new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[MrW0lf]

Just curious, which option actual R&S people would prefer:
a) Unpleased person keeps asking for fix time to time
b) Unpleased person sells scope and moves to another brand
Not to mix with what's best for actual end user...

[Robaroni]

Just curious, which option actual R&S people would prefer:
a) Unpleased person keeps asking for fix time to time
b) Unpleased person sells scope and moves to another brand
Not to mix with what's best for actual end user...

Actually it is good advise for end users. Tell R&S or whatever manufacturer, want you don't like -once is enough - if you still can't live with it, get rid of it.

Grumble here? After the first grumble it's all downhill.

Buck up and face life - 5 cents please.

[mtdoc]

What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? 

It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.

mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).

Yes, good points and I agree.  But you've been here long enough to see that it's more than that for some people who seem to need to not only discuss the pros and cons of various scopes but who show up on every scope thread pushing their particular choice and criticizing all others.  It seems to be tribal in a way that is not true of other electronics topics on this forum.

Do you have an RTB2K?

No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.  There's the naked emperor.

Yes, it's human nature to embrace, defend and overlook the faults of whatever one has invested in, whether its a spouse, a sports team or I guess, an oscilloscope.  But it's been my observation on this forum for the past few years is that certain members feel the need not only to defend their purchase decisions but to criticize others purchase decisions - especially when it comes to scopes.  And I don't mean just discussing the pros and cons - I mean repeatedly and exclusively pointing out the flaws.

Defending ones spouse (or scope) is expected and proper IMO, repeatedly pointing out someone else's flaws is something else.

The truth is that EVERY scope has it's pros and cons and users make their choices based on which features and what trade offs make sense for them. 

This R&S scope has many pros: large touch screen, 10 bit ADC, deep memory, web interface and a generally very good and responsive user interface (even if not as responsive as the Keysight scopes).  Mike did a very thorough review that was generally very positive for these reasons.  It has some obvious flaws - lack of math functions, some software bugs (some have been addressed in FW updates, others not yet), etc.   

It's main competitor - the Keysight 2000x series scopes also have pros and cons. For example, they have the advantage of a snapier user interface with more mature, bug free firmware.  But its smaller, lower resolution,  non-touch screen and shallow memory depth are notable shortcomings.  Both are excellent scopes as are the comparable LeCroy scopes. Viva la difference.

The scopes from the Chinese makers Rigol, Siglent, and GW Instek, each have their pros and cons as well. Ultimately their shortcomings relative to the "A" brands are compensated for by lower price.   That trade off is a good one for most people - hence their popularity.

[nctnico]

No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.

That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway  . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.

[MrW0lf]

Now in my practice (dev management of some e-commerce stuff with ~100k active customers) these are 3 types of displeased clients:

- "silent quitter", he does not like something, but keeps it secret and eventually runs away, possibly to some other service with million other flaws. This is worst type of customer because I do not even know what to improve. Also customer will probably not be happy also (because other services do have million of other flaws).
- "tells once" customer, better but I'm not sure if he really needs stuff or just nice to have, requests go to the end of todo-list, implementation long time or never. Customer will probably not be happy.
- "active maniac" type, usually small companies. If does not get improvements asks several times. Loyal customers. Not only they do get what they want but greatly help to improve service. Usually I give them some "extra candy" for effort and requests may even get to "now" todo-list because it make my job easier and keep costs down because paid staff has less thinking to do.

