New SDS1104X-E missing calibration certificate

[74HC04]

Today I received a SDS1104X-E brand new in box from a well-known (UK) authorized distributer.  I'm frustated in finding that the calibration certificate was neither tucked into the Quick Start Guide, nor elsewhere in the box.

Whilst I await a reply to emails sent to the distributor and Siglent's EU office, is the calibration date stored in the firmware? (A long shot, I know). Perhaps it can be inferred from the 2023-11-28 warranty expiry date?!

Thanks in advance!

[tautech]

We can get PDF copies of the original factory Cal from the factory. Siglent in Hamburg can get them after the factory kicks into gear again next week after CNY.

[74HC04]

We can get PDF copies of the original factory Cal from the factory. Siglent in Hamburg can get them after the factory kicks into gear again next week after CNY.

Thanks tautech, I was hoping you would reply! A PDF of the factory calibration would be perfect and  I shall see if the Hamburg office (or UK distro) reply after CNY.

Seems like a petty thing but it would do a lot to get rid of the bitter taste of not knowing if the scope has had any factory calibration. Perhaps the fact that I care so much is sickness I picked up working at a metrology company! 

[tautech]

LOL yes it's a sickness. 

I get Cal certs with every instrument and over the last while there has been a 6mth extension from cal date to sale date for the 1 yr cal period to start.

[74HC04]

LOL yes it's a sickness. 

I get Cal certs with every instrument and over the last while there has been a 6mth extension from cal date to sale date for the 1 yr cal period to start.

Haha! 

I noticed the extension was mentioned here https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/calibration-certificate/

Again, it's greatly appreciated  . Fingers crossed that I hear something from someone after the end of next week.

[tautech]

If you get overlooked PM me the SN# and I get the Cal sheet for you. As we can't PM PDF's I'll need your email to send it to you.

[74HC04]

If you get overlooked PM me the SN# and I get the Cal sheet for you. As we can't PM PDF's I'll need your email to send it to you.

Thank you very much indeed for the kind offer. I will drop you a PM if I end up banging my head against the wall! 

[tautech]

I really don't understand why Cal sheets aren't forwarded to customers as it seems suppliers don't think they will ever be needed for traceability. 

They really need to sharpen up their game. 

[74HC04]

I figured from what you've written that distributors must get a PDF copy so you don't need to open the box(?) It seems a bit strange that the paper copy was missing from mine and whilst it was hard to be 100% sure, I am fairly confident the box was factory-taped shut. On first boot the scope registered 1 power up... Perhaps the paper sheet was lost in the factory? Who knows?! 

[tautech]

We distributors only see the paper copy unless we request a PDF copy however every reseller has a different dispatch system where in my case I open every unit to fit my company sticker, check FW version and compensate probes if it's a scope.
At that time the boot count is 1 after I've done my PD checks and my customer sees 2 when they boot the unit for the first time.

Anyways it's not a biggy as whenever I've requested a Cal sheet they have been available. Done that a couple of times for members here, one with new gear like you and another with a used unit and wanted to know date of manufacture/Cal for his own interest.
Recently a customer wanted one too as he'd lost the original along with the manuals and CD. 

[74HC04]

We distributors only see the paper copy unless we request a PDF copy however every reseller has a different dispatch system where in my case I open every unit to fit my company sticker, check FW version and compensate probes if it's a scope.
At that time the boot count is 1 after I've done my PD checks and my customer sees 2 when they boot the unit for the first time.

It's good to hear that you make these pre-delivery checks and setup the instrument! Sounds like top-teir service.

Anyways it's not a biggy as whenever I've requested a Cal sheet they have been available. Done that a couple of times for members here, one with new gear like you and another with a used unit and wanted to know date of manufacture/Cal for his own interest.
Recently a customer wanted one too as he'd lost the original along with the manuals and CD. 

Good to know that these Cal sheets have been freely available for you. I feel happier knowing Siglent are likely to make the effort. Thanks!

[tautech]

Be aware most sellers don't have a direct line to the factory but instead either must go through the Hamburg or Ohio divisions of Siglent.
NZ is a small place of just 5M so here there is just me so I deal directly with Shenzhen.

[74HC04]

Be aware most sellers don't have a direct line to the factory but instead either must go through the Hamburg or Ohio divisions of Siglent.
NZ is a small place of just 5M so here there is just me so I deal directly with Shenzhen.

Sounds like I'm more likely to get a reply from Siglent EU than my distro then. Thanks.

I am hoping I don't have to bother you again but really do appreciate the offer!

(p.s. if you think 5M is small, try a population of 105k . I no longer live on the mainland and it took a week for the scope to get here!  . It must be good to deal directly with the factory).

[tautech]

LOL 3 days is normal for anywhere in NZ.

Anyways you'd better get started with getting to know your scope as it will be a while before you get to be fully conversant with it ! 

[Fungus]

I really don't understand why Cal sheets aren't forwarded to customers as it seems suppliers don't think they will ever be needed for traceability. 

Think of the planet!

PS: I imagine the first thing most customers do is press "auto-cal", thus invalidating the certificate.

[tautech]

I really don't understand why Cal sheets aren't forwarded to customers as it seems suppliers don't think they will ever be needed for traceability. 

Think of the planet!

Plant a tree, how many have you ?

PS: I imagine the first thing most customers do is press "auto-cal", thus invalidating the certificate.

Do you even really know how that works ?
Or Quick Cal for that matter ?

[rf-loop]

PS: I imagine the first thing most customers do is press "auto-cal", thus invalidating the certificate.

What is this random generator you use for generate these comments.

[2N3055]

What is this random generator you use for generate these comments.

LOL! good one..

