Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!

[bsgd]

My DSOX2024 just had the same problem.  I'm anxiously watching this thread to see what the outcome is.

Really? This actually worries me since this could be a somewhat common problem... anyone else whatching this with the same problem?

$1900 sounds like the flat-rate replace-instead-of-repair option. Anyway, I'm sure Daniel will get to the bottom of it. He's proven quite adept at juggling tricky situations.

Keysight says they will not replace the instrument, but a 'main part inside which is defective'. I suppose they are refering to the main board.

I thought that the cost for Skype calls was based on the destination country/network, not the originating country?

At least my costs are always the same regardless if I'm in Thailand, Malaysia, UAE or Sweden when making an outbound call.

I dont know about that, what I do know is they they somehow base the price on your profile, since Im always charged in BRL. Anyway, regardless of that, if needed, I WILL call them.

Keysight Technologies
InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
Data Sheet

Included standard with oscilloscope:  Standard 5-year warranty 1

1. Applies to all orders on or after 1/1/2013.

It reads there in global data sheet. This do not differentiate any country. It is factory warranty.

Note this small text in page 20 bottom  in data sheet.
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6618EN.pdf?id=2002854

What was warranty promise when originally  purchased, it was perhaps different.

To be honest, I do not remember what Farnell promised at the time...

Isnt equipment failure covered by your insurance?

No...

Was it actually a Keysight facility or a 3rd party?

That's worth researching a bit. Lots of manufacturers don't have an actual presence in certain countries. Instead, they have an agreement with a local distributor. Sometimes they're difficult to spot because they are authorized to use the brand name, acting like they are the real manufacturer.

An example is Nikon, with an absolute disgrace of a distributor in Spain. So, if you purchase a pair of Nikon binoculars in the UK (which is part of the EU as well) you are covered by a ten year warranty. If you buy it in Spain, the standard two year warranty, with the added "plus" of an extremely awful service centres.

Of course there are two approaches to warranty by manufacturers. Some use it as an excuse to decline responsability for manufacturing defects whenever they can. Others are honest and, despite an expired warranty, will fix an obvious manufacturing defect regardless and apologise regardless of the warranty status. I saw this in a case with Sony in the 90's, for example.

Anyway, as Daniel from Keysight has asked for details I would let him work in peace. The fact that he is visible as a Keysight representative means that his presence is endorsed by the company itself, and that they value the direct interaction with their users in this forum.

Unless something goes terribly wrong, I am sure that you can rest assured.

I do not know whether it is actually Keysight or some hard to distinguish 3rd party. They do have @keysight.com e-mail addresses and signatures and call themselves Keysight Brazil...
Yes, I will let Daniel work and try to help. My expectations are pretty high that he might somehow help me in this case. At least someone heard about my case and thought it was not right. Keysight Brazil kept on saying there was nothing wrong and nothing they could do about, and thats what made me so angry!

I don't think Brazilian consumer laws are that bad...

What relevance does consumer law have to the purchase of industrial equipment, especially when it has been used for industrial applications?

Well I suppose here both of them are treated as consumers, no matter whether its a company or a person? Is it different in your country? I just looked and our law says: 'A consumer is both a person or a company who pays for goods to another company as the final recipient of that good'.

So yes, I am a consumer in this case according to our law.

[bsgd]

$1900 sounds like the flat-rate replace-instead-of-repair option. Anyway, I'm sure Daniel will get to the bottom of it. He's proven quite adept at juggling tricky situations.

Apparently not. 

My DSOX2024 just had the same problem.  I'm anxiously watching this thread to see what the outcome is.

Your thread need be linked in this one:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/

In that thread member georgd wisely suggests the community goes about getting some ROM dumps in case there's some systemic failure of these models. 

New thread? 

This is EXACTLY the first problem I had with my DSOX2024A when all this nightmare started!!! It wouldn't boot and went off to Keysight. Then I got a brand new replacement with the PLL error, which they also charged me around 2.000 dollars to fix, pretty much like what happened to the user in that thread you pointed me. This doesnt sound good to me, really...

Now I see other people had the same problem, either the boot problem and the PLL problem! Oh NO again!!

[coppice]

I don't think Brazilian consumer laws are that bad...

What relevance does consumer law have to the purchase of industrial equipment, especially when it has been used for industrial applications?

Well I suppose here both of them are treated as consumers, no matter whether its a company or a person? Is it different in your country? I just looked and our law says: 'A consumer is both a person or a company who pays for goods to another company as the final recipient of that good'.

So yes, I am a consumer in this case according to our law.

