Author Topic: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's  (Read 686126 times)

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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1375 on: May 12, 2024, 06:40:02 pm »
This is currently supported on the SDS7000A only. Reason is that Trend and Track are math functions there, which in turn is a consequence of the vastly different multi-window strategy on these scopes.

Thank you for the background! It would be nice if an improved integration of Measurement Track & Trend could be put on the roadmap for the smaller scopes.

For Trend, saving the results seems like an obvious addition. For Track, I would love to see it displayed in the main curve area instead of the little overlay window, to make better use of the display space and allow easy visual correlation with the main traces. The Track change may be a bigger one -- it probably implies that the vertical controls should work on the Track curve too, turning it at least halfway into a Math trace.
 
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Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1376 on: May 12, 2024, 07:28:42 pm »
Thank you for the background! It would be nice if an improved integration of Measurement Track & Trend could be put on the roadmap for the smaller scopes.

I would say the most obvious solution would be to make it equal to the SDS7000A on all instruments, i.e. Trend & Track as math functions. That should be the least effort, and the learning curve when changing from a lower end scope to the SDS7000A would be less steep  :-DD
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1377 on: May 12, 2024, 07:32:48 pm »
... and the learning curve when changing from a lower end scope to the SDS7000A would be less steep  :-DD

It's a steep curve in another respect, unfortunately. ;)
 
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Offline EvgenyG

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1378 on: May 15, 2024, 05:25:40 am »
Yep, best bang for buck.
Shipped one out today to a customer that has worked that out too.  ;)

Ordered a 804X at AppVision today. Mentioning eevblog and paying with BSB/Ac.no directly gets you a small discount, which is very nice of them. I'll be ordering an arb gen some time later this year.
 

Offline EvgenyG

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1379 on: May 16, 2024, 01:48:02 am »
All of the 804X and 814X units have been sold out in Aus, in roughly 1 week since arrival. I was lucky to grab the last 804X. Only the 2ch models left and the pricier 824X. Must be a really good scope after all. Will find out tomorrow.
 

Offline eTobey

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1380 on: May 17, 2024, 03:47:28 pm »
All of the 804X and 814X units have been sold out in Aus, in roughly 1 week since arrival. I was lucky to grab the last 804X. Only the 2ch models left and the pricier 824X. Must be a really good scope after all. Will find out tomorrow.
I would not call it really good, i would call it "neat". It is certainly better than the Rigol ;-). Maybe it is goind to be really good after the new firmware update?
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Offline temperance

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1381 on: May 17, 2024, 05:22:19 pm »
Quote
I would not call it really good, i would call it "neat". It is certainly better than the Rigol ;-).

Based on what?
 

Offline eTobey

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1382 on: May 18, 2024, 06:34:49 am »
Quote
I would not call it really good, i would call it "neat". It is certainly better than the Rigol ;-).

Based on what?
Based on all the bugs and issues i have found.
"Sometimes, after talking with a person, you want to pet a dog, wave at a monkey, and take off your hat to an elephant." (Maxim Gorki)
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1383 on: May 18, 2024, 07:11:45 am »
NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
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« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 03:31:50 pm by Simon »
 

Online tautechTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1384 on: May 18, 2024, 07:36:04 am »
NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
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« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 03:31:59 pm by Simon »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1385 on: May 18, 2024, 07:43:51 am »
Quote
I would not call it really good, i would call it "neat". It is certainly better than the Rigol ;-).

Based on what?
Based on all the bugs and issues i have found.

 :)
I have also noticed many errors and problems between the chair and the device. I hope these can be fixed someday. That's for others to do. Recognizing them on their own initiative can sometimes be difficult due to a person's lack of self-concept.
Siglent cannot fix these, Siglent can fix only Siglent made things.
 :)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 08:40:37 am by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 
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Offline radiohomebrewer2000

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1386 on: May 18, 2024, 02:47:27 pm »
Performa01,
I am responding to a message on the demo topic about 50-ohm termination.  I decided to reply here to leave the fine demo thread alone.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-review-demonstration-thread/msg5490454/#msg5490454

When I got my scope, I was mainly interested in HF frequencies and below.  HF is 3 MHz - 30 MHz. So, 30 MHz and below.   Will using the 1M inputs with the 10X probe or the BNC-T with 50-ohm termination suffice with my SDS814X HD?

Otherwise, I wasted my money.

Maybe a year or more I could consider a better scope that has 50-ohm inputs, but I was fortunate to get the Siglent SDS814X HD when I did.  Does a SDS1000X HD have 50-ohm inputs? 

For a 50-ohm input, what would the maximum power-level you would be willing (not what the specification says) to measure?  I ask because you never want to get near the maximum power handling capability of a device - you always want to leave room. 

Or what about the normal 1M input using a standard 10X probe?   Not what the spec says, but the max you would be willing to measure?   Or the max using a BNC-T with 50-ohm termination?

I have multiple 50-ohm fixed attenuators and a switched attenuator to bring the power levels down.

