Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's

[baldurn]

Instead of focusing on how much better the current generation cheap scopes are or how expensive some other options are, why not accept that things are not perfect just yet? The decoding options are lacking. Simple as that.

The ability to do a fast trigger on the data values of a decoded stream might require some decoding in hardware. However even so the trigger options are quite limited. Everything else could be done in software using free open source decoding libraries. We could even have software triggers, that would maybe not catch every single event, but be good enough for many purposes. There is so much that could be done here.

When it comes to slow ass protocols such as 5 Mbps CAN - any CPU even a MCU can do that in software and catch everything. The "can only be done in hardware" is simply not true in these cases.

I hear people are playing with making Android apps for the Rigol scopes. Maybe we will get open source apps that can do this stuff in a serious way.

[electronics hobbyist]

Instead of focusing on how much better the current generation cheap scopes are or how expensive some other options are, why not accept that things are not perfect just yet? The decoding options are lacking. Simple as that.

The ability to do a fast trigger on the data values of a decoded stream might require some decoding in hardware. However even so the trigger options are quite limited. Everything else could be done in software using free open source decoding libraries. We could even have software triggers, that would maybe not catch every single event, but be good enough for many purposes. There is so much that could be done here.

When it comes to slow ass protocols such as 5 Mbps CAN - any CPU even a MCU can do that in software and catch everything. The "can only be done in hardware" is simply not true in these cases.

I hear people are playing with making Android apps for the Rigol scopes. Maybe we will get open source apps that can do this stuff in a serious way.

I agree with what you said about the imperfect product, but I don't quite agree with the rest.
Because it is closely related to the product price and positioning.
If the price is high, the hardware will be better used, which provides the possibility for future feature expansion.
The software support for decoding and searching you mentioned is the "SignalScan" function provided by Lecroy, which is very expensive to buy alone. Even if the siglent is implemented, based on product positioning, it is likely that it will not be supported on SDS800X HD, but only on their high-end products. So whether the FPGA resources are sufficient determines the CAN ID “filtering” function, and the FPGA resources are closely related to the price.

[eTobey]

That explains things.

You live in virtual world where everything is possible. If your software needs 128TB of RAM and 256 core processor, you deadly seriously coldly "order" customer to buy better computer. ...

Sorry, my bad. I should have used more words for a better understanding. I wrote that i do develop software, but i am not a professional software developer. I know of a miller plateau, and know how to crimp cable, or design a PCB.

Please find attached the data i extracted out of one capture, with scrolling and saving over and over. This would be a bloody easy task to write a routine for! Even allows filtering or whatever. It might be possible to do this with SCPI, but this is buggy. I am pretty sure, i can get 40000 frames out of 25 seconds....

[electronics hobbyist]

But if and when I need to do more serious digital data analysis, I don't plan to buy the logic analyser probe for the SDS800, but a separate USB logic analyser.

Yes, there are many limitations to an independent digital channel system, and I don't recommend it either. If you want a digital channel, you can buy SDS2000X Plus and SDS2000X HD.

[eTobey]

I went back late in the evening and made the little video, and the only thing you say about it is that "my task" was too easy.
Thanks for nothing.

I am sorry that my words came out wrong. I was more laughing about me, that i forgot about this, and couldnt tell the limitations.
See my other post how "well" it works...

[2N3055]

I think this discussion will work better if we can leave the judgement of personal background and qualification out of it.

This discussion was degraded by dozen of completely useless, judgmental, and clueless demands based on unrealistic expectations.
It is NOT irrelevant to know who are you dealing with.

It places statements in the context.

Person in question never came here to ask for the advice what to buy, with set of expectations.
As I said, if he/she/it/they did, I would recommend:

1. Vector or Kvaser CAN analyser. This is tool that exist for this kind of work
2. Some kind of streaming USB analyser (Saelae or similar). Also specific instrument for capturing long sequences.
3. Deep memory Picoscope. They are very popular in car industry for this kind of work, on CAN specifically. I did a test on my 3406D with 500kbit CAN and could capture 29000+ packets in 10 sec period with no problem.  There is export to CSV and Excel. Make note Picoscope is specialty instrument, 3406D has 500MPts, processing is done on your PC, and my I7 CPU and 32 GB RAM PC took 20+ seconds to decode that single capture. It cost 2500€ for Pico alone, no PC price included. But it worked.

No embedded scope I know that is not some 20000 USD can come even close to what eTobey expects on one of the cheapest scopes from Siglent.
My Keysight barely captured 1300 something packets before bombing out. That was 12000 USD MSRP scope at time of purchase few years ago.

So I have zero tolerance about "its easy, why is everybody so stupid, I demand....."

And also you:

How do you know 2000 CAN decode messages are orders of magnitude below memory limit?
Did you notice some other protocols can have more, in order of tens of thousands, but CAN cannot?
Maybe decoding CAN is more memory/resource intensive than what  you think ?
Hint: eTobey speaks about memory needed to store results. How much memory is needed for process itself? Would it be possible but with specific optimizations that would go against how memory management in scope works for other things... Why other scopes also have limits on this that are much less than 20000 that is "easy...
Why is it "expected" that 500€ scope that already does better than 12000 € scope (2000 as opposed to cca 1300 on MSOX3000T) should do not only 50% more that it does now, but should do orders of magnitude because otherwise it is stupid??

