Keysight MSOX3104T minor niggles

[nfmax]

I recently bought one of these used, from the Keysight eBay store offer, as described in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/buying-keysight-used-my-msox3104t-fully-loaded-experiences/. Now I have used it a while, I am starting this thread to record some minor niggles I have encountered, rather than polluting the previous topic. Hopefully @KeysightDanielBogdanoff can pass these on to someone in a position to influence the firmware development team - most of them are basically software issues:

• When displaying a time trace, the trigger point and time datum are shown at the top of the screen as orange triangular markers. If you enable the FFT trace and hide the time trace, the time markers are still shown in the same screen locations, though they are meaningless as the horizontal axis is now frequency, not time. This is confusing when using FFT peak search, as the peak markers are shown in the same part of the display.
• In FFT peak search mode, it would be really nice to be able to chose to suppress a peak at zero frequency, if one is found. Sometimes these come & go with drifty signals and cause the peak table entries to jump around annoyingly.
• Also in FFT peak search mode, showing 4 decimal places of dB is a bit excessive: 2DP would be fine!

That's all I have for now - I'll post any more I find later.

[2N3055]

What would be nice also that you can select a peak in search and highlight it so it shows which one of the markers is this. Maybe that when selected you can send a cursor to that point so you can set them that way.

[nfmax]

What would be nice also that you can select a peak in search and highlight it so it shows which one of the markers is this. Maybe that when selected you can send a cursor to that point so you can set them that way.

Actually you can do this using the forward & backward search buttons, but only when acquisition is stopped. The highlighted peak is shown by an x-axis cursor. It would be nice if the corresponding marker also changed to the highlight orange colour, instead of remaining white. It would be even nicer if you could touch one of the peak table entries and select it that way as well.

[2N3055]

Actually you can do this using the forward & backward search buttons, but only when acquisition is stopped. The highlighted peak is shown by an x-axis cursor.

Thanks for that. I tried.

If you select tracking cursors, it is always just X1 cursor, not currently selected cursor. If you could send it to X1 and X2 you could easier measure deltas.
If you set manual cursors, it will send to both, X1 and X2 depending which one is selected. But it behaves weirdly. Once you set cursor from peak it automatically switches to track mode. Also cursors are not fully independent. I send something to X1 and it moves X2 to next peak automatically... But once it changes to track mode X2 becomes static. So if you want a delta between two peaks you have to do this:

1. Cursor menu: manual mode
2. click on a peak that is one below what you want X2 to be (if you want to set X2 to peak No 8, you click on peak No 7).
3. It will then set X1 to P7. and X2 to P8. It will also switch to tracking mode by itself
4. Now in tracking mode, you click on wanted peak for X1 ...
Now you can measure delta f and delta level between those two peaks.

That is not very user friendly... I wish that was made better. It could be simpler too.  User selects cursor mode manual or tracking. Don't auto switch between modes. And in both modes (manual or track), select X1 or X2 (or Y1 or Y2 too in manual) and touch peak and it goes to currently selected cursor. Can't be simpler or more intuitive.

It would be nice if the corresponding marker also changed to the highlight orange colour, instead of remaining white. It would be even nicer if you could touch one of the peak table entries and select it that way as well.

That is what i meant. You touch the peak and it shows which one it is. But I can use cursor for that in stop mode.

[nfmax]

For relative measurements (3rd harmonic distortion as dBc) I used the cursors in tracking mode, instead of peak search. Set X1 to the carrier frequency with the on-screen keypad, set X2 to the 3rd harmonic, and read out the distortion level in dBc from the deltaY. This worked for me since I'm using a known carrier frequency. It is easier than peak search, as when you set a 'reference peak' it doesn't change the amplitude readout to use it as the 0dB level, so you have to subtract the levels manually.

[2N3055]

For relative measurements (3rd harmonic distortion as dBc) I used the cursors in tracking mode, instead of peak search. Set X1 to the carrier frequency with the on-screen keypad, set X2 to the 3rd harmonic, and read out the distortion level in dBc from the deltaY. This worked for me since I'm using a known carrier frequency. It is easier than peak search, as when you set a 'reference peak' it doesn't change the amplitude readout to use it as the 0dB level, so you have to subtract the levels manually.