So yea, if you want no extra candy just make sure you quit on first bug However if you report 10 and nothing is ever fixed then of course. Either your views are incompatible with dev manager views or product is actually hopeless

Edit: Also some companies use voting system for fixes/improvements. So again "active maniac" is good because he may complain/explain why on some forum also and others notice. If they are displeased alike and report, same problem gets many votes and hopefully fixed. So "active maniac" functions as "passive user activator". Yet again free testing & man hours for producer

[Robaroni]

Now in my practice (dev management of some e-commerce stuff with ~100k active customers) these are 3 types of displeased clients:

- "silent quitter", he does not like something, but keeps it secret and eventually runs away, possibly to some other service with million other flaws. This is worst type of customer because I do not even know what to improve. Also customer will probably not be happy also (because other services do have million of other flaws).
- "tells once" customer, better but I'm not sure if he really needs stuff or just nice to have, requests go to the end of todo-list, implementation long time or never. Customer will probably not be happy.
- "active maniac" type, usually small companies. If does not get improvements asks several times. Loyal customers. Not only they do get what they want but greatly help to improve service. Usually I give them some "extra candy" for effort and requests may even get to "now" todo-list because it make my job easier and keep costs down because paid staff has less thinking to do.

So yea, if you want no extra candy just make sure you quit on first bug However if you report 10 and nothing is ever fixed then of course. Either your views are incompatible with dev manager views or product is actually hopeless

Edit: Also some companies use voting system for fixes/improvements. So again "active maniac" is good because he may complain/explain why on some forum also and others notice. If they are displeased alike and report, same problem gets many votes and hopefully fixed. So "active maniac" functions as "passive user activator". Yet again free testing & man hours for producer

Actually I don't think it works that way. I've run businesses too. Someone registers a complaint, it gets noted. 100 other people  lodge the same complaint, now, depending on the percentages, we might know there's an issue to examine.

Some guy is an "active manic" I give him his money back and tell him to go elsewhere because you can bet he's an "active maniac"  more often than not.

"Free testing"? I'm  designing stuff, it takes time, patience and effort. Life is time what you do with your time you do with your life. I don't review equipment for free, it's a waste of my life and time and besides I find it boring, dead boring, and completely lacking creativity. I'd rather actually design something tangible, something built on creativity that's hopefully profitable. I've sent things out to beta testers but I chose them to fit within specific parameters. A bunch of guys on a forum is pot luck. Sure you might get people who actually know something but you'll also get - well pot luck.

If I buy a piece of equipment that doesn't measure up, the last thing I'm going to do is gripe to a bunch of people whose backgrounds I don't know and who can't do anything for me. I'm going to the source, if they can't resolve it, think I'm wrong or a problem doesn't exist then I'll decide what to do from there. If the RTB2K stunk in my view, and the rest of the world thought it was perfect it wouldn't matter to me one iota. I'd dump it.

I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

ps:
If I was your boss I'd probably fire you for what you just said!

[Robaroni]

No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.

That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway  . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.

That must be some business! It looks like you spend your time on the EEV forum (12,000+ posts) and you're on a thread about a scope you don't even own! What do you get paid by the word?

[KE5FX]

No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.

That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway  . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.

That must be some business! It looks like you spend your time on the EEV forum (12,000+ posts) and you're on a thread about a scope you don't even own! What do you get paid by the word?

Take care when you set out to hunt trolls, lest you become a troll.  And when you stare into the Internet, the Internet also stares into you. - F. Nietzsche 

[Robaroni]

No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.

That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway  . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.

That must be some business! It looks like you spend your time on the EEV forum (12,000+ posts) and you're on a thread about a scope you don't even own! What do you get paid by the word?

Take care when you set out to hunt trolls, lest you become a troll.  And when you stare into the Internet, the Internet also stares into you. - F. Nietzsche 

I think that was updated by his great nephew Frank Nietzsche:

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you or something along those lines.

But I like his interpretation -good point!

[exe]

If I was your boss I'd probably fire you for what you just said!

Oh, c'mon...

Just because you don't share someone's values does not mean you are right and the other guy is wrong. Also, he is from another domain ("dev management of some e-commerce stuff").

PS don't want to play "internet police", just don't like stupid offensive claims "I'd fire you! No, I'd fire you first!". Okay, I'm playing it 

[MrW0lf]

I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?

BTW I'm quite sure you use some open-source free software, not only tested but programmed for free by self-selected and highly non-professional people. Probably would fire those guys too if could

[nctnico]

I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?

