Small scope needed

[cncjerry]

I travel pretty much every week.  I usually take two of the following:  a roll-up, three section suite carrier that has two pockets, my briefcase, or a half size roller that fits under an airplane seat.  I am boarding group 1 or premier/first class most of the time, but I am always worried about packing something and getting stuck having to check it.  I would hate to have to check a scope and have it bounce around.
 
I took my Tek 3054B once and my OWON SDS7102V, both fit in the roller, but that was a special case.  So I am looking for a small scope that ideally would have good voltage measurements as well.  Good to .01V is fine.  I would like the scope to hit 100Mhz so a 500Gs/S I guess would be ideal.  I would like all this or under $500, 750 if I need to.  If I can't do it for that price then I will probably haul some of my stuff up to the hotel I always use and rent a locker or something.

Most of my current interest is programming micros on an STM32F7 platform, DACs and ADC right now with some GUI that attaches to a custom analog device I am developing.

So I've been looking at hand held scopes and USB types.   I've seen some of the Cleverscope(sic) types but they are expensive.  The analog discovery is interesting but bandwidth limited.  I have one of those DSO quads toys that I've used when I was doing 60Hz signal generating on the DACs just to make sure I had a signal.

Another thing to point out is that I travel with a Macbook Air, three ipads and a high-end MS Surface.  That all fits in my briefcase and generally I've been leaving one ipad behind since I bought one of those external storage/wireless devices.  So in that sense, I can dedicate either the macbook or one of the ipads, surface if I had to, to just the scope.  If the device has simple arb capabilities that would be a plus in the future.

I figure whatever I get has to fit in the size of a 'standard' hard cover book.   I can squeeze the power adapter and probes in somewhere. And since it is all hobby related, all the costs are mine.

Ideas?

[nctnico]

Micsig tablet scopes seems to be a nice fit for your purpose.

[cncjerry]

NctNico, never saw them before.  Interesting but I can't tell if they have a generating capability like some of the Hantek usb scopes that have the built in ARB.

The other thing about the micsig is it has the built in tablet which I don't need.

But nice looking and they meet the size requirement.

[slurry]

Too bad it's way above the budget you mention but a Rohde&Schwarz Scope Rider, 2 channel version with integrated multimeter would be just right for your needs.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rth-productstartpage_63493-156160.html

[Andreas]

I figure whatever I get has to fit in the size of a 'standard' hard cover book.   

Ideas?

Sounds like a PicoScope 2207B / 2208B.
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview

with best regards

Andreas

[eKretz]

Micsig handheld should fit the bill also. I don't think they have one with a wave generator though.

[Fungus]

I figure whatever I get has to fit in the size of a 'standard' hard cover book. 

Picoscopes work with Mac: https://www.picotech.com/

[cncjerry]

What about those Hantek USB scopes?  I hear mostly bad when compared to a full sized scope but for my application?

[guenthert]

[..]
I would like the scope to hit 100Mhz so a 500Gs/S I guess would be ideal.  I would like all this or under $500, 750 if I need to.
[..]

You mean 500GS/s (with 'S' being the non-standard, but generally understood abbreviation of Samples)?  Greetings time-traveler, as you must be from the future then.  I'm sure where you're from you can buy such a scope at the electronics shop 'round the bend; here in the 21st century we can offer you only 240GS/s (for the low, low price of about $1000000): http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/2015/02/10/experiments-and-teardown-of-the-teledyne-lecroy-labmaster-10-100zi-100ghz-240gss-oscilloscope/ .

[AndyP]

That would be 500M samples per second.

+1 for the Micsig, battery powered and usable without need for laptop.  The tablet bit runs Linux, but if entirely hidden from the user.

The picoscope 2000 is a good option, similar price to Micsig,  smaller, but needs laptop and has the AWG.

USB based scopes and logic analyzers often grab the data then transfer to PC, this means you work slightly differently compared to a using a regular scope.
Though the transfer can be quick it's not quite the same as working on a proper scope.
USB3 should reduce the transfer delay, and make make the experiences more similar.


 

[cncjerry]

I travel with 3 iPads, a surface and a macair now.  I was trying to keep the weight down that's why I've been thinking USB type.  The micsig looks interesting, little larger than I'd like but I've been leaving one of the iPads behind lately.  A handheld would fit in my bag in one of the outer pockets. 

Most of the time I am just confirming things so I'm not overly concerned about throughput.   

I'll keep looking but thanks for the micsig pointers as I've not seen it before.

Thanks.

[alank2]

I just picked up the picoscope 2207B last month.  I've been very impressed with it so far and it fits in the top zippered section of my notebook bag easily.  I'm going to post a review about it here eventually when I finish it.

[tautech]

I travel with 3 iPads, a surface and a macair now.  I was trying to keep the weight down that's why I've been thinking USB type.  The micsig looks interesting, little larger than I'd like but I've been leaving one of the iPads behind lately.  A handheld would fit in my bag in one of the outer pockets. 

Most of the time I am just confirming things so I'm not overly concerned about throughput.   

I'll keep looking but thanks for the micsig pointers as I've not seen it before.

Thanks.

Mike did quite a reasonable review recently here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-tablet-oscilloscope-tbook-mini-to1000/msg1092257/#msg1092257

~1hr long but worth watching.

[David Hess]

Greetings time-traveler, as you must be from the future then.  I'm sure where you're from you can buy such a scope at the electronics shop 'round the bend; here in the 21st century we can offer you only 240GS/s (for the low, low price of about $1000000.

He could still be from the past.  Even in the 1980s, DSOs with similar specifications were available as catalog items at a lower cost.

[David Hess]

I usually disapprove of USB connected instruments but the DSOs from Picoscope seem reasonable for your application assuming that your existing portable computer can run their software.

