Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!

[alank2]

The chart says "at" the P/E cycles.  Is the retention better when there have been minimal P/E cycles?

[bsgd]

In my work, we have a DSOX2002A in my lab, a DSOX2014A in front lab and a MSOX2014A upstairs.
The MSOX have a little to no use (don't ask...) and after a while without being powered it had to go to repair at Keysight (was inside the warranty)... This could mean something.

I wonder what others gears could have this question about memory getting lost.

Other thing, I can't imagine to invest that much of money to just turn on once or twice a year... But this could be much more common than I think...

At least here in my case, this is a backup unit. Not having a scope could cost me MUCH more than keeping a spare, as long as it doesnt fail everytime I try to use it!

[bsgd]

This thing should rewrite itself every day if it cant retain data for 3 years!

It would have to be switched on to be able to do that to itself. 

This could be quite easy. I just saw a video about free energy on youtube! Keysight could take advantage of that for this kind of maintenance 

[bsgd]

Right now I'm considering to leave a Tektronix scope as backup and putting my Keysight's to use so they dont stay off for long.

That won't help you a tiny bit. This might help only with things like SSD because they rewrite themselves once in a while. Otherwise be it powered or not, doesn't make any difference at all.

So you are saying all Keysight DSOX series scopes will have a very short life, no matter what? 

can you read  :

I was just kidding my friend! At least I hope so!

But I do confess I'm quite worried about this issue. I'm starting to look at my Keysight scopes as a time bomb which will stop working anytime. This is a very serious issue and I think these problemas are just starting to appear as this units are starting to age. I bought mine just a year after they were released so I guess I was an early adopter!

[wraper]

Right now I'm considering to leave a Tektronix scope as backup and putting my Keysight's to use so they dont stay off for long.

That won't help you a tiny bit. This might help only with things like SSD because they rewrite themselves once in a while. Otherwise be it powered or not, doesn't make any difference at all.

So you are saying all Keysight DSOX series scopes will have a very short life, no matter what? 

can you read  :

I was just kidding my friend! At least I hope so!

But I do confess I'm quite worried about this issue. I'm starting to look at my Keysight scopes as a time bomb which will stop working anytime. This is a very serious issue and I think these problemas are just starting to appear as this units are starting to age. I bought mine just a year after they were released so I guess I was an early adopter!

They repair boot problem for free even after warranty end. Also they suggest updating the firmware because it is more robust and allows firmware recovery if the issue happens. Your second problem most likely is what the scope has shown. PLL fail (likely easy to repair yourself), especially considering you had a problem with waveform displayed.

[bsgd]

Actually I do think powering up from time to time could help if Keysight uses some rewrite tecniques to stay away from data retention errors. But I dont know if they do it or how they do it.

[wraper]

Actually I do think powering up from time to time could help if Keysight uses some rewrite tecniques to stay away from data retention errors. But I dont know if they do it or how they do it.

VERY unlikely.

[hibone]

Thank for the thread, I read it out of curiosity, but I never expected to find out that in some scope the firmware is stored on nand flash with 3/6 months data retention. It doesn't even make sense to me. I hope I misunderstood.

If that's the case I wonder what will be the next step.

"Please, sign here with your blood"

[Gary350z]

Haven't there been some talk about SSDs and data retention issues if left unpowered for long times? I'm not really familiar with the facts but just something I remember being mentioned.
EDIT:
I looked into this a bit and found this document from Dell:
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/Solid-State-Drive-FAQ-us.pdf

On page 6 it has this:

I'm sure those data retention times are not the complete truth but at least it suggests that when NAND flash is used it can be an issue and error correction is important.

But do these scopes use NAND for storing the firmware?

1. Could keeping the NAND flash powered up be the reason this scope has a soft power button(power is on all the time)?


2. Why do a lot of new scopes and other test equipment have soft power switches?

[Fraser]

I have a pair of Advantest R3132 Spectrum Analyzers that use 16 MB Sandisk CF cards for the Firmware. I have already backed up the cards but the originals are still working fine and these units have to be 10 years old.

Fraser

[wagon]

Keysight wouldn't get away with that behaviour here in Australia. 

