new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[edavid]

Okay, thanks for the clarification, I stand corrected but that doesn't change the fact that their tech dept. doesn't have schematics AND probably never has AND they don't have service manuals AND they won't even tell me if the encoder drives a chip on the same board AND they won't even sell me a part if it does!

AND you refuse to run the encoder test so you can find out if you even have an encoder problem 

[Robaroni]

It's an on/off switch to change for fine/coarse and it was the first thing I tested!

Which of course doesn't change one thing I said in my last post.

AND now I have to put it under a microscope and trace the lines but since I found a work around, as annoying as it is, I may not get to for awhile. AND, of course, I still don't know if the service manual does show anything about the horizontal fine/coarse in it because..... wait for it  --- I don't have a service manual!

[chicken]

The fan on my RTB2004 sounds like it's on the way out. Does anyone have experience with replacing the fan?

Based on the teardown by mikeselectricstuff, the original fan is a Sunon HA80251V4-1000U-G99. I could only find HA80251V4-1000U-A99 in stock, where the suffix A99 is "AutoRestart", and G99 is "AutoRestart and F type (3rd wire)". There's also an R type option (F99).

Octopart suggested CUI CFM-8025V-120-204-20 as equivalent part. The "20" at the end is for "tachometer signal".

Any ideas whether "F type" and "tachometer" are the same?

Are there other recommended replacement fans?

[alonsojar]

I did some tests with a Noctua NF-A8 FLX fan that should be compatible with the sunon stock fan, in my case looking for more silent (yes, I'm one of these noise phobics).
You can see some comments here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtb2004-noctua-fan-questionsfeedback/msg5001883/#msg5001883

In brief, the fan was working well, but for any reason it runs a bit faster that the sunon in the same conditions, and at the end it was noisier unless you place some resistor in series to slow it, so I left the original one.
Someone has reported here that newer manufactured Rtb2000 are less noisy, and maybe they have another fan model (for instance R&S uses ebm-papst in other stuff).
It should be good if anyone can share any other experience regarding this subject. Let us know the result if you replace the fan...

J. Alonso

[skander36]

@alonsojar, personally I consider this scope the most silent device(with fan) I ever had.
You can say that it sleep on the table or his case is squeaky but not that is noisy. But perception is a subjective matter and sound are not making exception. Maybe you are more sensible to some kind of noise.
I am more disturbed by the noise of the laptop fan or the hum of the DMM6500 but not by this scope because his noise has been balanced (it is not too high and not too low).

[alonsojar]

Hi skander36
Thank you for your feedback. I'm not particularly complaining about the scope noise, in general my laptop (in fact an intel Nuc 11) is more silent than the scope unless I hit the cpu, but it's never close to be really disturbing.
I was doing some test because it's really easy to replace the fan and I was thinking that a Noctua will perform better regarding noise that the Sunon that was unknown brand for me. Since it was not the case, I forgot the idea and kept on the safe way.
Cheers

[Robaroni]

I'm a stickler for noise, I sold an Agilent meter because of noise.

I heard people complain about this but it doesn't bother me at all even after being on all day.

[Martin72]

My (former) SDS2504X HD was "dead" in terms of noise, even with the original fan.
There is simply nothing like an active fan controller, but apparently this is only possible above a certain price range.

[skander36]

...
There is simply nothing like an active fan controller, but apparently this is only possible above a certain price range.

 I dont think that the reason for an active fan controler is the price. Even in the cheapest oscilloscop there are more complicated circuts than an temp controler, which is so simple that simply its cost doesn't matter. I think that the reason for most fans are running at that speed is that  the device has need of that airflow which the fan is assuring at that speed.

[Martin72]

Then you could install the actually not expensive control system everywhere and, depending on the infrastructure, the fans would turn up to full speed faster than elsewhere.
Or otherwise, to follow the logic, you could have installed a weaker fan instead of a controller if the components don't get as warm.
In mass production, I look at every cent of material, especially if I have to offer the product at a low price due to market conditions.
In the price range where the RTB series is at home, there is a little more to it, so you can be "generous" and offer customers something for their ears.

[2N3055]

There is another, overseen fact why RTB2000 is very silent. It is not very powerful scope, processing power wise. It is quite simple scope, and R&S did excellent low power design, in a fairly large, nicely airy case.
Combine that with nice fan running low RPM and you have a winner.

It is all about power. Siglent SDS2000XHD is even more quiet than RTB, for instance, but SDS3000X HD in same case is not as silent as SDS2000X HD. Still good but not as silent as SDS2000XHD.

Same as RTM3000 is not as silent as RTB2000. More power.

[maxspb69]

Scope with "little processing power” that has real-time digital filters in math, unlike the “more powerful” SDS2000x+ which does not have them due to lack of processing power. 

[2N3055]

Scope with "little processing power” that has real-time digital filters in math, unlike the “more powerful” SDS2000x+ which does not have them due to lack of processing power. 

Who mentioned SDS2000x+ ?

I was comparing how R&S RTB2000 is quieter than RTM3000 in a similar case, and gave a data point how also with other manufacturers, for example  Siglent, it is all about power density: If you stick more power in same case it is going to be hotter and more air evacuation is needed.

And, yes, RTB2000 has very limited processing power. It also have only 10 MPts of memory per channels, measurements work from decimated data sub buffer and FFT is only 128kPts.
It is literally simplest scope R&S makes, if we exclude old inherited Hameg 1000 series.

And I was praising R&S product: very quiet, very good low power design, good thermal design, a winner... All compliments, not a single bad word.

Fact that it is literally 2nd from the bottom product in R&S scope gamut is just a fact. And instead of R&S making cheap crap, they chose to make product that is relatively simple but good quality.
And it being simple is not even a bad thing. No need to have complexity if you don't need it. For some use scenarios simple is a plus, not a minus.