The use of equipment in business is very different from domestic use, and the laws in most countries accept that. A TV used 24 hours a day in a business display application is unlikely to get through the 5 years LG gave as the warranty for the same TV used in our lounge. They say the warranty relates to domestic use, and the laws in countries I have experienced accept that.

[Robaroni]

This is funny, I'm souring on Keysight also. I have several instruments from them and go back to the days of HP bullet proof instruments like the 34401A and before that.
On another thread here I just complained about their new policy of not selling parts down to the component level. It's ridiculous to sell a complete display board for over $1k when the display cost is 1/10 of that.

I'm starting to look into other instrument vendors now. We've always used Tek scopes and they have been exceptional with respect to durability, so has Fluke.
 WE have the 34465A 6-1/2 digit meter we bought a few months ago but now that we tried to buy the display for our 53132A and met with Keysight's, "you can just buy the display" we're leery. Too bad it's a superb instrument.

Hey lots of fish in the sea and I'm liking what I see from MTI and R & S these days.
Rob

[bsgd]

I don't think Brazilian consumer laws are that bad...

What relevance does consumer law have to the purchase of industrial equipment, especially when it has been used for industrial applications?

Well I suppose here both of them are treated as consumers, no matter whether its a company or a person? Is it different in your country? I just looked and our law says: 'A consumer is both a person or a company who pays for goods to another company as the final recipient of that good'.

So yes, I am a consumer in this case according to our law.

The use of equipment in business is very different from domestic use, and the laws in most countries accept that. A TV used 24 hours a day in a business display application is unlikely to get through the 5 years LG gave as the warranty for the same TV used in our lounge. They say the warranty relates to domestic use, and the laws in countries I have experienced accept that.

Well Im sure we do not discern that here. If a TV comes with a 5 years warranty and a company has a problem with it during this 5 year peiord, LG has to replac that. They do not say the warranty is only valid if the TV is used for no more than 1 hour a day...

Anyway, this scope was barely used as it was kept as a backup. The first time it went for repair it had less than 20 hours of use and the second time, less than 10 hours.

[bsgd]

This is funny, I'm souring on Keysight also. I have several instruments from them and go back to the days of HP bullet proof instruments like the 34401A and before that.
On another thread here I just complained about their new policy of not selling parts down to the component level. It's ridiculous to sell a complete display board for over $1k when the display cost is 1/10 of that.

I'm starting to look into other instrument vendors now. We've always used Tek scopes and they have been exceptional with respect to durability, so has Fluke.
 WE have the 34465A 6-1/2 digit meter we bought a few months ago but now that we tried to buy the display for our 53132A and met with Keysight's, "you can just buy the display" we're leery. Too bad it's a superb instrument.

Hey lots of fish in the sea and I'm liking what I see from MTI and R & S these days.
Rob

I still have lots of HP era test equipment and they are flawless. I even have tube test equipment from HP which still work and are still within spec after 60 years!!!!

I know Tektronix scopes are a bit outdated spec wise and do not have the newer functionality Keysight has, but they are built to last a lifetime. Believe it or not, I still have an original Tektronix 455 which works perfectly fine.

[alank2]

Is part of this problem just that things are not made as well as they used to - no matter who manufactures them?  Seriously, can you say any manufacturer regardless of cost can produce a product today that has the same longevity of many of the instruments that did well from decades ago.  Seems to me that so many companies have hidden behind their "great" names, but have cheapened their products.  If they fall short in the quality/reliability department, certainly the pricier ones need to make up for it in the warranty/repair department.  When that starts to slip too you have to wonder if they were worth their coin in the first place.

[coppice]

Is part of this problem just that things are not made as well as they used to - no matter who manufactures them?  Seriously, can you say any manufacturer regardless of cost can produce a product today that has the same longevity of many of the instruments that did well from decades ago.  Seems to me that so many companies have hidden behind their "great" names, but have cheapened their products.  If they fall short in the quality/reliability department, certainly the pricier ones need to make up for it in the warranty/repair department.  When that starts to slip too you have to wonder if they were worth their coin in the first place.

In the 1970s a basic 200MHz scope from HP or Tek cost an entire year's salary. If enough people were happy to pay an entire years salary for one today, I'm sure Keysight could make an extremely robust basic 200MHz scope.

The 70s scopes failed quite frequently, and only had a 90 days warranty. They were very repairable, which is why quite a few are still running today, but you did end up with a lot of repairs you needed to pay for.

[rf-loop]

Keysight Technologies
InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
Data Sheet

Included standard with oscilloscope:  Standard 5-year warranty 1

1. Applies to all orders on or after 1/1/2013.

It reads there in global data sheet. This do not differentiate any country. It is factory warranty.

