Author Topic: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?  (Read 17905 times)

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Offline dimkasta

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2017, 12:22:02 am »
Just for reference, if the encoders on the 1054 are anything like those on 1052, then in a few months they will start bouncing around, and they will have to be cleaned or replaced.
It is a pretty easy fix, but it is annoying on a relatively new scope. Especially for people that want fast response.
I just changed mine (couldn't find the heart to open it up earlier) and now it feels awesome to use.
 

Offline andrija

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2017, 09:22:48 pm »
Rigol 20**A is absolutely terrible in this regard. Even if 2 seconds is an exaggeration, half a second is not and still is way beyond what I find acceptable. To make it worse it does not have acceleration (trace moves faster if you turn encoder faster). It changes how one feels using a scope - it becomes a chore when it should be fun. I mean I am personally on a lookout for a new scope for that reason alone, even though hacked Rigol is beyond what I need. Control responsiveness will be high on my list when shopping for next scope.
 

Offline Daniel Bogdanoff

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2017, 09:25:36 pm »
It was mentioned already, but our new InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscope is super snappy:

http://bit.ly/1000X-Series
Test and Measurement!
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2017, 12:55:37 am »
Rigol 20**A is absolutely terrible in this regard. Even if 2 seconds is an exaggeration, half a second is not and still is way beyond what I find acceptable. To make it worse it does not have acceleration (trace moves faster if you turn encoder faster).
Having recently calibrated two Rigol MSO1074Z models I would say that control (non)responsiveness is a serious usability issue.  Perhaps not a problem if you have all day to turn the controls and wait for something to happen, but not great when your customer has to pay for your wasted time.

I also noticed that a Tektronix TDS 3034C 'scope calibrated shortly before these two was also fairly horrible.  The Rigols are around $2k in local money compared to $16k+ for the Tektronix, so it was disappointing to find usability issues in such an expensive piece of equipment.

(Taking a PNG screen-shot to USB caused similarly long delays on each, suggesting that they're under-powered in terms of available processing power to drive the UI.  This is surprising when there are so many extremely fast embedded systems designed for driving smart phones and the like.)
 

Offline phliar

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2017, 01:05:25 am »
I just bought a 1054Z last week, and I too find the lag unacceptable -- especially the vertical move. It's almost unusable. (But of course you can't beat $400 for a new 4x100MHz scope....)

I remember that even the crappy sub-MHz analog scopes I got to use ages ago as an undergrad were wonderful to use, absolutely no lag. If I can't find the money for a fancy HP (I refuse to use the crap new names  >:D) or R&S in the next few months I'm getting a CRO.
Returning to electronics after a 25 year break.
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2017, 01:44:24 am »
I just bought a 1054Z last week, and I too find the lag unacceptable -- especially the vertical move. It's almost unusable. (But of course you can't beat $400 for a new 4x100MHz scope....)

I remember that even the crappy sub-MHz analog scopes I got to use ages ago as an undergrad were wonderful to use, absolutely no lag. If I can't find the money for a fancy HP (I refuse to use the crap new names  >:D) or R&S in the next few months I'm getting a CRO.

Of course the analog scopes are responsive, all the knob does is change the DC offset on the deflection grids or the gain of some amplifier or timer.

With the analog scope you will give up single-shot mode, decoding and measurements.  That's kind of a big deal.  You can probably get a 4 channel analog scope.  I have a Tek 485 for the high frequency stuff but I find the DS1054Z just fine for my hobby projects.

For those who want faster response, the GW Instek is probably the way to go (I don't have one).  Assuming the cost and features are similar...  If they aren't then trade-offs have to be made.  Given enough money you can buy all the UI response you want (I guess).

Given that I already had a fast/responsive scope, the only reason for buying the DS1054Z was 4 channels, decoding, measurements and one-shot mode.  I wanted all those features enough to own two scopes.  The 485 tends to sit under my table.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2017, 03:33:39 am »
With the analog scope you will give up single-shot mode, decoding and measurements.  That's kind of a big deal.
Plenty of CRO storage scopes (http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/CRT_storage_scope) still around, so you don't have to be stuck without single shot capture and with a horizontal vernier/uncal/var you can do serial decoding by eye when needed.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2017, 05:30:34 am »
I'm still on DS1054Z firmware 04.03.01.05, and have been reluctant to upgrade it past that because of the reports of the slow responsiveness of the scope with the recent versions of the firmware.