And price vise, if you are going to compare, fair is to compare with other scopes price for price...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

Best,

[maxspb69]

In fact, having both scopes (RTB2000 & SDS2000X+), I most often use the RTB, because its screen and user interface (responsiveness and thoughtfulness) are significantly better than  SDS2000X+.  And in 99.9% of cases its functionality is sufficient to complete the assigned tasks. How often does someone need 200 megapoints of memory? Or the most accurate FFT using 2M samples?

  But if I need something that is not in the RTB, then the SDS2000X+ comes into play, which can do much more, but is not so convenient to use and has a laggy, unresponsive user interface (if you use hardware controls. There are no such problems when using touch screen).

The RTB2000 is quite an old, simple, but very thoughtful and very well made device. Although its price with a full package of options is very high compared to Chinese oscilloscopes, of course.

[skander36]

...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

Best,

Which 7200E?
RTB2K-COM2

P.S. Remarkable is that they have "student offers" which make this wise equipment accessible to a price comparable to chinese offers.

[pdenisowski]

And it being simple is not even a bad thing. No need to have complexity if you don't need it. For some use scenarios simple is a plus, not a minus.

Despite having access to our entire scope portfolio, for several years I actually used an RTB for my everyday scope needs: it's small, quiet, and simple. 

I now mostly use an MXO4 (in part because I'm developing content around it), but for basic "poking around and looking at signals," the RTB was more than sufficient.

(I also made some "Getting Started with the RTB2000" videos for the Test and Measurement Fundamentals Playlist on the R&S YouTube channel)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8

[skander36]

I'm use it often because:
- Start fast (9.9 s)
- Is silent
- Fast results (Quick Meas button) for usual measurements (quick check of a waveform)

[2N3055]

...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

Best,

Which 7200E?
RTB2K-COM2

P.S. Remarkable is that they have "student offers" which make this wise equipment accessible to a price comparable to chinese offers.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB-BNDL.html

3600 +VAT.

[2N3055]

In fact, having both scopes (RTB2000 & SDS2000X+), I most often use the RTB, because its screen and user interface (responsiveness and thoughtfulness) are significantly better than  SDS2000X+.  And in 99.9% of cases its functionality is sufficient to complete the assigned tasks. How often does someone need 200 megapoints of memory? Or the most accurate FFT using 2M samples?

  But if I need something that is not in the RTB, then the SDS2000X+ comes into play, which can do much more, but is not so convenient to use and has a laggy, unresponsive user interface (if you use hardware controls. There are no such problems when using touch screen).

The RTB2000 is quite an old, simple, but very thoughtful and very well made device. Although its price with a full package of options is very high compared to Chinese oscilloscopes, of course.

That is exactly as I said.
But if you insist to compare to Siglent, today you would get SDS2000X HD for RTB2000 money...
That would be the one to compare to, price vise.
And that is another level altogether.

[pdenisowski]

I'm use it often because:
- Start fast (9.9 s)

When we first released the RTB, we had a "power of 10" marketing campaign that talked about its features (10 bit, 10 Msa, 10.1" screen) which included its 10 second boot time

[nctnico]

And it being simple is not even a bad thing. No need to have complexity if you don't need it. For some use scenarios simple is a plus, not a minus.

Despite having access to our entire scope portfolio, for several years I actually used an RTB for my everyday scope needs: it's small, quiet, and simple. 

I now mostly use an MXO4 (in part because I'm developing content around it), but for basic "poking around and looking at signals," the RTB was more than sufficient.

It depends a bit on what you are doing; I wouldn't call the RTB2004 simple. For embedded development the protocol decoding and integration of digital channels is super useful and well implemented.

[EEVblog]

And price vise, if you are going to compare, fair is to compare with other scopes price for price...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

I wonder what would happen if R&S slashed the price of the RTB2000 to entry level pricing?
They could probably do it given the NRE would be well and truly taken care of.
That would leave the RTC1000 flaping in the breeze of course, but still, it would be interesting.
As others have said, it's a very capable and nice scope.

[mikeselectricstuff]

And price vise, if you are going to compare, fair is to compare with other scopes price for price...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

I wonder what would happen if R&S slashed the price of the RTB2000 to entry level pricing?
They could probably do it given the NRE would be well and truly taken care of.
That would leave the RTC1000 flaping in the breeze of course, but still, it would be interesting.
As others have said, it's a very capable and nice scope.

Just a  shame the UI is so sluggish, more so that the RTM is no better.

[electronix27]

Hi everyone
I purchased my RTB2004 COM4 late December 2019.  After about 1 1/2 to 2 years, I had 2 probe cables rolled up next to my scope.  When I picked them up to use, I noticed a small puddle under the cables, wondered what I spilled there.  Turns out the cables leaked this spot on my bench, which is vinal covered.  I wiped them down but this continued.  About a year ago I packed up my gear for a move and just recently pulled out my scope.  When I removed the probe cables found this happed again.  My warranty is past, that's my fault, but decided to call Rhode and Schwarz support to inquire about this.  No one there had ever heard of this(came with RT-ZP03).  Support took some information but I doubt it will lead anywhere.  I've never had this sort of problem with any other probes or cables for any device or equipment.  Has anyone else ever experienced this, silicon leaking?  While the probes seem to function fine, not too crazy about the situation.  Can anyone recommend a different set of probes that would work well with this scope.  Other than that, not perfect scope by any means, non are, but I like it otherwise, suits my needs.

Appreciate your thoughts
Thanks much

[skander36]

I have RTB2002 for about 3 years and his 2 RT-ZP03 never show any sign of any leakage. They are perfectly dry. Maybe external causes? Proximity with some flowers, herbal decorations?