How hard is it for manufacturers to include 50-ohm inputs?

Thanks.
 

Offline markone

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1387 on: May 18, 2024, 06:10:40 pm »
Simple question : when the new SDS800x firmware will be released ?
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1388 on: May 18, 2024, 06:11:54 pm »
Simple question : when the new SDS800x firmware will be released ?

Cue the "It will be ready when it's ready" responses...  ;)
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1389 on: May 18, 2024, 06:33:56 pm »
Simple question : when the new SDS800x firmware will be released ?

Cue the "It will be ready when it's ready" responses...  ;)

Seems like you beat everybody to it. 😉
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1390 on: May 18, 2024, 07:05:07 pm »
Quote
It will be ready when it's ready

That's actually the most honest and serious answer you can give, because nobody can know that, not even the beta testers. ;)

 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1391 on: May 18, 2024, 07:43:27 pm »
In the present case I don't mind if it takes a bit longer. A couple more bugs were found while testing of the planned release was already underway, and I hope the time extension means that Siglent has decided to add fixes for some of them to the upcoming release.
 

Online tautechTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1392 on: May 18, 2024, 07:43:46 pm »
Performa01,
I am responding to a message on the demo topic about 50-ohm termination.  I decided to reply here to leave the fine demo thread alone.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-review-demonstration-thread/msg5490454/#msg5490454

When I got my scope, I was mainly interested in HF frequencies and below.  HF is 3 MHz - 30 MHz. So, 30 MHz and below.   Will using the 1M inputs with the 10X probe or the BNC-T with 50-ohm termination suffice with my SDS814X HD?

Otherwise, I wasted my money.

Maybe a year or more I could consider a better scope that has 50-ohm inputs, but I was fortunate to get the Siglent SDS814X HD when I did.  Does a SDS1000X HD have 50-ohm inputs? 

For a 50-ohm input, what would the maximum power-level you would be willing (not what the specification says) to measure?  I ask because you never want to get near the maximum power handling capability of a device - you always want to leave room. 

Or what about the normal 1M input using a standard 10X probe?   Not what the spec says, but the max you would be willing to measure?   Or the max using a BNC-T with 50-ohm termination?

I have multiple 50-ohm fixed attenuators and a switched attenuator to bring the power levels down.

How hard is it for manufacturers to include 50-ohm inputs?

Thanks.
Passive probes supplied with the scope are designed to match the scopes 1M inputs.
Unless you use probes designed to work with 50 Ohm inputs it is not a balanced system.

Also be aware scopes with 50 Ohm inputs are limited to a max 5V input.
Entry level DSO's not proving 50 Ohm inputs don't have the input voltage constraints and provide up to 400V input capability.

SDS1000X HD certainly provides 50 Ohm inputs as stated on P8 of the datasheet.
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Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1393 on: May 19, 2024, 12:49:29 pm »
I decided to reply here to leave the fine demo thread alone.
Thank you very much for considering this, though I don’t see this as off-topic. Nowadays, where even entry level oscilloscopes offer bandwidths >200 MHz, the topic of probing / input matching is very important.


When I got my scope, I was mainly interested in HF frequencies and below.  HF is 3 MHz - 30 MHz. So, 30 MHz and below.   Will using the 1M inputs with the 10X probe or the BNC-T with 50-ohm termination suffice with my SDS814X HD?
My test shows that the BNC-T with end terminator reaches a VSWR of 1.5:1 at ~78 MHz. Fortunately, a VSWR of 1.5:1 only means 2% amplitude error (-0.17 dB).

At 30 MHz, the error should be just 0.32 % (-0.028 dB).

The 10X probe on a 50 Ω dummy load would be an alternative, and the capacitive loading could be slightly less (which reduces the error even further), yet I do not recommend this. Passive High-Z probes introduce additional errors because it proves difficult to connect them to a bigger test object (dummy load with some power handling capability) without additional parasitic elements, mainly inductances – especially the ground connection. And then there is the divider ratio, which might already be off by 2%.


Maybe a year or more I could consider a better scope that has 50-ohm inputs, but I was fortunate to get the Siglent SDS814X HD when I did.  Does a SDS1000X HD have 50-ohm inputs? 
Yes, the SDS1000X HD have 50 Ω inputs.


For a 50-ohm input, what would the maximum power-level you would be willing (not what the specification says) to measure?  I ask because you never want to get near the maximum power handling capability of a device - you always want to leave room. 
A sensible limit would be 2.5 Vrms (125 mW). The lowest sensitivity on a DSO with 50 Ω input is 1 V/div, any higher V/div values are not available. Consequently 7.07 Vpp is a sensible maximum for the input signal amplitude.

Specification permits up to 5 Vrms (500 mW) and I think the internal termination is actually rated higher than this, but the signal would exceed the screen height, hence wouldn’t be measurable anymore and excessive heating would degrade accuracy.
 