But seriously, this is from Keysight 3000T user manual:

"
Perform user-calibration:
• Every two years or after 4000 hours of operation.
• If the ambient temperature is >10° C from the calibration temperature.
• If you want to maximize the measurement accuracy.
The amount of use, environmental conditions, and experience with other
instruments help determine if you need shorter User Cal intervals
"

and then:

"
User Cal performs an internal self-alignment routine to optimize the signal path in
the oscilloscope. The routine uses internally generated signals to optimize circuits
that affect channel sensitivity, offset, and trigger parameters.

Performing User Cal will invalidate your Certificate of Calibration. If NIST (National
Institute of Standards and Technology) traceability is required, perform the
"Performance Verification" procedure in the Keysight InfiniiVision
2000/3000 X-Series Oscilloscopes Service Guide using traceable sources.
"

So self cal is needed for best accuracy, but invalidates Certificate of Calibration... 

Sinisa

[Fungus]

PS: I imagine the first thing most customers do is press "auto-cal", thus invalidating the certificate.

Do you even really know how that works ?
Or Quick Cal for that matter ?

Are Siglents so magical that a user can't mess them up by pressing "auto-cal"?

(eg. before it warms up properly)

[2N3055]

PS: I imagine the first thing most customers do is press "auto-cal", thus invalidating the certificate.

Do you even really know how that works ?
Or Quick Cal for that matter ?

Are Siglents so magical that a user can't mess them up by pressing "auto-cal"?

(eg. before it warms up properly)

If you selfcal while internal temp is still low, you can always restart selfcal.

User can also permanently decalibrate it by using hammer.

I was pointing out the idiocy of lawyer talk in Keysight documents. 
There is a factory calibration/adjustment that defines real accuracy of the instrument.
And self cal that is equivalent to bench multi-meter Autocal (that high precision meters have).
Somehow in bench meters it is auto cal is improving specification, and on the scopes it invalidates traceability..

There is a complete lunacy surrounding this topic, completely confusing bureaucracy of traceability with accuracy of instrument measurements.

[rf-loop]

PS: I imagine the first thing most customers do is press "auto-cal", thus invalidating the certificate.

Do you even really know how that works ?
Or Quick Cal for that matter ?

Are Siglents so magical that a user can't mess them up by pressing "auto-cal"?

(eg. before it warms up properly)

If you selfcal while internal temp is still low, you can always restart selfcal.

User can also permanently decalibrate it by using hammer.

I was pointing out the idiocy of lawyer talk in Keysight documents. 
There is a factory calibration/adjustment that defines real accuracy of the instrument.
And self cal that is equivalent to bench multi-meter Autocal (that high precision meters have).
Somehow in bench meters it is auto cal is improving specification, and on the scopes it invalidates traceability..

There is a complete lunacy surrounding this topic, completely confusing bureaucracy of traceability with accuracy of instrument measurements.

Perhaps even more...

Whole NIST traceable cal have many problems.

One of simplest is something like this mechanism is build in this whole mess.
Take example. I have some lab what make tests and all need do with NIST traceable instruments with valid certificate. Lab room temp is also measured with certified meter so that it is inside valid range. Think certificates valid  period is 1 year. After instrument come from cal lab we continue measurements and write documents and every document have also info about instruments calibration cert.

Year go and lot of things have done.

Instrument go again to cal lab for certificate.
In this process find it is off and can not write certificate, first need repair/adjust etc.

But there is not any knowledge when this fault happen, if it happen just after last cal check or drifted until some day gone out of limits.

There is lot of test reports around of world done with this instrument or it is part of test setup.

Do you call back all test results made after last cal certificate because you do not know when it have failed. It can be failed whole year and all measurements can be just garbage.

This is one small hole in this whole cal mess.

 

[Fungus]

This is one small hole in this whole cal mess.

Yep. User error can invalidate a certificate  ten minutes after it was issued. Even in a controlled environment it can mean the device is giving bad results for months/years before the next check.

(I believe this is why Fluke and others make you disassemble the meter just to change a fuse).

[2N3055]

(I believe this is why Fluke and others make you disassemble the meter just to change a fuse).

Nah, that is because Flukes are really made to contain explosion, and having one piece solid case makes it easier to make it safer...
Fuses should be ones most armoured which interferes with easy to access...

[2N3055]

You are so correct.
Current calibration certificates actually kinda work in reverse, and you need two cals, to attest that whatever was measured in interval between two certificates was probably accurate...
So you calibrate, measure for a year, than calibrate again, and you can say that measurements for the last year were OK.
If you fail cal, everything going to last good cal is questionable.

That is why for critical measurements they keep cal lab on site and calibrate on 30 days and 24 hour intervals...

And that is why for critical measurements you measure with multiple instruments as a sanity check...
It gets complicated and expensive quick..

[tautech]

PS: I imagine the first thing most customers do is press "auto-cal", thus invalidating the certificate.

Do you even really know how that works ?
Or Quick Cal for that matter ?

Are Siglents so magical that a user can't mess them up by pressing "auto-cal"?

(eg. before it warms up properly)

If you selfcal while internal temp is still low, you can always restart selfcal.

You wouldn't do that if you RTFM.....nobody can fully compensate for uninformed/careless use of an instrument.

I was pointing out the idiocy of lawyer talk in Keysight documents.

No such claim of ruining calibration is even mentioned in Siglent documentation therefore the intelligent reader will assume there is no risk in running Self Cal which of course there isn't.
To confirm this assumption the factory says:
The user self cal will not destroy the calibration data.

There is a factory calibration/adjustment that defines real accuracy of the instrument.

Yes, and entirely separate to user cal. User Cal makes miniscule adjustments so to maintain best accuracy until the next verification of accuracy is performed at normally 1 yr intervals. (Calibration)
Accuracy verification steps/tests are listed in the Service manual.