What kind of thinking is that?

[electronics hobbyist]

Dear masters,

We're just discussing the issue, relax a bit.

[Martin72]

The maximum frame limit for decoding should be written in the data sheet.

I had looked at all the data sheets earlier, 1000X-E, 2000Xplus, 5000Xplus, 6000A, 800X HD-3000X HD:
The maximum number is only stated in the data sheet of the 2000Xplus, all others lack this information...
The values from the 2000xplus data sheet should also be valid for the other series, I have now looked at all decoders from the 800X HD.
UART, for example, goes over 26000 frames, but then only nonsense is visible, but over 20000 is easily possible (SDS2000Xplus: 15000).
With one exception (SPI), you can generally rely on the information in the SDS2k+ data sheet:
UART 15000
SPI 15000 (800X HD : 3000)
I²C 3000
CAN 2000
LIN 3000

However, I don't want to rule out the possibility that the 15000 can also be reached by the 800X HD at SPI, as I only have this one demo signal which is subject to corresponding limitations.
Edit: slightly disturbances on I²C (the big "A")

[baldurn]

Instead of focusing on how much better the current generation cheap scopes are or how expensive some other options are, why not accept that things are not perfect just yet? The decoding options are lacking. Simple as that.

The ability to do a fast trigger on the data values of a decoded stream might require some decoding in hardware. However even so the trigger options are quite limited. Everything else could be done in software using free open source decoding libraries. We could even have software triggers, that would maybe not catch every single event, but be good enough for many purposes. There is so much that could be done here.

When it comes to slow ass protocols such as 5 Mbps CAN - any CPU even a MCU can do that in software and catch everything. The "can only be done in hardware" is simply not true in these cases.

I hear people are playing with making Android apps for the Rigol scopes. Maybe we will get open source apps that can do this stuff in a serious way.

I agree with what you said about the imperfect product, but I don't quite agree with the rest.
Because it is closely related to the product price and positioning.
If the price is high, the hardware will be better used, which provides the possibility for future feature expansion.
The software support for decoding and searching you mentioned is the "SignalScan" function provided by Lecroy, which is very expensive to buy alone. Even if the siglent is implemented, based on product positioning, it is likely that it will not be supported on SDS800X HD, but only on their high-end products. So whether the FPGA resources are sufficient determines the CAN ID “filtering” function, and the FPGA resources are closely related to the price.

The hardware is good enough as it is. You can already decode in software, but they have just not made it convenient to do so. You can catch a large number of frames and then download this to your computer. Then use open source Sigrok https://sigrok.org/ to decode more than 130 protocols.

The scope is running Linux and could very likely run Sigrok natively. It would be able to decode all those 130 protocols with almost no work done from Siglent. They just need to make an UI for it. Only thing missing would be real time triggering, as that may require FPGA support. But they could easily have a search function through the thousands of captured frames, which in many cases could be just as good and in any case much better than nothing.

Yes I understand that Siglent might be avoiding this solution because the product might become "too good". But what if Rigol did it? Or it became possible on the Rigol through third part open source apps? They might be forced to reconsider. The hardware is ready. It is just an artificial limitation.

[eTobey]

I think this discussion will work better if we can leave the judgement of personal background and qualification out of it.

This discussion was degraded by dozen of completely useless, judgmental, and clueless demands based on unrealistic expectations.

You may want to dismount that horse you are riding there! If you cant find good arguments about or against technical details, and just throw prices at others, then please do not consider ever answering my post again!

I showed you those files, that i cant extract with scrolling and saving. And this scrolling and saving is EASY to realize in software.

If even those expensive pieces cant do this job, then i am happy to not have bought one of those...

[eTobey]

However, I don't want to rule out the possibility that the 15000 can also be reached by the 800X HD at SPI, as I only have this one demo signal which is subject to corresponding limitations.

On that CAN picture: if you scroll, you can get the other missing frames. Too bad, that software cant do this complicated task of scrolling.   

[2N3055]

I think this discussion will work better if we can leave the judgement of personal background and qualification out of it.

This discussion was degraded by dozen of completely useless, judgmental, and clueless demands based on unrealistic expectations.

You may want to dismount that horse you are riding there! If you cant find good arguments about or against technical details, and just throw prices at others, then please do not consider ever answering my post again!

I showed you those files, that i cant extract with scrolling and saving. And this scrolling and saving is EASY to realize in software.

If even those expensive pieces cant do this job, then i am happy to not have bought one of those...

None of them can do that.
I keep telling you that your expectations are not realistic, but you double down on stupid.

I told you, if you were smart enough to ask for advice before buying I personally would recommend you to buy different device for THAT job.
But you bought something and now you want to force it your way.
It is lost battle.

You need to buy protocol analyzer.

In a perfect world, would it be nice that 100 € scope would have 23" screen, super fast processing, 2GPoints of acquisition memory and 32 GB of application RAM. Unlimited processing capabilities..
Yeah hell it would. I would like that.
But is not going to happen soon. Maybe one day.

