Author Topic: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread  (Read 48427 times)

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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #350 on: May 06, 2024, 08:43:41 pm »
Nice. :-+
"Fun" fact:
The different modes (Average, Max Hold) are not available with the "normal" FFT from Lecroy.
You have to buy them with the "Spectrum Analyzer" option....
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #351 on: May 06, 2024, 11:54:49 pm »
Today, at work...
Lecroy Waverunner 9054(8bit), HDO6034A(12bit).
FFT with 100khz span, source Siglent SDG1062X, 50Mhz, 0dBm, 50Ohm.

Maybe we should have the last pages separated and moved to a new thread, title suggestion "FFT comparison and settings".


Split from which post exactly?
 
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Online Martin72

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Offline electronics hobbyist

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #353 on: May 08, 2024, 03:33:25 am »
Quote
0 dBm 1 MHz carrier, AM modulated with sine wave 10Khz / 100%, sourced by SDG2042x

In addition, you have changed the window to "Blackman" and manually reduced the sample rate to 10MSa/s,  to complete the settings...
Then I get the same result.
I don't know if these are the right settings.
In any case, anything below -72dBm can be doubted as to whether it actually exists.
Possibly these "artifacts" below this threshold are faded out in the DHO, unfortunately I don't have any more to investigate this.

The comparison chart of this keysight shows that the SDG output has these frequencies.

Online Performa01Topic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #354 on: May 08, 2024, 05:58:39 pm »
50 Ω Termination and probing

I sometimes see discussions about 50 Ω termination at the scope inputs. Some seem to believe that scopes with switchable 50 Ω inputs are just a luxury, that can easily be replaced by an external through-terminator or a BNC-T with end terminator.

Even though I’ve often commented on this very topic already, I want to repeat it here with especially the SDS800X HD in mind.

The commonly agreed industry standard for the maximum acceptable input VSWR is 1.5:1, which is equivalent to 14 dB return loss. This tolerates 4 % power reflection with its associated amplitude errors. It goes without saying that oscilloscopes with properly designed switchable 50 Ω inputs, like the SDS2000X series and anything above from Siglent, provide a VSWR ≤1.5:1 up to and beyond their full bandwidth.

Now let’s have a look at all these emergency solutions, like external through-terminators and BNC-T with end termination, which all have a perfect VSWR of 1:1 up to 250 MHz when not connected to anything.

First let’s connect the ancient hp10100C through-terminator to a real scope input, like the 1 MΩ // 17 pF in case of the SDS824X HD:


hp10100C_SDS824X HD_VSWR_73M

The VSWR reaches 1.5:1 at 73 MHz. Beyond that, we’ll have to face substantial linear distortion.

Here’s another test with the through-terminator RS-456-150-50Ω, which is the Tyco part B35 X13 • 999 X99, connected to the SDS824X HD:


RS-456-150-50Ω_SDS824X HD_VSWR_78M

The VSWR reaches 1.5:1 at 78 MHz, hence is a tad better than the venerable hp10100C.

Finally, the BNC-T with 50 Ω end terminator connected to the SDS824X HD:


BNC-T50_SDS824X HD_VSWR_78M

The VSWR reaches 1.5:1 at 78 MHz, hence its effect is the same as the RS-456-150-50Ω.

Just for orientation, here’s the VSWR-plot up to 3 GHz for the hp10100C not connected to anything:


hp10100C_VSWR_1157M

The VSWR reaches 1.5:1 at 1157 MHz, hence would be useless for higher bandwidth oscilloscopes. By contrast, here’s the VSWR-plot up to 1.2 GHz for the SDS2504X HD and its 50 Ω input path:


SDS2504X HD_V200mV_VSWR_1130M

Here the VSWR reaches 1.5:1 at 1130 MHz, which is very similar to the hp through-terminator alone. Now, at the latest, it should become clear that 50 Ω input mode is more than just a resistor switched across the input connector. I do not have any SDS1000X HD here, but would not be surprised if its VSWR was similar to the SDS2000X HD.