I did that also. But point of peak search is to quickly sift through some signal that you are not familiar with.
To be honest, what we are talking about is SA's job. If I'm really interested in peaks I fire up SA. But since the scope has that functionality, it is not right that it is not implemented in a right way.
It should be done right, it's a premium manufacturer.

[Howardlong]

My niggle is over the screen and its lack of visibility when you place it above head height on the bench, in my case it’s on a shelf above a monitor. I have to tilt it down quite a way to make it visible. Thing is, otherwise it’s very usable like this as you can use an under-desk wireless mouse to control it.

The next thing is that the VGA output is letterboxed in in such a way that when displaying it on an external monitor or using a VGA to HDMi adapter, getting it to fill the screen without distorting the image seems impossible: perhaps others have had better luck?

[2N3055]

My niggle is over the screen and its lack of visibility when you place it above head height on the bench, in my case it’s on a shelf above a monitor. I have to tilt it down quite a way to make it visible. Thing is, otherwise it’s very usable like this as you can use an under-desk wireless mouse to control it.

The next thing is that the VGA output is letterboxed in in such a way that when displaying it on an external monitor or using a VGA to HDMi adapter, getting it to fill the screen without distorting the image seems impossible: perhaps others have had better luck?

Agree, from low angles, not very visible. And also, VGA scaling, not luck here either.

[nfmax]

A couple more:

• When an FFT peak search result has an amplitude just above 0dBV or 0dBm, it is displayed in the listing as a number like '321.443mdBV'. This is just so wrong! What are milli-deci-Bels supposed to be? It should be 0.32dBV in this case - again, 2DP of decibels is plenty for engineering use.
• The settability of the wave generator output is restricted to 0.1Hz steps. At low frequencies, the selected frequency should be displayed in Hz with a single DP, like 0.3Hz, instead of the 300mHz as now shown. This provides a 'false affordance', making the user think they should be able to adjust with a resolution better than 0.1 Hz. Fooled me.
• When you switch on the instrument, only one panel LEDs illuminates immediately - if you don't know where to look, you can miss it, and press the switch again because you think it didn't latch properly. I know: I did! Turn on something bright, like the Run & Stop LEDs, or better, go straight to the lamp test with everything on.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I've passed this thread along to the R&D teams, thanks for the feedback!

[2N3055]

I also have one really little niggle, more like OCD on my part: Scope is showing time in USA format, with time in 12 h AM/PM format on the screen. Could it be made to show military time (24h format) on screen?
It already shows it when you screen grab image to computer, images are stamped with 24h time format. So on a screen grab you have both formats at the same time.
I'm sorry but AM/PM still confuses me after all these years...

[Howardlong]

Would love to see a VESA mount on Keysight ‘scopes. It’s one of the few advantages of Tek scopes.

[nfmax]

The screen grab posted by @2N3055 shows up another thing I have noticed - when channel 3 is selected, the graticule annotation (X & Y axis scales) are shown in dark blue, and in a lighter weight font that is very hard to read. The other channels & functions aren't too bad but the dark blue is almost illegible. There doesn't seem to be a way of varying the annotation intensity, at least that I could find.

[2N3055]

The screen grab posted by @2N3055 shows up another thing I have noticed - when channel 3 is selected, the graticule annotation (X & Y axis scales) are shown in dark blue, and in a lighter weight font that is very hard to read. The other channels & functions aren't too bad but the dark blue is almost illegible. There doesn't seem to be a way of varying the annotation intensity, at least that I could find.

I agree. Graticule annotations are not very visible, they are quite dim.

[nfmax]

Another one:

• When the FRA finishes a sweep, it leaves the wave generator set to the frequency & amplitude of the final step. I would prefer it to disable the generator output after each measurement

[nfmax]

A couple more niggles on the FRA. It doesn't seem possible to set an input channel to 50 ohm termination when using it as the 'output' for an FRA. Also, it would be nice to be able to use a math trace as the 'output', to accommodate differential outputs.

[tv84]

B-brand scopes are "buggy", A-brand scopes have "minor niggles"... Interesting. 

