Should I buy a Rigol MSO5000?

[TurboTom]

Batronix (probably on behalf of Rigol) lists Rigol's DS/MSO 2000 and 4000 series "obsolete" -- for understandable reasons, the DS/MSO 5000 and 7000 series are probably meant to replace them. Their really old platform, the DS6000 that didn't see a firmware update since almost half a decade, is still in their "current portfolio", maybe since they haven't got anything else (yet) that is specified up to 1GHz bandwidth. That's a real anachronism...

And I guess this means that firmware support for the 2000 and 4000 models has ended with the recent updates for these two models (January 2019 / July 2018, respectively). So verly likely we can expect Rigol to focus their efforts on the new series / platform. I wouldn't be surprised if an "MSO5000A" will be released in a year or two that provides a somewhat "polished" hardware and also includes internal, selectable 50 ohms termination for the inputs, just like they did with the 2000 -> 2000A modification.

Well, just a few thoughts on the situation...

Cheers,
Thomas

[Martin72]

Hi guys, I have the almost mandatory DS1054Z which covers many of my needs, but I have started to consider purchasing an MSO5000 for better performance and a function generator(which I don't have in my "lab").

I would probaby buy the MSO5074(to get four probes) and then hack it to all options, which will set me back around 1100 EUR. Thats completely doable, as far as I can tell. Then I'll sell my DS1054Z, which can bring in just short of 300 EUR, bringing my total expenses to 800 EUR for a nice-spec scope and a function generator. I know the function generator isn't up to par with a separate unit(its only 5Vpp), but its most likely enough for me(I need line-level audio signals and perhaps some PWM stuff for SMPS control).


What are your opinions of the MSO5000 series? I am especially interested in the front-end overdrive recovery, which is apparently much better than competing scopes and allows you to measure low-voltage signals superimposed onto high-voltage signals(e.g. drain-source on voltage on a switching node). The EEVBlog review sort of knocks it for firmware bugs, but I assume that most of those are fixed now?

In my opion, the MSO5000 is the best buy for the money.
In contrast to some others here I own one since december and of course, it have some issues - but it´s "brandnew", last month was the first firmware update released.
You can´t expect a fully working digital scope out of the box for this price - even 3....5 times expensive ones didn´t.
And most of the issues doesn´t disturb me at work, because they aren´t that big as you can read about it.
So I can wait patiently for forthcoming updates, no worry about it.
The MSO5000 got tons of memory, unbeatable samplingrate ( for it´s price), lot of useful (and less useful) features, a big ( dim) screen...I can´t see any scope at this price which is comparable.
Rigol itself compares the 5000 with the 2000s tek and keysight models and this is the right range.
For me it´s a great scope.
For 1100€...
Fully official armed it cost about 5000€ - for this price, I wouldn´t buy a MSO5000 for sure, in this range there are better scopes  (especially R&S and perhaps the new siglents).
But I paid 1100 and know what I get for.
With the hack a real burner, not more, not less.

[NoisyBoy]

Agree with your points from a historical perspective. 

My view is that we cannot guarantee there will be no policy change in the future, all it is required is a new product manager with a money making reason for the senior leadership.  Hence there is risk to justify a purchase decision based on the assumption that the scope can be hacked in perpetuity. 

Back to OP's original intend, I think it is dangerous to assume a 5074 can be unlocked for full capability indefinitely.

Nah, I think it's a pretty safe bet. The people in the hacking thread simply know too much about the system now.

eg. Rigol changed the root password from the Xilinx default in the latest firmware update? That might have just been to stop it being pwned by botnets.

(b) They've been selling hackable 'scopes for decades when it would have been easy to close the "holes". eg. The DS1054Z would have been nothing without hacking. With hacking they sold a million units (rough estimate based on no data whatsoever).

and, (c) There's no way in hell the MSO5000 can compete in the market without hacking. $5000 for all options? That's a complete joke. $999 for the 70Mhz version? That's almost worse - their competitors sell 200Mhz 'scopes for half that.

[rsjsouza]

I understand nctnico's points about releasing unfinished products. Unfortunately testability costs real cash and time, thus the entry level market that SigRig operates is prone to vaporware and beta testing pushed to customers.

My experience with Rigol was always avoiding getting their products in the ramping phase.

I got a DS1102E years after it had matured (2012) and, three years later, I sold it and got a DS4014 on a bargain from their clearance store. This helped me save myself from the massive grief that other users experienced - especially for the DS4000, where the price tag was much higher.