An oscilloscope without 50 Ω inputs is fine as long as you stick to the supplied probes, but circuit loading might become a problem at relatively low frequencies like 20 MHz already. Passive x10 “high impedance” probes with e.g. 10 pF tip capacitance represent a 200 Ω load impedance at 80 MHz after all. On the other hand, it can only perform up to some 80 MHz without noticeable linear distortion when using direct coax connection.

Conclusion:Whenever you plan to do serious work at higher frequencies, then you should consider an oscilloscope with proper 50 Ω inputs. In order to avoid expensive active probes, you should better design appropriate 50 Ω test points into your prototype circuit.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 06:01:17 pm by Performa01 »
 


Offline markone

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #356 on: May 11, 2024, 01:13:38 am »
This is also a very exciting topic that "deserves" its own thread.
Let's see if a moderator reacts, then he can also take this post with him.
Again 50Mhz 0dBm, Siglent 824X HD, 50Ohm termination.
Span 10khz, so far so clear.
I have combined 2 tracks, the current one is at a vertical setting of 110mV/div (C1), the REF B track(purple) is at 100mV/div.(C1)



Hi Martin,

could you try again with also 50KHz and 1MHz SPAN ?

Here below my results, very same settings :

10KHz SPAN :




50KHz SPAN :



1MHz SPAN :



I would say unusable, in order to eliminate false spurious at this center frequency you have to raise RBW to a much higher value (222Hz ---> 3.56KHz) :





and the whole picture is much less interesting.

Useless to say, sourced signal is clean with SSA :



where are missing also the small spurious present in 10KHz SPAN spectrum images (your and mine).

I would say that SDS800x FFT is not usable at low RBW (in relation to the central frequency), if you guys can say with certainty that there are no bugs in the FW FFT implementation my interest in this functionality, apart from a few cases at quite low frequencies, ends here.
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #357 on: May 11, 2024, 04:20:00 am »
Your pictures cannot be enlarged, cannot see the details clearly.

Open the images in a new window or tab
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 
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Offline electronics hobbyist

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #358 on: May 11, 2024, 05:45:48 am »
Open the images in a new window or tab

Thank you, I have deleted the previous post. From these pictures, it appears that this phenomenon occurs when the number of points is >= 10M.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 05:47:55 am by electronics hobbyist »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #359 on: May 11, 2024, 06:27:20 am »
From these pictures, it appears that this phenomenon occurs when the number of points is >= 10M.

So, potentially an error in the down-sampling to the FFT's 2 MPt maximum?
 

Online gf

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #360 on: May 11, 2024, 08:47:21 am »
1MHz SPAN :



...
I would say that SDS800x FFT is not usable at low RBW (in relation to the central frequency), if you guys can say with certainty that there are no bugs in the FW FFT implementation my interest in this functionality, apart from a few cases at quite low frequencies, ends here.

* Could you capture 100M samples of this signal at full 2GSa/s sample rate and post the .bin file?
   My feeling is that what you see in the FFT graph is already contained in the samples. I tend not to blame the FFT for that.

* On a larger 0...1GHz span, how do the levels of the harmonics compare between FFT and SA?

* Does a larger V/div (200mV/, 500mV/,...) reduce the amplitude of the close-in spurs (and harmonics)?

So, potentially an error in the down-sampling to the FFT's 2 MPt maximum?

Not necessarily an error. If there exist harmonics beyond 75 MHz then it is expected that they will fold into the first Nyquist zone, and if the carrier deviates only slightly from 50 MHz, the folded harmonics can indeed form a comb in the neighborhood the fundamental frequency.
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #361 on: May 11, 2024, 09:39:29 am »
Not necessarily an error. If there exist harmonics beyond 75 MHz then it is expected that they will fold into the first Nyquist zone, and if the carrier deviates only slightly from 50 MHz, the folded harmonics can indeed form a comb in the neighborhood the fundamental frequency.

Good point. I just tried to reproduce the effect, and indeed it disappears when the incoming signal's frequency is adjusted such that the SDS800X HD sees it as exactly 50 MHz. The scope's time base clock is off by approx. 1..10 ppm -- well within spec of course.