Is the responsiveness of the scope any worse with the latest firmware than with the firmware that I'm on, particular with respect to movement of traces?

I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade if it were possible to revert, but it's not.


EDIT: Nevermind.  I looked at Fungus' video and used that as a baseline for comparison.  My scope was no more or less responsive than his, so I went ahead with the firmware upgrade (which appears to have worked), and am doing the self-cal now after performing the factory reset.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 03:04:22 pm by kcbrown »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2017, 08:40:01 am »
I remember that even the crappy sub-MHz analog scopes I got to use ages ago as an undergrad were wonderful to use, absolutely no lag.
They were literally a potentiometer connected directly to the vertical offset op-amp so of course there was no lag.

For those who want faster response, the GW Instek is probably the way to go (I don't have one).  Assuming the cost and features are similar...

Sure, but the features aren't similar.

Until the last month or so, extra responsiveness would have cost you $600+. That's an awful lot of money to fix a minor problem.

Even now it's still going to cost you hundreds of $$$ to get better response unless you give up a couple of channels or half your bandwidth and a lot of features.

I don't see it as a deal breaker really. If I sit down and obsess over the response knob then it it looks/feels like a problem, yes. In real use I don't really spend much of the time moving the trace up/down, so...  :-//

PS: A lot of the perceived lag is down to your finger technique. It works much better if you 'twiddle' the knob. Here's a slightly out of focus video I recorded a while back:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/


 

Online nctnico

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2017, 07:32:31 am »
It was mentioned already, but our new InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscope is super snappy:

http://bit.ly/1000X-Series
Maybe but the single row of on-screen menus makes the scope much harder to drive. You need to go through a lot more sub-menus to setup things like decoding, triggering, probe attenuation scale, etc.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline AndyP

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2017, 07:17:16 am »
The MicSig TO1104 interface speed is quite quick and the serial decoders are now available (if you have a chat with sales). It has all the features I've needed, and running of battery is useful for quick grab the scope and measure jobs.

 

Offline saturation

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2017, 09:18:45 pm »
The lowly GW Instek 1054B will show no lag in screen response using 4 channels on _and_ FFT [ that's 5 traces simultaneous] at 100K memory depth.

The higher the mem depth the greater the lag. It will show a similar lag at 1 Mpts 4 CH + FFT similar to 10 Mpts at 4 CH with no FFT; in place of the FFT if you use the advance math functions it will start to lag depending on mem depth and complexity of your equation.

Sold as 50 MHz, with v1.17 firmware  it is - 3dB at 80 MHz at 3 or 4  CH, 110 MHz at 2 CH and 120 1 CH, unmodified.  In empirical use the usable response [ down to -30dB] is sampling rate/3 to as high as /2.  Typically response sampling rate /2.5.

It does not have any serial decode.
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2017, 05:37:38 am »
I don't see it as a deal breaker really. If I sit down and obsess over the response knob then it it looks/feels like a problem, yes. In real use I don't really spend much of the time moving the trace up/down, so...  :-//
Setting the trigger point also causes the display to blank while you move the point.

It seems that these 'scopes just can't manage to present traces on screen while controls are adjusted.
Quote
PS: A lot of the perceived lag is down to your finger technique. It works much better if you 'twiddle' the knob. Here's a slightly out of focus video I recorded a while back:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/
That isn't a technique, it is just creating delays long enough for the 'scope to try to draw the traces.  Laggy control use doesn't actually 'fix' laggy response.

It is still going to be faster to move the controls quickly if you know where you want to get to.  If you need to watch the trace, however, then you have to creep the controls forward.

Poor response, making usage difficult.  It may not apply to a particular type of usage, of course, but you shouldn't pretend it isn't an issue.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2017, 07:56:13 am »
Setting the trigger point also causes the display to blank while you move the point.
No it doesn't.

It seems that these 'scopes just can't manage to present traces on screen while controls are adjusted.
Wrong.

At no point does a DS1054Z display 'blank' when you twiddle the controls.

(unless you manage to set the trigger to a value which doesn't trigger, and even then it doesn't 'blank')


Poor response, making usage difficult.  It may not apply to a particular type of usage, of course, but you shouldn't pretend it isn't an issue.

Me? You're the one pretending it's more than a minor niggle.