I have no experience with the newer models from SigRig, but the reports here indicate this is not so different.

[TK]

The maturity issue with the new Rigol scopes is a different matter... as they took the ASIC route, if they have any design flaws (like not having high resolution capture, not doing serial decoding in HW, etc), they will stick with the lack of those features for a long time until the next revision of the ASIC is released and in some cases they can compensate by software, but some limitations or bugs will never be resolved for a scope that was already sold.  It is something like what is happening with Keysight with their ASIC and the sample memory being too small..

[ebastler]

It is something like what is happening with Keysight with their ASIC and the sample memory being too small..

Whereas, if it were an FPGA-based design, they would simply update the firmware to add more memory to the FPGA? 

I think there is no point in trying to spread FUD about the 5000Z.
What are you trying to achieve here?

[nctnico]

It is something like what is happening with Keysight with their ASIC and the sample memory being too small..

Whereas, if it were an FPGA-based design, they would simply update the firmware to add more memory to the FPGA? 

I think there is no point in trying to spread FUD about the 5000Z.
What are you trying to achieve here?

You are not getting the point TK is making. If you leave features out of an ASIC then doing a redesign will take a lot of time and money. The way the MSO5000 sits now makes it look like Rigol has left several important features (like decoding and high-res) out of the ASIC. Keysight has a different but equally severe limitation with their ASICs: they have a lot of functionality inside the ASIC except memory. That is very hard to fix/extend without a re-design. In case of an FPGA adding more memory or resources is easy: put a bigger FPGA on the board and/or use a larger memory chip.

To make matters worse for the Rigol MSO5000: the memory depth is so large that the processor doesn't have enough power to do any meaningful operations on the entire memory without slowing down to a crawl. With great memory comes a great need for processing power. Oscilloscopes with far less memory are already struggling to do software based operations on the acquisition memory (even though they are based on the Zync architecture). IMHO Rigol's ASIC doesn't give any edge over the competition but must have cost them a boat load of money.

[rsjsouza]

The maturity issue with the new Rigol scopes is a different matter... as they took the ASIC route, (...)

Rigol is new to the ASIC game, thus they will need some time before they get all kinks solved. Regardless, ASICs are not the same as they were - SW nowadays plays a much larger role than when HP released the first MegaZoom ASIC several decades ago. A modern ASIC usually has a multitude of small programmable units inside (albeit quite simple and tied to specific peripherals) and with a certain degree of re-routing and reconfigurability.

It is something like what is happening with Keysight with their ASIC and the sample memory being too small..

Whereas, if it were an FPGA-based design, they would simply update the firmware to add more memory to the FPGA? 

I think there is no point in trying to spread FUD about the 5000Z.
What are you trying to achieve here?

I think TK is just showing a datapoint that happened with HPAK many decades ago.

[ebastler]

You are not getting the point TK is making. If you leave features out of an ASIC then doing a redesign will take a lot of time and money. The way the MSO5000 sits now makes it look like Rigol has left several important features (like decoding and high-res) out of the ASIC. Keysight has a different but equally severe limitation with their ASICs: they have a lot of functionality inside the ASIC except memory. That is very hard to fix/extend without a re-design. In case of an FPGA adding more memory or resources is easy: put a bigger FPGA on the board and/or use a larger memory chip.

Thank you, I understood the point alright. TK was claiming that the problem with ASICs is that "some limitations or bugs will never be resolved for a scope that was already sold". And then proceeded to give an example that would have required a hardware addition in any case, whether ASIC or FPGA-based.

Regarding the advantages of upgrading to a larger FPGA (in a revised scope generation) vs. re-spinning an ASIC which you claim, I'd say:

• Releasing an updated scope with enhanced hardware (FPGA) specs seems quite uncommon indeed. Can you name a few examples where manufacturers -- whether Chinese or US brands -- have done so?
• You may be overestimating the NRE cost for re-spinning an ASIC. See here for example. http://blog.zorinaq.com/asic-development-costs-are-lower-than-you-think/

[Noy]

MSO5000 is not the first scope with this asic.
So i would worry more if i bought the 7000 series.

[nctnico]

You are not getting the point TK is making. If you leave features out of an ASIC then doing a redesign will take a lot of time and money. The way the MSO5000 sits now makes it look like Rigol has left several important features (like decoding and high-res) out of the ASIC. Keysight has a different but equally severe limitation with their ASICs: they have a lot of functionality inside the ASIC except memory. That is very hard to fix/extend without a re-design. In case of an FPGA adding more memory or resources is easy: put a bigger FPGA on the board and/or use a larger memory chip.

