new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[Darkover]

Ups, I missed two pictures

[Sorama]

You still have a lot of cleaning to do.
I would not call that pcb clean or ready.

[Robaroni]

I've done these types of removals, very difficult. From what I can see, I think you did a good job. The trouble is that it's hard to determine if the board is undermined, especially on multi layer boards which I would expect this board to be.

One thing I would have done was remove the components within ~15mm surrounding the chip to prevent them from being compromised, this board took a lot of heat. Again, the culprit is the center pad, the board is designed specifically to pull heat away from the center pad and, lets face it, these chips are not designed to be removed. Manufacturers change boards for a reason, they don't change these types of chips.

If we were talking something the size of a TSOP without a center pad it would be doable but once you get to center pads you run into real heat problems, especially with the new solders. Even with a TSOP I would cut all the pins carefully at the chip and then clean up the remains. I use a Hakko FR-410 which I think is one of the best stations around but I still clean up IC's with Techspray Prowick 3mm desoldering tape and a Weller WX2 with a WXMP iron. Iron temp depends on solder type, what you can do is increase the heat till the wick works. Always remember, heat is your enemy, those small pads lift right off, even on the best quality boards. When these boards are made in heat ovens board houses know exactly the solder temperature and composite, the board materials and the chips are in vacuum bags with humidity indicators. The complete board is heated uniformly and to a precise temperature. That's what you're up against and why I would try to mill the chip off if I attempted to fix this board.

[hotze]

If the component is going to be scrapped anyway, it might be worth trying a very hot soldering iron and putting a large blob of solder directly on the package so you only heat the part itself. This has always worked well for me with smaller components.

[Hydron]

If the component is going to be scrapped anyway, it might be worth trying a very hot soldering iron and putting a large blob of solder directly on the package so you only heat the part itself. This has always worked well for me with smaller components.

+1 - this is exactly what I'm planning to do on mine (along with pre-heat from the bottom, and probably also some hot air from the top if needed)!

[Darkover]

+1 - this is exactly what I'm planning to do on mine (along with pre-heat from the bottom, and probably also some hot air from the top if needed)!

I would not bet on that. 

I used a Weller WSP80 with a very big soldering tip at 370°C and touched the exposed pad, it just glued on the tap without preheating. 

Before I used the Pyropen I destroyed the housing of the chip, you have probably seen the picture of that. Inside the chip
there are some huge metal stuctures. (looks like a copper bar) I touched them also with a huge tip with many solder on it and preheating, in the
hope to remove the chip, this does'nt work. I dont think the plastic housing will transport the heat good enought. Even with the pyropen it
was on the edge. In case you did not know the Weller pyropen, it is MUCH more powerfull than a Weller HAP200 or the chinease 858D. It has
enought energy to toast a normal pcb in seconds when on full power. (what I used)

And on the last picture I posted, you can probably see left from the chip the 2/4 pads for the capacitors. I tried to clean the two  ground pad
with a huge tip and solder wick, it did not work well! (you can see that on the picture)

But your mileage may vary. 

I have experience with multilayer boards with one or more layer of copper, because of developing high frequency pcb, but this board is made in coldest of Zandrus seven frozen hells!

Olaf

[Darkover]

I just read the datasheet of the Alpha OM-520

https://lenz.com.pl/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/PA_OM520_TB_ENG_W2.pdf

They said:

All components used with ALPHA® OM-520 must be lead-free to eliminate the formation of tin/lead/bismuth intermetallic
which has a melting point under 100ºC.


Perhaps it is possible to do a mixture between OM-520 and some lead paste to have a solder paste that works
at 120-140°C. I think I have to try this. 

She got hoodooed, voodooed
She finally got released
She stirred huge cauldrons
With toads and henbane and…  (Bel Canto)

Olaf

[Darkover]

I did some test....

As expected the OM520 (Wismut solder) has a bad wetting behavior compared to normal solder, sigh.
I think now the way to go is to use OM-520 on the exposed pad and lead paste on the normal pads.

I also glad about the two ground connection for the capacitor. Perhaps I will put some lead free solder there
to have a temperature indicator that show me that the OM-520 below the LMH is surely melted.

Probably I will give it a try on weekend.

But what we realy need is a 3D-microscope with an overlay picture of a infrared camera. Someone should invent this!

Olaf

[Darkover]

Perhaps someone helps this picture.... (I wrote the signal names on the PCB)

BTW: I wonder if it is probably a good idea to install a 50R switch/resistor at least on one channel if everthing is working again, because I am realy pissed of by R&S that they think they can sell a 300Mhz scope without internal 50R.

Olaf

[Robaroni]

Perhaps someone helps this picture.... (I wrote the signal names on the PCB)

BTW: I wonder if it is probably a good idea to install a 50R switch/resistor at least on one channel if everthing is working again, because I am realy pissed of by R&S that they think they can sell a 300Mhz scope without internal 50R.

Olaf

Olaf, thanks for all the information.

If I was doing this job I would design a chip adapter, place the chip on it, ovenize it and place it on the board. I'll do a small drawing so everyone can see what I'm talking about.

Rob

[Robaroni]

I'm thinking something like this that I would adapt to my board. This way you're not stuck with one chance of getting it right:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/chip-quik-inc/IPC0006/5014791?gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20232005509&gbraid=0AAAAADrbLljvnSjoz68vTDhu5Uhhdwq8m&gclid=CjwKCAiA2svIBhB-EiwARWDPjhqobmoQZjKZoageK-LtFi5oTT7ss8Y8Ee8VBRFw1GjAknTJOVi_RhoCMPQQAvD_BwE

You might even be able to design an adapter from this to your board with pinouts to make it easier.