The only control that's really laggy is the vertical position control. Me? I don't actually spend much time adjusting that in real life, normally only after switching channels on/off or switching AC/DC mode. YMMV but to me it doesn't seem worth spending several hundred $$$ to 'fix' it.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2017, 08:49:15 am »
 :palm: The scope the OP ended up buying is cheaper than the Rigol DS1054Z so why do you need to spend hundreds of dollars to fix it? Besides that laggy controls are a nuisance so it is worth spending the extra money especially if the scope is used professionally.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2017, 08:52:30 am »
:palm: The scope the OP ended up buying is...

...is what? I must have missed that post.

cheaper than the Rigol DS1054Z so why do you need to spend hundreds of dollars to fix it? Besides that laggy controls are a nuisance so it is worth spending the extra money especially if the scope is used professionally.

I'm quite sure the OP didn't get a 100MHz four channel 'scope for less money than a DS1054Z.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 08:54:54 am by Fungus »
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2017, 09:01:23 am »
:palm: The scope the OP ended up buying is...

...is what? I must have missed that post.

cheaper than the Rigol DS1054Z so why do you need to spend hundreds of dollars to fix it? Besides that laggy controls are a nuisance so it is worth spending the extra money especially if the scope is used professionally.

I'm quite sure the OP didn't get a 100MHz four channel 'scope for less money than a DS1054Z.




Great, I didn't know that the GDS-1000B series was so similar to the GDS-2000E. I just bought a 1054B -- if it's as nice as my other Instek for <$400 that's pretty incredible. Thanks for the help.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2017, 10:17:54 am »
OK, so he took half the bandwidth and gave up a whole lot of features instead.  :-//
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2017, 10:25:45 am »
OK, so he took half the bandwidth and gave up a whole lot of features instead.  :-//
If you read the first post carefully you should understand that the OP was looking for an oscilloscope for a specific purpose. Protocol decoding and high bandwidth clearly aren't necessary (the OP has that covered with the scope he/she already owns) but responsive controls are. All in all it seems the OP bought the right tool for the job for as little money as possible and in the end that is what counts.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2017, 11:26:58 am »
OK, you win the "drag the argument as far away from context as possible" debate.

I was only replying to somebody who claims the DS1054Z screen somehow "blanks" whenever you touch a control.

 

Offline FlyingHacker

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2017, 04:03:29 pm »

The ancient Tektronix 2230/2232


That's one of the best scopes ever.

I was just using mine yesterday. It had been a while since the fan was failing. I opened it up and lubed the fan, and all is well.

Man, what a great scope the 2232 is. All the DSO features, peak detect, vector display, the ability to switch to non-storage regular CRO behavior that is of course lightning fast. Not to mention the Tek magician guy Easter egg!

I can't stand the cheap, modern, slow DSOs.  Keysight FTW there.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 04:10:05 pm by FlyingHacker »
--73
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2017, 06:31:22 pm »
Man, what a great scope the 2232 is. All the DSO features, peak detect, vector display, the ability to switch to non-storage regular CRO behavior that is of course lightning fast. Not to mention the Tek magician guy Easter egg!

I can't stand the cheap, modern, slow DSOs.  Keysight FTW there.

The 2232 and its close cousins are the oldest DSOs that I will usually recommend because they support peak detection.  I always wished though that Tektronix had made a combination analog and digital storage oscilloscope faster than 100 MHz like Philips did.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2017, 08:52:35 pm »
I just bought a 1054Z last week, and I too find the lag unacceptable -- especially the vertical move. It's almost unusable. (But of course you can't beat $400 for a new 4x100MHz scope....)

I remember that even the crappy sub-MHz analog scopes I got to use ages ago as an undergrad were wonderful to use, absolutely no lag. If I can't find the money for a fancy HP (I refuse to use the crap new names  >:D) or R&S in the next few months I'm getting a CRO.

Of course the analog scopes are responsive, all the knob does is change the DC offset on the deflection grids or the gain of some amplifier or timer.

That's not *always* true. For example, the Tek 2465 Series (which is an analog scope, no digital storage) used a series of pots for the front panel controls. A reference voltage was applied to each pot and the wiper voltage scanned in sequence by a mux and ADC to determine the position. (Some of the controls even used two pots ganged together, without end stops [so they were continuous rotation]; by using two pots the direction and speed could be determined.

Anyway, on this scope the horizontal and vertical position controls were scanned, the data stored and then the deflection voltage set by a DAC. The only front panel controls not digitally set were focus, graticule illumination (though it could still be turned on an off digitally by the scope) and trace intensity.