So do the other instruments, which markone and others compared with, have a better clock accuracy (either due to tighter specs or luck), and hence did not see the folded-back harmonics? And/or do they see less harmonics due to better linearity of the input stage?

(Edit: Changed the stated time base tolerance -- it seems that I got lucky initially, with a 1 ppm deviation shortly after powering up the signal generator and scope. The deviation settled at about 10 ppm after a while, still well within the +- 25 ppm spec.)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 10:08:57 am by ebastler »
 

Online gf

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #362 on: May 11, 2024, 10:35:27 am »
I just tried to reproduce the effect, and indeed it disappears when the incoming signal's frequency is adjusted such that the SDS800X HD sees it as exactly 50 MHz. The scope's time base clock is off by approx. 1 ppm -- well within spec of course.

So do the other instruments, which markone and others compared with, have a better clock accuracy (either due to tighter specs or luck), and hence did not see the folded-back harmonics? And/or do they see less harmonics due to better linearity of the input stage?

Should be easy to verify this on the other scope models, by adjusting the frequency.

Could you also do a FFT with 0...1GHz span at 2GSa/s, in order to see the levels of the first 19 harmonics (w/o folding)?
And if you have a SA, then for comparison the same also on the SA.

The -30dB reading at marker 5 in markone's screenshot is quite a lot. What max. spur level do you see?
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #363 on: May 11, 2024, 11:09:22 am »
Screenshots of the full 1 GHz spectrum and of my recreation of markone's settings are attached. The input signal was nominal 50 MHz from an (upgraded) SDG2042X.

The highest spurious peak in the "folded back" setting is -30 dBm as well, as in markone's measurement. But in the full 1 GHz spectrum, all harmonics are below -50 dBm. What's happening there?
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #364 on: May 11, 2024, 01:01:43 pm »
Quote from: markone
could you try again with also 50KHz and 1MHz SPAN ?

Same results, but won´t post it until the "new" thread exist..

Offline markone

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #365 on: May 11, 2024, 01:13:47 pm »
1MHz SPAN :

...
I would say that SDS800x FFT is not usable at low RBW (in relation to the central frequency), if you guys can say with certainty that there are no bugs in the FW FFT implementation my interest in this functionality, apart from a few cases at quite low frequencies, ends here.

* Could you capture 100M samples of this signal at full 2GSa/s sample rate and post the .bin file?
   My feeling is that what you see in the FFT graph is already contained in the samples. I tend not to blame the FFT for that.

100MSa are available @ 2GSa/s | 5ms/div, with this setting FFT works up to 25MHz, 50MHz CF is possible up to 2GSa/s | 2ms/div that corresponds to 40MSa, not relevant to you request but it's important to know.

My feeling is that here we have a "beat" phenomenon between ADC sample frequency and input signal frequency, not an expert in FFT math but I guess there are techniques to mitigate it.

Anyway, do you have an application able to dump the whole acquisition buffer ?


* On a larger 0...1GHz span, how do the levels of the harmonics compare between FFT and SA?


It's all up to RBW setting related to CF, any SPAN/CF combination has a RBW thereshold under which the spurious fest start, anyway the SSA provides this spectrum image :




* Does a larger V/div (200mV/, 500mV/,...) reduce the amplitude of the close-in spurs (and harmonics)?



Tried infinite settings, this is definitely not the case.

So, potentially an error in the down-sampling to the FFT's 2 MPt maximum?

Not necessarily an error. If there exist harmonics beyond 75 MHz then it is expected that they will fold into the first Nyquist zone, and if the carrier deviates only slightly from 50 MHz, the folded harmonics can indeed form a comb in the neighborhood the fundamental frequency.

Those spurious, that of course do not actually exist, appear with many FFT point size settings , as already mentioned to boredom it's all up to RBW setting toward CF value.
 

Offline markone

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #366 on: May 11, 2024, 01:14:51 pm »
Quote from: markone
could you try again with also 50KHz and 1MHz SPAN ?