Thank you, I understood the point alright. TK was claiming that the problem with ASICs is that "some limitations or bugs will never be resolved for a scope that was already sold". And then proceeded to give an example that would have required a hardware addition in any case, whether ASIC or FPGA-based.

Regarding the advantages of upgrading to a larger FPGA (in a revised scope generation) vs. re-spinning an ASIC which you claim, I'd say:

• Releasing an updated scope with enhanced hardware (FPGA) specs seems quite uncommon indeed. Can you name a few examples where manufacturers -- whether Chinese or US brands -- have done so?
• You may be overestimating the NRE cost for re-spinning an ASIC. See here for example. http://blog.zorinaq.com/asic-development-costs-are-lower-than-you-think/

I think the Siglent SDS2000X is an updated version of the SDS2000. There are also many scopes with A-B-C-D versions. Still with an FPGA you can choose to use a different size one right up to the point when the first pre-production prototypes are produced. With an ASIC you have to plan ahead. From the comments in the link you provided you'll see that the costs quoted on the website are very low. A bitcoin mining ASIC is probably also relatively simple because the same (small) structure is repeated many times to increase processing speed.

One of the comments:
Unfortunately the examples don't provide a measure of the ASIC's complexity. Pre-tapeout expenses (designers' headcount) will be a function of how many testable features are included on the chip. In my experience I've NEVER seen an ASIC project team complete a design for less than $500K USD, regardless of location.

[ebastler]

A bitcoin mining ASIC is probably also relatively simple because the same (small) structure is repeated many times to increase processing speed.

One of the comments:
Unfortunately the examples don't provide a measure of the ASIC's complexity. Pre-tapeout expenses (designers' headcount) will be a function of how many testable features are included on the chip. In my experience I've NEVER seen an ASIC project team complete a design for less than $500K USD, regardless of location.

That's a valid point; the ASIC complexity will impact the price, of course. I don't dare to compare the complexity of a Bitcoin miner vs. a scope data processor. Recent FPGA-based Bitcoin miners use FPGAs with some horsepower, e.g. Xilinx Kintex-7, so they might well be comparable in complexity to an oscilloscope.

But even if the full cost of an ASIC development project is somewhat higher than the $200k..$300k stated in the blog post, only part of that (mainly the mask cost) will recur if you need to create a slightly modified version of a working design.

Anyway, the biggest unknown in any estimates is probably the number of scopes Rigol produces and sells. If they have to re-spin the ASIC after one year, are those $200k (or whatever) of mask costs amortized over 10k scopes, or 100k, or what number?

[Martin72]

There are also many scopes with A-B-C-D versions.

Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 and 3000Z Series - Same features, same look, but better (faster) hardware in the Z-models

[tautech]

There are also many scopes with A-B-C-D versions.

Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 and 3000Z Series - Same features, same look, but better (faster) hardware in the Z-models

SDS3000 and SDS3000X 

[Martin72]

Hehe….

We shouldn´t forget the topic:

Should I buy a Rigol MSO5000..
Yes, if you couldn´t / won´t spend more money on it.
And more means in this case really more.
And speculations about possible hardware-updates somewhere in the future, well…
Today is today, maybe a better screen will be implemented, maybe an internal 50 Input will be implemented. ( the DSO/MSO7000 got it now and here but costs as much as the entry R&S RTB(which hadn´t a 50 ohm Input)- but I would go definitely for the RTB instead)
Maybe in 2yrs, maybe in 3yrs, maybe never and a new model comes out, who knows it now, that shouldn´t be a point for buying a scope or not.
How much could I spend for it, are there alternatives for this money, are they better/equal/worse, what will I do with it…and so on.

[KC0PPH]

What would be the "next step down" from this scope. Sub $1k price.

Requirements include AWG either internal to the scope or the scope plus AWG should be Sub 1K.

[Martin72]

Got the combo siglent SDS 1104X-E scope and awg siglent SDG1032X (wow...actual price only 308€) before.

Hard to beat, for me the SDS 1104X-E is better than rigol DS1054Z and the awg is better than the comparable from rigol, too.

[tautech]

What would be the "next step down" from this scope. Sub $1k price.

Requirements include AWG either internal to the scope or the scope plus AWG should be Sub 1K.