This wasn't uncommon amongst high end analog scopes of the era. :)
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2017, 09:33:01 pm »
Of course the analog scopes are responsive, all the knob does is change the DC offset on the deflection grids or the gain of some amplifier or timer.

That's not *always* true. For example, the Tek 2465 Series (which is an analog scope, no digital storage) used a series of pots for the front panel controls. A reference voltage was applied to each pot and the wiper voltage scanned in sequence by a mux and ADC to determine the position. (Some of the controls even used two pots ganged together, without end stops [so they were continuous rotation]; by using two pots the direction and speed could be determined.

Anyway, on this scope the horizontal and vertical position controls were scanned, the data stored and then the deflection voltage set by a DAC. The only front panel controls not digitally set were focus, graticule illumination (though it could still be turned on an off digitally by the scope) and trace intensity.

This wasn't uncommon amongst high end analog scopes of the era. :)

The Tektronix 4 channel 22xx series oscilloscopes do this as well and it is one of the things that allows automatic setup to work.

What is interesting is that Tektronix took advantage of the extra functionality that this can provide; the potentiometer controls are used as absolute encoders but when you change directions, there is a region of fine control so each individual potentiometer used as an encoder is both coarse and fine.

Considering that all of the analog inputs and outputs for the controls are multiplexed and the processor is low performance, the latency is pretty low although noticeable.

Tektronix also implemented continuous turning encoders this way by placing two normal potentiometers on the same shaft but out of phase to remove the ambiguity where the resistive elements are interrupted.  These compare well to the various digital encoders and I wish they were available as standard parts.  I did a search for them a couple months ago and found nothing.
 

Offline timb

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Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2017, 09:56:09 pm »
Of course the analog scopes are responsive, all the knob does is change the DC offset on the deflection grids or the gain of some amplifier or timer.

That's not *always* true. For example, the Tek 2465 Series (which is an analog scope, no digital storage) used a series of pots for the front panel controls. A reference voltage was applied to each pot and the wiper voltage scanned in sequence by a mux and ADC to determine the position. (Some of the controls even used two pots ganged together, without end stops [so they were continuous rotation]; by using two pots the direction and speed could be determined.

Anyway, on this scope the horizontal and vertical position controls were scanned, the data stored and then the deflection voltage set by a DAC. The only front panel controls not digitally set were focus, graticule illumination (though it could still be turned on an off digitally by the scope) and trace intensity.

This wasn't uncommon amongst high end analog scopes of the era. :)

The Tektronix 4 channel 22xx series oscilloscopes do this as well and it is one of the things that allows automatic setup to work.

What is interesting is that Tektronix took advantage of the extra functionality that this can provide; the potentiometer controls are used as absolute encoders but when you change directions, there is a region of fine control so each individual potentiometer used as an encoder is both coarse and fine.

Considering that all of the analog inputs and outputs for the controls are multiplexed and the processor is low performance, the latency is pretty low although noticeable.

Tektronix also implemented continuous turning encoders this way by placing two normal potentiometers on the same shaft but out of phase to remove the ambiguity where the resistive elements are interrupted.  These compare well to the various digital encoders and I wish they were available as standard parts.  I did a search for them a couple months ago and found nothing.

Yeah, it was a very clever system and the way they transitioned from coarse to fine actually works really well.

The 2465 Series has no noticeable lag to me; everything is basically instantly responsive. This is pretty impressive as you'd think the processor (an M68K) is handling quite a lot. However, they used numerous tricks to offload tasks from the CPU. The way character generation was handled was pretty clever. The CPU simply drops the readout data onto a specific memory location and a separate circuit takes care of decoding it, reading the character data from a ROM and loading it into a DAC, byte by byte. The time multiplexing of the beam between trace and readout is also handled by a dedicated circuit.

Basically there was a data/address bus that ran across the main board and onto the expansion backplane and each module ran pretty much independently, taking a few instructions from the main processor and putting data back onto the bus. This was accomplished with nothing more than logic gates and a master clock, for the most part.

There was also a single ADC and a few DACs on the main board, which were used in place of calibration pots. The DACs were multiplexed, with sample and hold circuits to maintain the voltage when the DAC was scanning. They would also use the ADC to read back the output of the DACs, which increased effective resolution and reduced INL/DNL errors. The CPU spends most of its time reading the front panel and scanning the cal ADC/DACs.

I've looked at the M68K assembly from a system ROM of a 2465B and it seems to be very well written. They clearly had some high end programmers that knew what they were doing. The whole thing is very optimized.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 09:58:09 pm by timb »
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