Besides that there are lots of people on this forum which are involved in making test equipment purchase decissions and/or giving advice on what to buy.

[Markus@RohdeScopes]

Hi folks,

as promised two days ago, I had a short talk with the responsible product manager of the RTB. The next FW release will take place end of October this year. He told me, that our plan is three FW releases per year. The major focus off this next release is bug fixing.

I hope this helps

Markus

[Robaroni]

Just curious, which option actual R&S people would prefer:
a) Unpleased person keeps asking for fix time to time
b) Unpleased person sells scope and moves to another brand
Not to mix with what's best for actual end user...

OK, that's not accurate:

b. Displeased person contacts manufacturer about anomalies in instrument manufacturer fails to address problems for whatever reason, maybe said person is the only one who finds the anomaly a problem? Whatever, problem is not addressed, displeased person decides to keep the instrument and live with problem or sell it.

What's best for end user is what each specific end user decides. It's his or her decision how to act just like it was his or her decision to buy the instrument in the first place.

[Pinkus]

Can we please stay on topic (R&S / RTB2004) here and move the other discussion to a new thread. Thanks

[Robaroni]

I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?

BTW I'm quite sure you use some open-source free software, not only tested but programmed for free by self-selected and highly non-professional people. Probably would fire those guys too if could

The manufacturer is in business to sell products. Period! IF what the manufacturer is selling caters to low end users than the intelligent choice is to target that demographic. Would a manufacturer selling a $100k instrument be highly concerned about hobbyists? Porbably not, because very few if any instruments will likely be sold to hobbyists.

Will hobbyists be buying a loaded RTB2K at $8k? Very unlikely, has anyone here griping done that? I'm guessing but maybe R&S gave these away for $2k to see what people who could afford them thought. Maybe they thought that students in institutions would be using these and doing this would give them some insight. Maybe this will make a better overall instrument and maybe it won't.
I don't care what they do or why. If it doesn't work for me, I'll, as I have done, tell R&S what I think, if I can't live with it I'll sell it. What I won't do is grumble about how R&S doesn't care about end users, doesn't address concerns, etc. It's counter productive. Period!

"BTW I'm quite sure you use some open-source free software, not only tested but programmed for free by self-selected and highly non-professional people. Probably would fire those guys too if could "

I pay for most of my software. if, for example, my EDA program has bugs I contact tech support or the rep, if I constantly have unaddressed bugs I decide whether to keep it or evaluate other software. Investing time to learn "for free" software that easily could be abandoned for any number of reasons is in my view a bad idea and a waste of my energy and ,again, time.

The software I don't pay for is from manufacturers I trust, for example, I use Atmel Studio to program uCs.

[rsjsouza]

What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? 

It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.

mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).

Yes, good points and I agree.  But you've been here long enough to see that it's more than that for some people who seem to need to not only discuss the pros and cons of various scopes but who show up on every scope thread pushing their particular choice and criticizing all others.  It seems to be tribal in a way that is not true of other electronics topics on this forum.

I can attest to that - over the years attending this forum I see oscilloscope threads and electrical safety as the most contentious technical topics around here. I tend to see the best in people and attribute this to vigorous passion (and not commercial or other ulterior motive) that sometimes creates the conditions for ass horsery, but as you said certain folks take their passion to the next level and end up posting at Every. Single. Thread.

Now in my practice (dev management of some e-commerce stuff with ~100k active customers) these are 3 types of displeased clients:

- "silent quitter", he does not like something, but keeps it secret and eventually runs away, possibly to some other service with million other flaws. This is worst type of customer because I do not even know what to improve. Also customer will probably not be happy also (because other services do have million of other flaws).
- "tells once" customer, better but I'm not sure if he really needs stuff or just nice to have, requests go to the end of todo-list, implementation long time or never. Customer will probably not be happy.
- "active maniac" type, usually small companies. If does not get improvements asks several times. Loyal customers. Not only they do get what they want but greatly help to improve service. Usually I give them some "extra candy" for effort and requests may even get to "now" todo-list because it make my job easier and keep costs down because paid staff has less thinking to do.

