, especially when you have to wonder if the an obvious issue is caused by the UUT or by the scope.

We get it. You don't personally like the Rigol. On the other hand: Plenty of people do, including Dave Jones.

And ... you're exaggerating the supposed defects. Rigol has fixed almost all the problems via. firmware updates over the last year. They've even added new features for us, including a dramatically improved FFT. Yes, it's not quite as good as the R&S but it has four channels and it's 1/3 the price.

PS: Only two channels is a deal breaker for plenty of people (eg. me). 

Doesn't matter how much I like the R&S, I wouldn't buy one even if I had the money.

[Muxr]

One quick question since the HMO 1002 or 1202 was mentioned here. Are the options or the bandwidth upgrades hackable?

Thanks!

There are no known hacks available for HMO1202. It's a brand new scope, so doubt anyone has even had a chance to take a snif at it.

[tsaG]

What about the 1002?

[Mechatrommer]

How about the utterly useless FFT on the Rigol (4kpts)

where did you get that? 6 months ago? with the latest FW, my calculation indicated that ds1000z is using 16Ksample signal points translated into usable half side of FFT data ie 8K FFT points... my question though... do "other-than-rigol" scope provide SDK (PC connectivity and programmability) documentation? namely..
1) gwInstek?
2) Siglent?
3) the R&S 1200 etc
that talked much about in here?
if yes can someone provide the link so i can have a peek?
if no answer, i guess the answer is no...

[Muxr]

The OP wants a modern scope in the $1200 range, which he will be happy with for the next 5 years and have some soft unlock room to grow. I think HMO1202 fills that requirement perfectly.

Having used both Rigol scopes and R&S scopes, I believe anyone is going to prefer using an R&S scope over a Rigol scope on a day to day basis for the next 5 years. The UI and the firmware is significantly more polished. The controls feel better and the scope is more responsive.

Rigol offers significant bang per buck advantage in terms of raw specs mainly due to the available hack/unlock in terms of bandwidth. If you value bandwidth over a well rounded scope than by all means get a Rigol.

Both scopes should be considered, and so should GW Instek. At the end of the day it's about a personal preference. I know if it was my money I would go for the R&S, because I place high importance on the ergonomics and quality of the tool I am using.

[markone]

One quick question since the HMO 1002 or 1202 was mentioned here. Are the options or the bandwidth upgrades hackable?

Thanks!

 

If positive, the whole discussion would have been a lot different, but i does not appear to be the case.

[nctnico]

@Mechatrommer:
There is a programming manual for the GDS2204E I have; it can talk SCPI over LAN or USB. There is also a Labview driver:
http://www.gwinstek.com/en-global/products/Oscilloscopes/Digital_Storage_Oscilloscopes/GDS-2000E

I don't agree with buying software options later. After 5 years technology will have moved on so much that it makes more sense to buy a new oscilloscope. It also doesn't make sense to invest more money into a scope than that it is worth. Remember that test equipment devaluates faster than a car!

[Fungus]

How about the utterly useless FFT on the Rigol (4kpts)

where did you get that? 6 months ago?

I'm guessing "last week". When Dave Jones made his FFT video.

Dave probably hasn't updated his DS1054Z firmware in a while... not since they fixed the 'jitter' bug for him.

Is any other company providing such regular firmware updates and new features for their 'scopes?

Yeah, we know. Everybody else gets it perfect on the first attempt.

(not)