I have personally helped customers get warranty repairs on not long out of warranty items.  The retailer will tell them 'too bad', and so will the manufacturer : but when the manufacturer is asked / persuaded / threatened they come good very quickly.   They rely on consumer ignorance to get away with it. 

Some really reputable manufacturers honour warranties years later for certain faults : Yamaha (music) is well-known for this.  There was one series of digital pianos that had known faults with the keyboard section (the black and white bits).  For many years they'd pay for a technician and the parts to replace the keyboard assembly.  Then it dropped back to parts only, but the instruments were ten years old or so by then.

[bsgd]

Keysight wouldn't get away with that behaviour here in Australia. 

I have personally helped customers get warranty repairs on not long out of warranty items.  The retailer will tell them 'too bad', and so will the manufacturer : but when the manufacturer is asked / persuaded / threatened they come good very quickly.   They rely on consumer ignorance to get away with it. 

Relying on customer ignorance is a VERY common practice here in Brazil. What companies dont uderstand is that a furious customers will never buy their products again, and even worse: they will always tell their bad experience to others.

[wagon]

I forgot to mention, I've had electric fence gear I've repaired fail after 'sitting in a cupboard in the farm shed' for a year or so. 

Usually it's the main high voltage capacitor, something around 20-30uF, 900V rated.  I usually 'look after the customer' but they rarely get it done for free.

[AndyC_772]

Relying on customer ignorance is a VERY common practice here in Brazil. What companies dont uderstand is that a furious customers will never buy their products again, and even worse: they will always tell their bad experience to others.

Are you aware that Brazil is well known as a country with which it's very difficult to do business at all?

Import procedures are so complex, and taxes so high, that places I've worked have simply refused to ship there. When we eventually did, it was for a very specific good reason, and required a disproportionate amount of effort.

It may well be that, because of your location, you're not receiving the level of service that people in other countries would expect - and it's more to do with Brazilian import regulations and customs than any fault on the part of the manufacturer.

[bsgd]

Relying on customer ignorance is a VERY common practice here in Brazil. What companies dont uderstand is that a furious customers will never buy their products again, and even worse: they will always tell their bad experience to others.

Are you aware that Brazil is well known as a country with which it's very difficult to do business at all?

Import procedures are so complex, and taxes so high, that places I've worked have simply refused to ship there. When we eventually did, it was for a very specific good reason, and required a disproportionate amount of effort.

It may well be that, because of your location, you're not receiving the level of service that people in other countries would expect - and it's more to do with Brazilian import regulations and customs than any fault on the part of the manufacturer.

Yes, I am very aware about that, and you described it pretty well. Our customs are slow, bureaucreatic and taxes are high. You are right, but I dont think any companies are obliged to sell here or even be here. If they are, I do think they should know how to treat their customers. All my replacments from Keysight took like 50+ days, and I never complained about that because I know how slow our customs are, so this is not a Keysight problem. But refusing to listen to my complaints and not taking ANY actions to try to remedy my situation has nothing to do with our bureaucracy and customs, do you agree?

[hs3]

I never expected to find out that in some scope the firmware is stored on nand flash with 3/6 months data retention. It doesn't even make sense to me. I hope I misunderstood.

I don't think the situation would be that bad. I don't know what the parts used in the scope are and what kind data retention times are promised for them. Someone could have a look at the teardowns and check what part number is used?

My mention about the NAND data retention issue was mostly just to mention that after long enough time NAND in general could be more likely to have some issues than some other flash types. And if that happens and for some reason the error correction algorithms and other recovery procedures aren't able to deal with that it could be a potential source of problems.

If it is a NAND data retention issue in these scopes I wonder if the firmware update process rewrites the whole flash or if the bootloader area never gets touched and rewritten. Assuming the bootloader is in the NAND flash.

[Monkeh]

Thank for the thread, I read it out of curiosity, but I never expected to find out that in some scope the firmware is stored on nand flash with 3/6 months data retention. It doesn't even make sense to me. I hope I misunderstood.

Nobody has claimed that sort of retention for the flash in these scopes. It should be some years.

E: And five minutes of searching finds a 10 year figure. This is not a data retention problem.