Note this small text in page 20 bottom  in data sheet.
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6618EN.pdf?id=2002854

What was warranty promise when originally  purchased, it was perhaps different.

To be honest, I do not remember what Farnell promised at the time...

Imho, It is not what Farnell promise. It is what Agilent (Keysight) promise.
Keysight (agilent) is responsible about what they promise. (it is manufacturer global promise stated in product data sheet and they are responsible what they promise. Not Farnell. Farnell is responsible if they promise something more but farnell can not reduce what manufacturer promise or if can then all is totally tumbled.)

[TheAmmoniacal]

Sad to hear your bad experience with Keysight, they've been nothing but fantastic to me (and I am currently saving some money to get a Keysight handheld scope).

I hope you'll get this sorted.

[bson]

I don't think I've ever had anyone, ever, just repair something without contacting me with an estimate first.  This is good when it's close to the replacement value, but can be annoying when it's a $5 part.  After all, when hiring someone to perform service the price is part of the agreement; if we didn't have an agreement I'd flat out refuse to pay it.  By corollary, nobody in their right mind starts work until the terms are settled.

[Robaroni]

We used Tek scopes extensively through all my career going back to the late 60's. The stuff was just indestructible! I still have a 465B kicking around here. So I buy Tek. Our 2024B might be slow bringing up bus translations but it always works, so did the digital Tek before it.

I thought Keysight claimed some crazy MTBF for their scopes?

I have to say we really love the 34465 meter and we still have an 33220 AWG that hasn't given us trouble but it's from the Agilent days.

When did HP go from HP to Agilent to Keysight? I can't keep track anymore!

Rob

[nctnico]

Is part of this problem just that things are not made as well as they used to - no matter who manufactures them?  Seriously, can you say any manufacturer regardless of cost can produce a product today that has the same longevity of many of the instruments that did well from decades ago.

IMHO the older test equipment is just as prone to failure as more recent test equipment. The major difference is that the more modern test equipment consists of far fewer components and doesn't run so hot so there is actually a lot less which can go wrong. You could argue a BGA is hard to replace but those kind of components don't fail. It is still power electronics and electrolytics which are the weak points at the component level. Newer equipment does add firmware problems to the equation.

[Robaroni]

I'm not sure, linear supplies weren't that bad, they used less parts than SMPS and all those years of working out SMPS capacitance, and my favorite problem cap the tantalum. If you just go from the parts count, the more parts, the greater chance of failure - SMPS loses.
We went to SMPS, not because it was better but because it was cheaper. Give me a three terminal regulator in a linear supply, easy to fix, less parts and pretty robust.

Rob

[coppice]

I'm not sure, linear supplies weren't that bad, they used less parts than SMPS and all those years of working out SMPS capacitance, and my favorite problem cap the tantalum. If you just go from the parts count, the more parts, the greater chance of failure - SMPS loses.
We went to SMPS, not because it was better but because it was cheaper. Give me a three terminal regulator in a linear supply, easy to fix, less parts and pretty robust.

Rob

Linear supplies are fine if you can tolerate the size, weight, heat and loss of efficiency.

[Fungus]

Linear supplies are fine if you can tolerate the size, weight, heat and loss of efficiency.

What about all the high-voltage stuff in devices with CRTs? Plenty of things to fail there.

[zapta]

In the 1970s a basic 200MHz scope from HP or Tek cost an entire year's salary. If enough people were happy to pay an entire years salary for one today, I'm sure Keysight could make an extremely robust basic 200MHz scope.

If you compare to today's prices, you need to adjust to bandwidth inflation.

[bsgd]

Is part of this problem just that things are not made as well as they used to - no matter who manufactures them?  Seriously, can you say any manufacturer regardless of cost can produce a product today that has the same longevity of many of the instruments that did well from decades ago.  Seems to me that so many companies have hidden behind their "great" names, but have cheapened their products.  If they fall short in the quality/reliability department, certainly the pricier ones need to make up for it in the warranty/repair department.  When that starts to slip too you have to wonder if they were worth their coin in the first place.

I agree.

I don't think I've ever had anyone, ever, just repair something without contacting me with an estimate first.  This is good when it's close to the replacement value, but can be annoying when it's a $5 part.  After all, when hiring someone to perform service the price is part of the agreement; if we didn't have an agreement I'd flat out refuse to pay it.  By corollary, nobody in their right mind starts work until the terms are settled.

Just to make it clear, they did not fix the equipment yet, as far as I am aware. They just sent me a high price to fix something that they didnt fix while still under warranty.