I'm starting to believe that the classification of a "bug" is inversely proportional to the $$$ that ones pays for the equipment. 

[jemangedeslolos]

shitstorm is comming 

[HighVoltage]

I find it really annoying that the serial number is placed on every screen capture.
Why?

It would be nice to have an option to turn this ON and OFF of have a custom message show instead.

[TheSteve]

I find it really annoying that the serial number is placed on every screen capture.
Why?

It would be nice to have an option to turn this ON and OFF of have a custom message show instead.

Maybe they could add the secure type features they have on some VNA's that can hide location, frequency, etc when needed.

[smithnerd]

I find it really annoying that the serial number is placed on every screen capture.
Why?

It would be nice to have an option to turn this ON and OFF of have a custom message show instead.

I've used this ImageMagick one-liner in the past, for B&W screen captures which were intended to be printed:

Code: [Select]

convert scope_0.png -fill white -draw "rectangle 354,12 458,30" output.png

[HighVoltage]

I find it really annoying that the serial number is placed on every screen capture.
Why?

It would be nice to have an option to turn this ON and OFF of have a custom message show instead.

I've used this ImageMagick one-liner in the past, for B&W screen captures which were intended to be printed:

Code: [Select]

convert scope_0.png -fill white -draw "rectangle 354,12 458,30" output.png

Great Solution, Thanks

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Nice tip, @HighVoltage. I'm also always having to crop off the model/serial things. I've passed this thread along to the scopes planners as well - we love feedback!

[TheSteve]

Nice tip, @HighVoltage. I'm also always having to crop off the model/serial things. I've passed this thread along to the scopes planners as well - we love feedback!

That's just cause you have to hide those secret model numbers you don't want us to see yet!

[blacksheeplogic]

I'm starting to believe that the classification of a "bug" is inversely proportional to the $$$ that ones pays for the equipment.

Don't have time to read this thread, but simplistically a bug is unintended behavior and a niggle is intended but judged by some/all as annoying. You get used to the niggles, bugs, not so much....

[nfmax]

It's been a while, but I have just come across another niggle which I think might be a genuine bug.

In zoom mode, if I use the touch screen to position the zoomed part of the trace (which is so much better than trying to use the delay control, especially at high magnifications) it always seems to jump slightly when I lift my finger off the screen, no matter how careful I am.

[Howardlong]

I already posted this in the hacking thread, perhaps it's better here.

Basically, has anyone managed to get the recently released (FW 7.40) USB trigger & decode working in HS on the 3104T?

FS & LS work fine. Possible operator error?

Details here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg3609701/#msg3609701

[Howardlong]

I already posted this in the hacking thread, perhaps it's better here.

Basically, has anyone managed to get the recently released (FW 7.40) USB trigger & decode working in HS on the 3104T?

FS & LS work fine. Possible operator error?

Details here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg3609701/#msg3609701

Turns out it's a bug, USB HS trigger/decode doesn't work yet on MSOX3104T, this from KeysightCare Technical and Application Support:

We could reproduce the issue and found out that the 4000A x-series scope is working fine, but the 3000T x-series scope, which you use, is not and we also got the red lines. Therefore we logged a defect report to our R&D and they will fix it in the next releases. To set the priority to our R&D correctly, could you please let me know if you have any deadline in your projects that prevents you from doing your work or are you able to work with the TEK scopes while we are fixing the issue?

Thank you very much for bringing this to our attention. We are always looking forward to customers feedback to improve our software and hardware.

[2N3055]

You would think that customer that has to use Tek scopes while they fix their bugs would be priority enough, but hey, whatever...

[Howardlong]

You would think that customer that has to use Tek scopes while they fix their bugs would be priority enough, but hey, whatever...

FWIW, this was my response:

Thank you for your response.

I’m OK for now thanks, I can get by, but I much prefer using the snappy UI of a Keysight. I was looking forward to ditching the Teks 😉

Many thanks, Howard

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

In my experience the R&D team is pretty good & quick about getting bugs like this fixed, especially if it already works on the 4000 X-Series (which I believe share a code base). You can always ask for a beta release with the patch, we've been known to do that from time to time (no promises, of course).