Depends of a sampling rate that you'll be happy with or suits your needs.
For example if you were to select 2 GSa/s and 4 ch and AWG.........few without dropping way down in BW.

However drop down to 1 GSa/s and 4ch there is more choice.

Without some more 'must haves' it's hard to recommend particular models.
A 200 MHz SDS1204X-E with its external SAG1021 AWG option will come in at $1018 and it has 2x 1 GSa's ADC's and 14 Mpts of memory supporting each.

[Martin72]

I would prefer the SDG1032X instead, it is miles awy better than the SAG1021

[Mortymore]

Got the combo siglent SDS 1104X-E scope and awg siglent SDG1032X (wow...actual price only 308€) before.

That price killed me. I hat to sell my TEK210 some 4 months ago, to be able to buy the SGD1032X for about €410. I had waited... I could have kept the TEK.

So, about the MSO5000, If I had the 1054Z hacked today and there was no urge for the MSO5000, I waited for it to mature, and in the meantime buy a decent signal generator at decent price, like the SDG1032X for €308 
Since the 5000 is hackable today, I don't think that will be otherwise in the future (seems to me that's actually a sales point), and maybe the price can go down a little... or at least you could save some money in the meantime to buy a more mature product if you still into the 5000, or decide for another rival at that time.

[tautech]

I would prefer the SDG1032X instead, it is miles awy better than the SAG1021

Yes of course.

When everyone wants the best available for less $ there also is the choice to 'improve' the BW and enable options too.
If we lower the initial cost for KC0PPH to SDS1104X-E and SDG1032X ($499 + $359) and liberate them both to have a 200 MHz 4ch DSO and a 60 MHz 2ch AWG and still some change left from $1k. 

[Martin72]

and maybe the price can go down a little

I don´t think it will happen.
It will be like the DS1054Z.
Actually, you could buy it with all upgrades included.
They (rigol) must do this, because the Siglent SDS X-E series comes with decoding and 100/200Mhz all in.
Today, the MSO5000 stand alone, there is nothing comparable in sight for this price.
Like the DS1054Z in 2015.
In this year, the DS1054Z was a milestone for it´s price.
In my opinion, the MSO5000 is it today too.
For it´s price, we should never forget it.
About 1000 bucks…
A few months ago, we had to let repairing an old waverunner from lecroy, display was exchanged.
Costs about 1400€, only for the display.
You get what you paid for.
Asian manufactors make it possible that every hobbyist can buy a scope.
Not more, not less.
It´s a wet dream buying a scope for a price about 1000€/$ and thinking, this one can compete against "professional" ones.

[nctnico]

Sorry but given the numerous bugs and missing features it sounds more like you bought an expensive trofee to put in a cabinet to display rather than purchasing a tool to get work done. The words ' severely deluded' come into my mind after reading your post.

And I'll repeat myself: a good tool is more productive in a commercial environment and a good tool makes a hobby more fun. There is nothing in the MSO5000 you can't buy from a different brand (new or used). For example: spend $500 on an older 500MHz Lecroy and $350 on a low-end scope (the GW Instek GDS1054B is the DS1054Z killer at this moment. The former is hackable to 200MHz with protocol decoding using a simple key generator in an HTML file).

[Mortymore]

and maybe the price can go down a little

I don´t think it will happen.
It will be like the DS1054Z.

If it will be like DS1054Z... then the price will drop, somewhere in time, judging just by two results from a quick google search

https://www.fruugo.pt/rigol-ds1054z-digital-50-mhz-4-canais-1-gsas-24-mpts-8-bit-de-armazenamento-digital-dso/p-8443548-18180269 (524,54 € drop to 456,12 €)
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html (€ 403.41 incl. 19% VAT)

But I agree that once again Rigol has set a new price point, moving this time from the 500 to 1000 mark. I'll give them credit for being braking prices starters (despite the bugs and all)

EDIT: some historical price change over time: https://de.camelcamelcamel.com/Rigol-DS1054Z-Oszilloskop/product/B01LNY8CL0?context=search
A search can be done for other countries.

[rsjsouza]

Sorry but given the numerous bugs and missing features it sounds more like you bought an expensive trofee to put in a cabinet to display rather than purchasing a tool to get work done. The words ' severely deluded' come into my mind after reading your post.

I have the same impression that Rigol's history is more or less repeating itself. However, let's hope they are much more nimble in fixing bugs on the MSO5000 family.

How's the history going for the 7000 family? I heard many bugs were there as well, thus it would be a good way to test the path ahead for the MSO5000.