Is part of this problem just that things are not made as well as they used to - no matter who manufactures them?  Seriously, can you say any manufacturer regardless of cost can produce a product today that has the same longevity of many of the instruments that did well from decades ago.

IMHO the older test equipment is just as prone to failure as more recent test equipment. The major difference is that the more modern test equipment consists of far fewer components and doesn't run so hot so there is actually a lot less which can go wrong. You could argue a BGA is hard to replace but those kind of components don't fail. It is still power electronics and electrolytics which are the weak points at the component level. Newer equipment does add firmware problems to the equation.

Even though my engineer side tends to agree with that, my experience tells me something different. And I'm not just talking about test equipment, but stuff in general. My 'new' refrigerator fails every two years, while we still have a very old one in a country house thats been running fine for 30+ years. This is just one example but I have dozens of others like this one.

[nctnico]

Nowadays it is just easier to buy cheap crap and yes some good brands entered into the race towards the bottom of the barrel and start selling crap but with some care you can still buy decent quality products (=lasts long with minor repairs due to wear).
My family has a long history of buying Miele washing machines so looking back at 50 to 60 years their washing machines do fail at different points over the various models but even the modern ones easely last 20 to 25 years with heavy use .

[Hydrawerk]

At school we have many Agilent 33220A AWGs and most of them have an erratic rotary encoder after 7 years or so.

[bsgd]

Nowadays it is just easier to buy cheap crap and yes some good brands entered into the race towards the bottom of the barrel and start selling crap but with some care you can still buy decent quality products (=lasts long with minor repairs due to wear).
My family has a long history of buying Miele washing machines so looking back at 50 to 60 years their washing machines do fail at different points over the various models but even the modern ones easely last 20 to 25 years with heavy use .

We dont have Miele here

Anyway, I guess in the old days if something failed, you could just buy the part that failed and easily repair de equipment. Nowadays you have to spend $500 on a board because of a single failed component that is hidden below 1 inch of epoxy. This is waht happened to my last washing machine and its probably whats going on with my Keysight Oscilloscope.

[Hydrawerk]

I thought Keysight claimed some crazy MTBF for their scopes?

They claim 250000 hours for DSOX3000T series. http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-0140EN.pdf?id=2545408
See page 36.

[skipjackrc4]

I thought Keysight claimed some crazy MTBF for their scopes?

They claim 250000 hours for DSOX3000T series. http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-0140EN.pdf?id=2545408
See page 36.

Well, that was off by about 4 orders of magnitude according to the OP...

[skipjackrc4]

There is a thread on the Keysight forums that mentions a potential fix for scopes with firmware >=2.39:  https://community.keysight.com/thread/24094?q=boot

Apparently, if you have the latest firmware and you get the blank screen of death, the scope may allow you to reload the firmware from USB.  My scope apparently has an earlier firmware revision (I don't remember what it is), so that wasn't an option.  Going from the Keysight forum thread, I recommend that everyone update their firmware to the latest version NOW so that you can potentially avoid having to send the scope to the manufacturer.

Since it's evidently possible to reload the firmware, it doesn't appear to be a hardware problem (at least not a permanent one).  Perhaps some type of EM/power line susceptibility that corrupts the firmware?

[marmad]

IMHO the older test equipment is just as prone to failure as more recent test equipment.

Do you honestly believe this? The number of man-hours/cost to design, test, manufacture, and market a device nowadays is exponentially lower than it was 40 years ago. Concepts like built-in obsolescence, product lines, market segmentation, etc, etc, developed hand-in-hand with solid-state devices over the last half-century. Because of these things, most manufacturers won't spend too much time thinking about - let alone caring about - how long things last outside of the warranty period + whatever they feel is a minimum.  Anecdotally, I rarely had equipment (or other device) failure happen 40 years ago, but I've seen it happen more and more often as the decades have passed (albeit, granted, with less and less disruption - i.e. it's cheaper and faster to replace things now).

My family has a long history of buying Miele washing machines so looking back at 50 to 60 years their washing machines do fail at different points over the various models but even the modern ones easely last 20 to 25 years with heavy use .

This is a bad comparison since washing machines are still - at their basic level - simple, heavy-duty mechanical devices. Ironically, even though nowadays most electronic-device manufacturers tend to be reluctant to part with schematics, etc, the advent of the Internet has made it easier to get your hands on service manuals for things like washing machines, etc. I've had the same Zanussi washer and dryer for over 25 years, and with the service manuals have managed to keep them running perfectly with the occasional replaced condensator, drain pump, belt, etc.