I have seen many customers that somewhat fit into these types, but the lines are extremely blurred in my line of work. Since we can never do anything about #1 (nor even acknowledge their existence), out of these I can tell that #2 is the most common, but in my line of field we give the same priority to reports from both #2 and #3 as they may affect the product equally. Obviously the speed of implementation varies with the criticality of the issue reported and, if it is considered a new feature, it will be added on an over arching future release.

However, one aspect you are forgetting (and I think Robaroni somewhat pointed it out) is that you have to acknowledge (and be thankful, really) when folks report a bug or sometimes create a test case to reproduce it, since they are giving away their time to do it - regardless if they are #2 or #3. Obviously that I don't know what your field is, but I suspect that you may be creating many #1 customers if you keep lowering the priority of your #2 customer requests.

[MrW0lf]

Obviously that I don't know what your field is, but I suspect that you may be creating many #1 customers if you keep lowering the priority of your #2 customer requests.

"Lowering priority" goes only for feature requests that I (as system architect) do not find important or even reasonable. However if #3 types actively demand might acknowledge that they know their business / needs better and shall get what they want.
I'n T&M field can imagine how hard time some oldschool pros have with trend towards touchscreens But eventually one succumbs to public demand. But hey, pros can still secretly implement mouse-support

[Robaroni]

I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?

Besides that there are lots of people on this forum which are involved in making test equipment purchase decissions and/or giving advice on what to buy.

OK, I give you advice to buy a RTB2K, maybe I'm even an expert. Does that mean it's good advice for you specifically? What if you buy it and think it's the worst scope you ever bought? What's your recourse, go back to the person who gave the advice? What's that going to do for you?


Here's what you guys should do:

Get 50 people in a room and try to please every one of them. Tell me how that works out for you.

[Robaroni]

If I was your boss I'd probably fire you for what you just said!

Oh, c'mon...

Just because you don't share someone's values does not mean you are right and the other guy is wrong. Also, he is from another domain ("dev management of some e-commerce stuff").

PS don't want to play "internet police", just don't like stupid offensive claims "I'd fire you! No, I'd fire you first!". Okay, I'm playing it 

There's a reason I said that. He attempted to add weight to his opinion by stating his 'credentials', I used that statement to deflate that. If you have something to say than say it, if you need to tell me who you are means that what you have to say probably won't stand on its own merits.

[MrW0lf]

if you need to tell me who you are means that what you have to say probably won't stand on its own merits.

Says "Retired EE"

[Robaroni]

if you need to tell me who you are means that what you have to say probably won't stand on its own merits.

Says "Retired EE"

A retired guy who calls himself "Robaroni" with a picture of his cat who never once said, "I'm an EE ......"

Give me something to work with here!

You get the question too. Do you own the RTB2K? Can you give me the model number of a mouse that works with this scope that you personally use so I can test it to see if it works for me?

I didn't think so.

[kwass]

Hi folks,

as promised two days ago, I had a short talk with the responsible product manager of the RTB. The next FW release will take place end of October this year. He told me, that our plan is three FW releases per year. The major focus off this next release is bug fixing.

I hope this helps

Markus

Thank you for the update!

[Hydron]

Thanks from me too.

Any further news on schedules/plans for updates will always be welcome. I'll also send through any bugs i find through to the R&S contact I've been given (nothing I have found is major, and most have already been sent into R&S).

Please take the comments I have made regarding frustrations and annoyances as my personal feedback on what I think could improve the instrument for myself and potential future customers. In general I think R&S have done a great job with this scope - it offers things others don't (e.g. 10 bit, big screen) and is fantastic compared to the Rigol and Tektronix scopes I have used in the past.

[mtdoc]

Yes - danke for the info.  Any and all communication appreciated!

I'll look forward to the triannual FW updates.  In the meantime I'm thoroughly enjoying this excellent scope.