I tried to explain to you state of the whole industry, nicely at first. But it didn't work.
You throwing tantrums won't change anything.

Just saying. You do what you do.

[eTobey]

None of them can do that.

Yes, because no one implemented that feature properly, or has just limited it big time.

It seems to me, that you probably own an expensive scope, and you dont want others to do the same with their 600€ scope, that you can do with your big bucks scope. 

[Martin72]

It seems to me, that you probably own an expensive scope, and you dont want others to do the same with their 600€ scope, that you can do with your big bucks scope.

That will be the reason.
Exactly 14 years ago I bought my first private DSO, finally they were affordable for hobbyists.



But you couldn't take it seriously, at that time the big brands dominated with corresponding prices beyond good and evil.
Since then, an incredible amount has happened, culminating in the SDS800X HD, which in everyday use doesn't have to shy away from comparison with much more expensive devices.
A small sensation for the money.
I think I can judge this, because in the last few years I have worked with high-end scopes at work, as well as with the cheap scopes that are popular at home.
Uni-T, Hantek, Rigol, Siglent at home, Lecroy, Tektronix, Siglent at work.
As great as the joy is that you can achieve the same result with cheap means in most situations, there are simply limits.
You can't expect a €500 scope to do everything that a €20000 scope can do and just as well.
The limits have already been pushed by Siglent and Rigol, but everything for almost no money is really not possible, that has nothing to do with not wanting a "big" scope.
It has more to do with the fact that the manufacturer has big scopes.
If the competition wasn't so fierce, the SDS804X HD could easily be sold at twice the price (and would have actually made a profit, I doubt that's the case now), it would still be a price/performance bargain.
But that's a modern phenomenon, it has to be able to do everything, have everything and cost nothing - but have good quality and no bugs in the software.

[2N3055]

None of them can do that.

Yes, because no one implemented that feature properly, or has just limited it big time.

It seems to me, that you probably own an expensive scope, and you dont want others to do the same with their 600€ scope, that you can do with your big bucks scope. 

[tautech]

Exactly 14 years ago I bought my first private DSO, finally they were affordable for hobbyists.

A few years earlier I nearly brought one of those.
Instead a 2nd hand Tek TDS2022B became available that I got for similar value.
It's still on the shelf, busted and not working for some years now.

Even a 10yr old CML had much deeper memory than either of them. 

[eTobey]

You can't expect a €500 scope to do everything that a €20000 scope can do and just as well.

Well i dont expect everything! But if there is something it can do, it always drives me crazy, when there is just a little piece missing (like no id/data mask). Like having a nice solararray on your roof, but then the crosssection of the cable is a bit to thin, and that chimney...

[BillyO]

Are you sure you would have to actually pay in advance, because in my case, although they have my order and credit card information, they do not charge the card until the order ships.

Not 100% sure but that's what the guy on the phone said, but RCC do not charge for shipping and Electro-Meters do.  So it ends up being a wash on the cost.

[electronics hobbyist]

I showed you those files, that i cant extract with scrolling and saving. And this scrolling and saving is EASY to realize in software.

You have a good requirement here.

[electronics hobbyist]

The hardware is good enough as it is. You can already decode in software, but they have just not made it convenient to do so. You can catch a large number of frames and then download this to your computer. Then use open source Sigrok https://sigrok.org/ to decode more than 130 protocols.

Yes I understand that Siglent might be avoiding this solution because the product might become "too good". But what if Rigol did it? Or it became possible on the Rigol through third part open source apps? They might be forced to reconsider. The hardware is ready. It is just an artificial limitation.

I don't think oscilloscope manufacturers will completely use open source software. They need autonomy.
If open source is used, there are many restrictions, such as copyright, so embedding open source decoding software is the user's own choice.

[eTobey]

Is there a way to access the files in the scope through LAN or USB? I havent find a way. The manual does say usb can used for connectivity, but thats about it...

[BillyO]

Not 100% sure but that's what the guy on the phone said, but RCC do not charge for shipping and Electro-Meters do.  So it ends up being a wash on the cost.

So, Electro-Meters owner got in touch and we emailed back and forth a bit.  This afternoon he had his sales guy send me a "deal I can't refuse".  Delivery won't be until the 2nd week in May though, but that's okay as no one in Canada can do any better.

[skander36]

Is there a way to access the files in the scope through LAN or USB? I havent find a way. The manual does say usb can used for connectivity, but thats about it...

In the SDS1000X-HD there is an option in Utility->Service-> SMB File Share to start a SMB server.
I am not sure if it is also in 800X-HD.

[tautech]

Is there a way to access the files in the scope through LAN or USB? I havent find a way. The manual does say usb can used for connectivity, but thats about it...

File Manager.
Expand options to reveal Copy/Paste, Delete etc.

[eTobey]

I am not sure if it is also in 800X-HD.

How could i have missed that? Yes its there, but i cant get a connection to it.

I wonder if the password is set up correct. It does not seem to be set? A empty password does not work either. Edit: "reset" is "setting the password" after you entered it. 

Any IT specialist here (see picture)?