[Howardlong]

In my experience the R&D team is pretty good & quick about getting bugs like this fixed, especially if it already works on the 4000 X-Series (which I believe share a code base). You can always ask for a beta release with the patch, we've been known to do that from time to time (no promises, of course).

To be fair, it would have been disingenuous for me to claim it was a showstopper for me when I can use the Tek for this job. My comment regarding strongly favouring the Keysight UI remains though!

[2N3055]

In my experience the R&D team is pretty good & quick about getting bugs like this fixed, especially if it already works on the 4000 X-Series (which I believe share a code base). You can always ask for a beta release with the patch, we've been known to do that from time to time (no promises, of course).

Daniel,

maybe you could help me with my question: I have MSOX3104T with full bundle bought in 2018.  I see now that there are new USB protocols decode/trigger, that would be interesting to me. My bundle has only USB PD decode/trigger. Is there any way to upgrade my older full bundle to full bundle as it is now, and gain new USB decode/trigger options ? And by upgrade I mean to pay some fractional price of the full bundle as it, considering that we already bought it once and only few things are upgraded...
Don't feel obliged to give answer, but if you could help, I would appreciate it very much, as I presume would Howard, and quite few of us around the world.
Lately there were many changes in licensing model, and quite frankly it is a bit confusing...
Thanks for your time and effort here, and if you cannot answer, I understand.

Best regards,

Sinisa

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

@2n3055 I'm honestly not sure. It would have to be a 1-off type thing worked out through your local sales/distributor folks. I know there have been a lot of changes in licensing over the last few years and haven't been connected enough to the details to know how they have decided to handle it. I highly recommend giving the line a call or an email and see what they say for your specific case.

[2N3055]

@2n3055 I'm honestly not sure. It would have to be a 1-off type thing worked out through your local sales/distributor folks. I know there have been a lot of changes in licensing over the last few years and haven't been connected enough to the details to know how they have decided to handle it. I highly recommend giving the line a call or an email and see what they say for your specific case.

Daniel,
thanks a lot for your answer. As I said, it used to be simple and now is both more versatile and confusing. Soon it will be time to extend my maintenance and I will ask then..

All the best,

Sinisa

[Howardlong]

Uh oh! This just in...

Unfortunately I don't have good news to share.

R&D looked into the issue with the 3000T x-series scope and USB 2.0 HS and found out that 3000T x-series scopes can’t support USB High Speed due to HW limitations. SW support for USB HS was accidentally added in the 7.35 GUI along with the intended and working USB LS and FS support.

In summary, USB LS and FS all work in the following.  As far as USB HS…
•   The 3000T Series FPGA cannot handle USB HS.
•   The 4000X Series has a secondary FPGA that handles USB HS in 1GHz+ models
•   The 6000X Series can handle USB HS it in its main FPGA.
R&D is investigating the changes to remove USB HS support from the 3000T Series GUI (targeted for the 7.50 release) while Marketing is reviewing the changes needed to customer facing documents.

My apologies for the mistake which we did in our documentation and software. This will be corrected soon.

Do you also have a 4000X or 6000X series scope from us?

Let me know if I can assist you any further in getting a 4000X or 6000X scope from one of our partners in the UK or with any other question. I hope we didn't loose your trust and you are still interested in ditching the TEKs

[TheSteve]

Wow, that is a pretty huge mistake to make.

[LaurentR]

@2n3055 I'm honestly not sure. It would have to be a 1-off type thing worked out through your local sales/distributor folks. I know there have been a lot of changes in licensing over the last few years and haven't been connected enough to the details to know how they have decided to handle it. I highly recommend giving the line a call or an email and see what they say for your specific case.

Daniel,
thanks a lot for your answer. As I said, it used to be simple and now is both more versatile and confusing. Soon it will be time to extend my maintenance and I will ask then..

All the best,

Sinisa

@2n3055 I'm honestly not sure. It would have to be a 1-off type thing worked out through your local sales/distributor folks. I know there have been a lot of changes in licensing over the last few years and haven't been connected enough to the details to know how they have decided to handle it. I highly recommend giving the line a call or an email and see what they say for your specific case.

I bumped into a similar situation and reached out to support.