[MT]

Relying on customer ignorance is a VERY common practice here in Brazil. What companies dont uderstand is that a furious customers will never buy their products again, and even worse: they will always tell their bad experience to others.

Are you aware that Brazil is well known as a country with which it's very difficult to do business at all?

Import procedures are so complex, and taxes so high, that places I've worked have simply refused to ship there. When we eventually did, it was for a very specific good reason, and required a disproportionate amount of effort.

It may well be that, because of your location, you're not receiving the level of service that people in other countries would expect - and it's more to do with Brazilian import regulations and customs than any fault on the part of the manufacturer.

Yes, I am very aware about that, and you described it pretty well. Our customs are slow, bureaucreatic and taxes are high. You are right, but I dont think any companies are obliged to sell here or even be here. If they are, I do think they should know how to treat their customers. All my replacments from Keysight took like 50+ days, and I never complained about that because I know how slow our customs are, so this is not a Keysight problem. But refusing to listen to my complaints and not taking ANY actions to try to remedy my situation has nothing to do with our bureaucracy and customs, do you agree?

Dilma have been ousted from the throne yet the Brazilian senate is as corrupt as it always been. Brazil is probably more into exporting
things rather importing so unless your a big fat cat of a company that can push money buttons your way in to create a "easy" import flow
your toast to the system. But that does not give an explanation why the light years between Keysight US and Keysight BR.

I once had steak made of a Brazilian cow in a Venetzuelan bordetown, it was like a rubber-band, most likely the Venezuelan chef's fault! 

If keysight US have this sloppy handling of its subsidiaries/local sales office on might think twice about Keysight US brand policy's, it aint the god ol HP of yesterdays i'm experienced with.

[bsgd]

Relying on customer ignorance is a VERY common practice here in Brazil. What companies dont uderstand is that a furious customers will never buy their products again, and even worse: they will always tell their bad experience to others.

Are you aware that Brazil is well known as a country with which it's very difficult to do business at all?

Import procedures are so complex, and taxes so high, that places I've worked have simply refused to ship there. When we eventually did, it was for a very specific good reason, and required a disproportionate amount of effort.

It may well be that, because of your location, you're not receiving the level of service that people in other countries would expect - and it's more to do with Brazilian import regulations and customs than any fault on the part of the manufacturer.

Yes, I am very aware about that, and you described it pretty well. Our customs are slow, bureaucreatic and taxes are high. You are right, but I dont think any companies are obliged to sell here or even be here. If they are, I do think they should know how to treat their customers. All my replacments from Keysight took like 50+ days, and I never complained about that because I know how slow our customs are, so this is not a Keysight problem. But refusing to listen to my complaints and not taking ANY actions to try to remedy my situation has nothing to do with our bureaucracy and customs, do you agree?

Dilma have been ousted from the throne yet the Brazilian senate is as corrupt as it always been. Brazil is probably more into exporting
things rather importing so unless your a big fat cat of a company that can push money buttons your way in to create a "easy" import flow
your toast to the system. But that does not give an explanation why the light years between Keysight US and Keysight BR.

I once had steak made of a Brazilian cow in a Venetzuelan bordetown, it was like a rubber-band, most likely the Venezuelan chef's fault! 

If keysight US have this sloppy handling of its subsidiaries/local sales office on might think twice about Keysight US brand policy's, it aint the god ol HP of yesterdays i'm experienced with.

Unfortunately I'm not, so as you said, I'm toast to the system. Avutally all our politiciasn are corrupt. If you do investigate them, I dont think a single one would be innocent. They like to keep people ignorant so they can take advantage of this.

I'm sure our steaks are not rubber-like, I suppose the chef wasnt good haha...

So far even Keysight US hasnt solved my issue. Still waiting. Ate least Keysight US is working to help me...

[AndyC_772]

But refusing to listen to my complaints and not taking ANY actions to try to remedy my situation has nothing to do with our bureaucracy and customs, do you agree?

I suspect that, for various reasons which undoubtedly include the cost of doing business there, the Brazilian market is just not that important to manufacturers. The level of service you receive is, I'm afraid, in line with that relative lack of importance.