Same results, but won´t post it until the "new" thread exist..

are you sure that it will never exist ... ?
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #367 on: May 11, 2024, 01:23:41 pm »
I have now pressed the "Moderator Button" again, we are already way over here, but the topic itself is highly interesting, which is why I am in favor of it being outsourced.
It's also not just the SDS800X HD, other scopes have the same behavior, so it's time it got its own thread.


Offline markone

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #368 on: May 11, 2024, 01:27:34 pm »
Screenshots of the full 1 GHz spectrum and of my recreation of markone's settings are attached. The input signal was nominal 50 MHz from an (upgraded) SDG2042X.

The highest spurious peak in the "folded back" setting is -30 dBm as well, as in markone's measurement. But in the full 1 GHz spectrum, all harmonics are below -50 dBm. What's happening there?

Let's put it simple : the selected RBW values are not working correctly, it's useless to make comparison between utterly wrong spectrum images, if you want to get something similar to reality @ 50MHz CF / 1MHz SPAN, set RBW minimum at 3.36KHz (as I did in the "clean" spectrum that I posted).
 

Offline markone

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #369 on: May 11, 2024, 01:28:25 pm »
I have now pressed the "Moderator Button" again, we are already way over here, but the topic itself is highly interesting, which is why I am in favor of it being outsourced.
It's also not just the SDS800X HD, other scopes have the same behavior, so it's time it got its own thread.

Do you know a "fast" way to dump the complete sampling buffer ?
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #370 on: May 11, 2024, 01:51:27 pm »
Let's put it simple : the selected RBW values are not working correctly, it's useless to make comparison between utterly wrong spectrum images, if you want to get something similar to reality @ 50MHz CF / 1MHz SPAN, set RBW minimum at 3.36KHz (as I did in the "clean" spectrum that I posted).

I think the discussion has already moved beyond your "selected RBW values not working" and "utterly wrong" statements. gf's observation that the lowered sampling rates which are associated with your long captures (125 MSa/s only in your most recent screenshot!) will result in folded-back harmonics makes good sense to me.

The presence of harmonics can be confirmed with a high-bandwidth FFT, and the foldback effect can be confirmed by carefully tuning the input signal to an exact 50 MHz (as perceived by the scope). Please take a step back and re-read the recent posts.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #371 on: May 11, 2024, 02:13:36 pm »
Here is my scope.
same settings, I even tuned the AWG for scope to show 50.00067 MHz so we can see if there are some specific beat frequencies..
 

Offline markone

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #372 on: May 11, 2024, 02:14:04 pm »
Let's put it simple : the selected RBW values are not working correctly, it's useless to make comparison between utterly wrong spectrum images, if you want to get something similar to reality @ 50MHz CF / 1MHz SPAN, set RBW minimum at 3.36KHz (as I did in the "clean" spectrum that I posted).

I think the discussion has already moved beyond your "selected RBW values not working" and "utterly wrong" statements. gf's observation that the lowered sampling rates which are associated with your long captures (125 MSa/s only in your most recent screenshot!) will result in folded-back harmonics makes good sense to me.


You can move beyond what you want, but the sad truth is still "selected RBW values not working" and "utterly wrong"


The presence of harmonics can be confirmed with a high-bandwidth FFT, and the foldback effect can be confirmed by carefully tuning the input signal to an exact 50 MHz (as perceived by the scope). Please take a step back and re-read the recent posts.

No need to re-read considerations based on false spectrum readings, because also your "high-bandwidth FFT" is fullfilled with non-existent spurious, if you want to look at the "truth" please make use of a real SSA as I'm doing.

 

Offline markone

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #373 on: May 11, 2024, 02:14:53 pm »
Here is my scope.
same settings, I even tuned the AWG for scope to show 50.00067 MHz so we can see if there are some specific beat frequencies..

Model of your scope ?

EDIT : please try to set the SPAM to 1MHz just to align settings.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 02:16:43 pm by markone »
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #374 on: May 11, 2024, 02:16:10 pm »
Here is my scope.
same settings, I even tuned the AWG for scope to show 50.00067 MHz so we can see if there are some specific beat frequencies..

Model of your scope ?
What do you mean? SDS824xHD of course. That is one we are discussing here...
 


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