I bought a MSOX3104T from the Keysight EBay store with the full app bundle back in May (2021). They were offering (and still offer) the old, discontinued full app bundle (interesting they can still cut new licenses for it even though it's discontinued). Since that bundle predates the existence of the option, it doesn't have USB decode/trigger included.

I asked Keysight support what the status was of the option (the collaterals about the option on the website are a bit all over the place, some claiming it isn't offered, others that is is offered including HS, yet others that is is offered, but no HS).

They were very responsive (always amazed by Keysight support) and got to the bottom of the issue quickly, but declined to add the USB option to my unit, based on the fact that I got what was advertised (fair), and the fact that the bundle had already been discontinued at the time of purchase didn't really play into it (more debatable).

[2N3055]

@2n3055 I'm honestly not sure. It would have to be a 1-off type thing worked out through your local sales/distributor folks. I know there have been a lot of changes in licensing over the last few years and haven't been connected enough to the details to know how they have decided to handle it. I highly recommend giving the line a call or an email and see what they say for your specific case.

Daniel,
thanks a lot for your answer. As I said, it used to be simple and now is both more versatile and confusing. Soon it will be time to extend my maintenance and I will ask then..

All the best,

Sinisa

@2n3055 I'm honestly not sure. It would have to be a 1-off type thing worked out through your local sales/distributor folks. I know there have been a lot of changes in licensing over the last few years and haven't been connected enough to the details to know how they have decided to handle it. I highly recommend giving the line a call or an email and see what they say for your specific case.

I bumped into a similar situation and reached out to support.

I bought a MSOX3104T from the Keysight EBay store with the full app bundle back in May (2021). They were offering (and still offer) the old, discontinued full app bundle (interesting they can still cut new licenses for it even though it's discontinued). Since that bundle predates the existence of the option, it doesn't have USB decode/trigger included.

I asked Keysight support what the status was of the option (the collaterals about the option on the website are a bit all over the place, some claiming it isn't offered, others that is is offered including HS, yet others that is is offered, but no HS).

They were very responsive (always amazed by Keysight support) and got to the bottom of the issue quickly, but declined to add the USB option to my unit, based on the fact that I got what was advertised (fair), and the fact that the bundle had already been discontinued at the time of purchase didn't really play into it (more debatable).

Thank you for joining in the discussion.

I also contacted Keysight support few days ago and just got answer.

I, for one, DID NOT expect to get it for free. I do understand that I got all options on the date of purchase and was not eligible for future upgrades under license I purchased at the time.

But I DID expect that in addition to all those changes in licensing and their apparent move to behave like software vendors and not the  T&M company, they would actually behave like other software companies do.

And that would be to offer UPGRADES for existing customers to newest license, for the FRACTION of the price, like it is customary in software industry.
Their quite snarky and condescending answer was that my solution was easy and that if I simply buy the NEW FULL BUNDLE (for the FULL price) and then I would get all new options.
Simple, right?

My answer to that is that I will be willing to give 10% of full price of bundle to upgrade from my previous FULL product to up to date version. It is only one protocol difference, after all.
I will be willing to repeat that at later date too, if I deem I need new options.
They can get that or take a hike.

It was their choice to move to software vendor practices. It is time to learn how it is done properly.

Don't get me wrong.
Both people from support and Daniel are great people and they give their best to help. THEY are doing AWESOME job.
It is Keysight policy changes that are failing both us customers, and Keysight applications and support engineers by putting them in awkward situations.

At this moment, I'm at verge that my warranty will expire in few months. Plan was to to pay for extension of service agreement for next few years, and to keep scope current with current versions of bundle (as if it was purchased today). That helps me with assessing it's value.  Only few months ago I could sell my scope as "full options top of the line MSOX3104T".
Now it is just a 1GHz scope with"some options".  Also If I buy a new one today (for another technicians seat) I would need to track which one is which...

These changes in company policy are probably good for Keysight profits, and they might be good or, at least, neutral for big customers. But for small customers like me, it gets harder to stick with Keysight. Competition looks better every day, parity in quality and features is melting faster than ice, and fantastic support means nothing if I cannot afford it or their solutions anymore...

Time will tell.

Best regards,

Sinisa