[bsgd]

But refusing to listen to my complaints and not taking ANY actions to try to remedy my situation has nothing to do with our bureaucracy and customs, do you agree?

I suspect that, for various reasons which undoubtedly include the cost of doing business there, the Brazilian market is just not that important to manufacturers. The level of service you receive is, I'm afraid, in line with that relative lack of importance.

Ok, but if this is not an important market, they shouldnt be here. Being here with a bad customer support not only afftects our market but all markets. People worldwide are reading this and I dont think this sounds good: lets give our best to customers in our best markets and just not care at all about the ones in less important markets...

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

But refusing to listen to my complaints and not taking ANY actions to try to remedy my situation has nothing to do with our bureaucracy and customs, do you agree?

I suspect that, for various reasons which undoubtedly include the cost of doing business there, the Brazilian market is just not that important to manufacturers. The level of service you receive is, I'm afraid, in line with that relative lack of importance.

Ok, but if this is not an important market, they shouldnt be here. Being here with a bad customer support not only afftects our market but all markets. People worldwide are reading this and I dont think this sounds good: lets give our best to customers in our best markets and just not care at all about the ones in less important markets...

We've seen some other vendors pull out of Brazil completely and leave it up to distributors because Brazil is so hard to work with from outside the country.

I'm very sorry for the trouble you've had locally.  I think you got stuck with a weird corner-case issue alongside bad timing with the warranty. We'll get you taken care of!

[bsgd]

But refusing to listen to my complaints and not taking ANY actions to try to remedy my situation has nothing to do with our bureaucracy and customs, do you agree?

I suspect that, for various reasons which undoubtedly include the cost of doing business there, the Brazilian market is just not that important to manufacturers. The level of service you receive is, I'm afraid, in line with that relative lack of importance.

Ok, but if this is not an important market, they shouldnt be here. Being here with a bad customer support not only afftects our market but all markets. People worldwide are reading this and I dont think this sounds good: lets give our best to customers in our best markets and just not care at all about the ones in less important markets...

We've seen some other vendors pull out of Brazil completely and leave it up to distributors because Brazil is so hard to work with from outside the country.

I'm very sorry for the trouble you've had locally.  I think you got stuck with a weird corner-case issue alongside bad timing with the warranty. We'll get you taken care of!

Yes Daniel, I've seen lots of vendors doing that, quite common around here to be honest. I know about all problems we have here (I lived here all my life). I just think my local Keysight office should be a little more understanding. I spent an hour on the phone with them yesterday and they are 100% convinced they are correct in the way they are dealing with this.

Out of curiosity I asked the price of a new unit. The repair price + 5 years extended warranty was higher than a brand new unit (with standard 5 years warranty). I asked them:'Imagine you just got a new replacement car under warranty, and it fails with less than 10 hours of use. Then you get back to the dealer and they give you a repair price higher than that of  a brand new car. Would you be happy? Would you fix your car?' They refused to answer or accept my arguments, and this is the same situation I am going through.

[GlowingGhoul]

I can't believe I'm the only person here who thinks the demand that Keysight repair an out of warranty scope is absurd.

There was ample time to check the scope before the warranty period ended.

The warranty terms were clear when you bought the unit. You had the opportunity to extend that warranty but decided not to spend the money.

It's not even the request for help that I take issue with, it'a the arrogance and the sense of entitlement that goes along with it.

If I were Keysight I would politely point to your warranty terms and send you on your way.

[LabSpokane]

I can't believe I'm the only person here who thinks the demand that Keysight repair an out of warranty scope is absurd.

There was ample time to check the scope before the warranty period ended.

The warranty terms were clear when you bought the unit. You had the opportunity to extend that warranty but decided not to spend the money.

It's not even the request for help that I take issue with, it'a the arrogance and the sense of entitlement that goes along with it.

If I were Keysight I would politely point to your warranty terms and send you on your way.

Between the likelihood of a latent design defect, the fact that a replacement scope was also defective, and the absurd quoted repair cost as compared to the price of the scope, intervention in this instance is appropriate.  If the repair cost was a few hundred dollars, I doubt we'd be talking about this.