[Darkover]

If I was doing this job I would design a chip adapter, place the chip on it, ovenize it and place it on the board. I'll do a small drawing so everyone can see what I'm talking about.

I understand you without a drawing, because I had some idea in this direction, too!

However, this chip needs a good amount of board space for cooling and it is at least a 300Mhz circuit in a measuring device. It is very easy to make it worse.

But, something like this is probably the second idea in case the first one will not work......

But if I think a longer time about it, perhaps a alucore PCB, correct bended to fit in the copper box, one screw, very short wire to the pad... 
I have to think about it! The benefit is of course it is easier to replace in future.
 
Olaf

[Robaroni]

Good points, the freq is certainly something you have to account for.

It's one of those things you have play with, if you look at the data sheet TI gives a suggested PCB layout that might help:


I still think I'd want a way to change it out if it blew again.

[Darkover]

I still think I'd want a way to change it out if it blew again.

Of course, that is a good motivation.

When I look on the board with my huge pictures or with my microscope, many things are perhaps possible. But when I look with my eyes on this small device it is hard to believe that it is possible to get rid of the power on something so small without using the original position on the pcb.

BTW: Below the LMH6518 there is a SOT23 with marking PPs, that is BAR64-04 Pindiode 0.17pF/6Ghz to protect the input of the LMH. Below of this, in the input line are two SOT23-6 with marking 31R, internet said that are MUN5331. Hard to believe on this position. Someone with a better idea?

Olaf

[balun]

Rohde & Schwarz is blocking the firmware download. :-(
Could someone who has already downloaded the firmware v3 please share it with those who can't download it themselves?
I need the firmware for RTB2004.
Thank you in advance!
---
Rajko

[alonsojar]

Rohde & Schwarz is blocking the firmware download. :-(
Could someone who has already downloaded the firmware v3 please share it with those who can't download it themselves?
I need the firmware for RTB2004.
Thank you in advance!
---
Rajko

PM sent
J. Alonso

[Robaroni]

Why are they blocking firmware?

[balun]

Why are they blocking firmware?

On February 28, 2025, I received the following information from the Customer Support Center:

"Our business processes are structured as follows: we do not serve private customers directly, but work exclusively with corporate clients in the B2B sector.
This is evident, among other things, from the fact that it is not possible for you as a private customer to purchase a Rohde & Schwarz product directly from us.
We serve the private customer business through our distribution partners, who operate in both the B2B and B2C sectors.
This means that our distribution partners offer you the opportunity to obtain the information you need in addition to purchasing our measurement technology products.
We are also in discussions with our distribution partners regarding firmware procurement to find a suitable solution.
I ask for your continued patience."

---
Rajko

[Hydron]

Except the distributors usually don't fucking bother making it available (or might have some ancient FW only) despite what R&S says, and what happens when the product goes EOL and disappears from distribution? No manuals, FW etc?

Also what do you do when it dies and your distributor no longer exists (case I have) - can you get any support at all? (Assuming you don't get scared off by insane R&S repair costs). It's worth noting that consumer laws in some countries prevent the manufacturer from contracting out responsibility like this, especially retrospectively, even when bought via a re-seller.

If you hide the manual so I can't read it pre-purchase without jumping through hoops to prove I'm a "professional buyer" I will never buy the product, either professionally (where I have proper budget) or personally.

[Robaroni]

Except the distributors usually don't fucking bother making it available (or might have some ancient FW only) despite what R&S says, and what happens when the product goes EOL and disappears from distribution? No manuals, FW etc?

Also what do you do when it dies and your distributor no longer exists (case I have) - can you get any support at all? (Assuming you don't get scared off by insane R&S repair costs). It's worth noting that consumer laws in some countries prevent the manufacturer from contracting out responsibility like this, especially retrospectively, even when bought via a re-seller.

If you hide the manual so I can't read it pre-purchase without jumping through hoops to prove I'm a "professional buyer" I will never buy the product, either professionally (where I have proper budget) or personally.

Yep!

[Darkover]

I repaired my scope!

But I made a new thread about it, because I think it is to much for this thread.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/repair-of-rs-rtb2004-with-offsetprobem-of-toasted-lmh6518/

Olaf

[ovilu]

Can someone please share v.03 of the RTB2004 firmware?
I'd like to update my scope...

THANKS!

[nctnico]

If you hide the manual so I can't read it pre-purchase without jumping through hoops to prove I'm a "professional buyer" I will never buy the product, either professionally (where I have proper budget) or personally.

I have to agree with this. In most of the cases I look for equipment professionally. When I need to jump through hoops to get to a manual, I skip to the competitor who has the information readily accessible online. I really don't have the time to waste on dealing with registrations and waiting for the registration to be accepted. By the time the registration goes through, the moment of the purchase decission has passed a long time ago. R&S has nice gear, but not that special.

[pdenisowski]

Talking about contests here, this new R&S scope at least wins one price: Ugliest scope of the century

Ouch!  That hurts!    We actually get a lot of nice feedback about the scope form factor / physical design.

All employer-required cheerleading / competition-bashing aside:  the Keysight HD3 is much uglier than any of our scopes 

[tooki]

Talking about contests here, this new R&S scope at least wins one price: Ugliest scope of the century

Ouch!  That hurts!    We actually get a lot of nice feedback about the scope form factor / physical design.

All employer-required cheerleading / competition-bashing aside:  the Keysight HD3 is much uglier than any of our scopes 

Well, pascal_sweden has had nearly 9 years to come to terms with the design since he made that comment, perhaps his stance has softened.