Or what about the normal 1M input using a standard 10X probe?   Not what the spec says, but the max you would be willing to measure?   Or the max using a BNC-T with 50-ohm termination?
Since all Siglent 10X probes can handle at least 300Vrms you should be able to measure up to 1.8 kW – provided you have a suitable oil-cooled dummy load that doesn’t release the magic smoke when such power levels are thrown at it.

For even higher power levels, there would be 100X and even 1000X probes (not available from Siglent) that can handle even higher voltage (=power) levels.

As stated before, I would not recommend measuring across a dummy load using a passive high-Z probe, whenever alternative methods are feasible.

The BNC-T method is limited by the power rating of the connected dummy load. Since you need a dummy load that can be plugged directly on the BNC-T, the max. power rating will probably be limited to about 5 watts or so.


I have multiple 50-ohm fixed attenuators and a switched attenuator to bring the power levels down.
Yes, of course, the usual method is using a power attenuator, that can handle the required amount of power and outputs an attenuated signal of a few watts, which can be further attenuated to match the maximum power handling of the 50 Ω inputs or any alternative solutions.

The attenuators will naturally introduce inaccuracies as well, these will usually have even higher impact than a not ideal VSWR. But they can be eliminated by error analysis and -correction, whereas errors due to a bad VSWR are increasingly harder to handle with longer cable connections. Therefore, a suitable attenuator of at least 10 dB directly at the oscilloscope input will limit the possible errors (caused by VSWR) to the rather benign figures calculated a few paragraphs above.


How hard is it for manufacturers to include 50-ohm inputs?
There are several different approaches. In early times and with low bandwidth oscilloscopes, a simple 50 Ω resistor connected in parallel to the input path by means of a relay was quite obviously an acceptable solution, even though it could be hardly any better than the external solutions that I’ve shown in my posting.

Serious instruments make a little more effort to provide a proper 50 Ω input path without the input capacitance of the 1 MΩ inputs.

In any case there is an additional relay per input – something that can be significant for a low-cost instrument like the SDS800X HD – all the more so as Siglent doesn’t give up some minimal quality standards, like a two-stage input attenuator, which already requires an additional relay, when compared to a far inferior single stage attenuator design, which other manufacturers seem to prefer in their low-end instruments.
 
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Offline electr_peter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1394 on: May 19, 2024, 04:45:44 pm »
What is minimum rising/falling edge trigger sensitivity level on SDS800X HD?
On some other scopes trigger level needs to be at least 0.25-0.3 div from min/max signal level.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 04:47:15 pm by electr_peter »
 

Offline eTobey

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1395 on: May 19, 2024, 05:33:14 pm »
What is minimum rising/falling edge trigger sensitivity level on SDS800X HD?
On some other scopes trigger level needs to be at least 0.25-0.3 div from min/max signal level.
Its 1/3, and 1 div with noise reject.
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Offline electr_peter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1396 on: May 19, 2024, 05:49:52 pm »
Thanks for info. Detailed manual also states this info under Trigger -> Sensitivity section.
Just expected a bit more sensitivity. Look like sensitivity is more related to trigger noise reject features and is not directly dependent on ADC bits or front end noise.
 

Offline EvgenyG

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1397 on: May 20, 2024, 12:41:52 pm »
Received my 804X today, the last unit from the first batch in Australia.
Tried a few test signals and I can already tell the difference. I can only compare to a Siglent SDS1052DL and an older CRT Hameg HM407.
I have a source of a glitchy signal and the level of detail is just amazing! I could previously only see that level on a CRT scope with a really sharp trace, this little unit has so much more detail. The waveform update rate is very noticable, previously I had to wait until I could spot that glitchy signal and now it is visible straight away. The picture is like someone took a photo on a good CRT scope then photoshoped it to fit on an LCD screen. Super sharp.

Not to mention all sorts of measurements and a true hardware frequency counter.
Rotary enoders feel nice. Solid build quality. Quite heavy for the size - good. Supplied probes PB470 feel a bit cheap/flimsy.

The only thing that works much slower than my Hameg is auto set. Everything else is great. I'm very happy!
 
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Online skander36

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1398 on: May 20, 2024, 04:20:30 pm »

...

The only thing that works much slower than my Hameg is auto set.
...

This is an old issue for Siglent ...
It's like fumbles ... :)
 

Offline EvgenyG

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's
« Reply #1399 on: May 20, 2024, 11:53:21 pm »
This is an old issue for Siglent ...

I wonder what stops them from doing it quickly. There is a hardware frequency counter and they can measure amplitude. What else do you need?
Hameg just does click-click and auto sets in less than a second. Do the higher models, 1000X, 2000X, 3000X have same auto set speed as 800X?

The other thing that I was thinking would be bad was encoder/controls input lag. It turned out to be actually pretty good, not excellent, but really good, above my acceptable level. Again, encoders quality is better than I've seen before. They have a little bit of resistance when turning, which is good because they won't accidentally skip when the encoder is pushed as a button.

Also tested: roll mode works great, but you can see limitations of an LCD screen. It is hard to beat a CRT scope in that, but Siglent have done a great job.
 


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