As far as a DSO with the capability of a multimeter, I recommend a separate handheld multimeter (or two) instead if only for safety reasons unless you have the budget for something like a Fluke Scopemeter.

[vltr]

Siglent also makes a decent scopemeter that may come in a bit closer to budget than the fluke:  https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-Handheld-Oscilloscope/dp/B01HAWTRQS

[Fungus]

I usually disapprove of USB connected instruments but the DSOs from Picoscope seem reasonable for your application assuming that your existing portable computer can run their software.

They're much more expensive than a desktop 'scope for equivalent bandwidth, etc. The 'S' part of "DSO" is very limited, too. Most of them drop down to 10MHz sample rate if you want to capture more than a couple of kb of data.

If you need portable and have a laptop though... they look OK.

[MrWolf]

They're much more expensive than a desktop 'scope for equivalent bandwidth, etc. The 'S' part of "DSO" is very limited, too. Most of them drop down to 10MHz sample rate if you want to capture more than a couple of kb of data.

Even my 2013 out of production 2205 MSO with 48kS of memory will drop to 20MSa/s only at 200us while delivering 4-digit accuracy in horizontal measurements over very wide range (and compares well with Agilent U1272A TrueRMS multimeter in vertical):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/?action=dlattach;attach=277983

Your beloved DS1000Z totally falls apart in same test, despite claiming high samplerate it barely touches 3-digit accuracy in single timebase:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/?action=dlattach;attach=277997

Issue in general is discussed here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/

So each time you have to pick exact right timebase or zoom to fiddle with cursors. Real "productive" use of working hours...
Not to mention 5dB signal level difference with Sinc=ON|OFF tested here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/?action=dlattach;attach=280275
Since it was discussed yesterday did check my Pico for same issue. No difference Sinc vs ETS. All values correct and spot on. Just for your personal pleasure I will format this test and post in the evening.

And if we now forget my old entry level box then new deep mem Picos are plainly a monsters for the money:
https://www.picotech.com/library/oscilloscopes/deep-memory-high-performance-oscilloscopes
5GSa/s in 20ms timebase by having 2GSa of onboard memory, not bad IMHO:


Even most basic 100MHz scope from Pico now has 128MB of memory. Memory is main thing that will keep sample rate up. But as seen in Rigol case it is of little use when actual calculations are done off 1.2kB screen buffer. Thats 0.0012MB.

[Fungus]

They're much more expensive than a desktop 'scope for equivalent bandwidth, etc. The 'S' part of "DSO" is very limited, too. Most of them drop down to 10MHz sample rate if you want to capture more than a couple of kb of data.

Even my 2013 out of production 2205 MSO with 48kS of memory will drop to 20MSa/s only at 200us

48k of sample memory. That's "limited", right?

I did goof the sample rate, sorry. I meant 10Mhz bandwidth in capture mode. 20MSa/s sampling rate equates to 10MHz bandwidth if we're being generous (most engineers would want at least 2.5x sample rate for a given bandwidth).

Your beloved DS1000Z totally falls apart in same test

a) Nobody here even mentioned the DS1054Z.
b) It's not the same 'test' at all. A DS1054Z has 24Ms of memory. It will happily fill that memory at the full 1GS/s sample rate.

it barely touches 3-digit accuracy in single timebase:

And ... please stop posting that stuff in every single thread which mentions oscilloscopes. It's a non-issue that nobody cares about.
a) It's normal across most DSOs, not just the DS1054Z (you even made a list of 'scopes where it happens).
b) We don't use our oscilloscopes that way. It's natural to zoom in on areas of interest when we look at horizontal measurements.

And if we now forget my old entry level box then new deep mem Picos are plainly a monsters for the money:

$7000 for a 500MHz bandwidth oscilloscope... 

[MrWolf]

48k of sample memory. That's "limited", right?

It's out of prod model. I intended to replace it with Rigol after hearing "expert" advice on this very forum. What I got was 1.2kS scope instead of 48kS for my intents and purposes (which are working with very different frequencies in single timebase - mechatronics)

I did goof the sample rate, sorry. I meant 10Mhz bandwidth in capture mode.

What you mean by "capture mode". If you mean continuous USB streaming then all starting 2206B do 9.5MS/s in regular software. 3000 does same and 125MS/s via SDK.

b) It's not the same 'test' at all. A DS1054Z has 24Ms of memory. It will happily fill that memory at the full 1GS/s sample rate.

And whats the use if it cannot do automation with it (measurements, decoding)?
Maybe ok for mostly digital hobby use when you have lots of time.
In garden showel is also ok, you can dig up whole garden by yourself if nothing better to do...
I usually order planning excavator, stuff gets done surprisingly fast 

a) It's normal across most DSOs, not just the DS1054Z (you even made a list of 'scopes where it happens).

Not a single DSO showed up in tests with such "performance", screen buffering or not. For example with siglent I'm not sure 70kB can be called "screen buffer".

b) We don't use our oscilloscopes that way. It's natural to zoom in on areas of interest when we look at horizontal measurements.

No, you do not use it that way or perhaps people used to CRO where accurate absolute measurements usually cannot be done. In fact I'm not sure you use anything at all because never saw single screenshot or test data from you. Only "humanitarian" argumentation. Otherwise you would realize zooming does not help much with sharp rises and low frequencies.

$7000 for a 500MHz bandwidth oscilloscope... 

For scope with 2G of onboard RAM. Name a few other in same price class?

Edit: In fact just checked for comparable scope from Tek:
Cheapest/highest mem Tek I could find was DPO5054B: 500MHz, 5GSa/s, 125MB for $15,300
Same memory as €579.00 2208B from Pico 

[Fungus]

 

a) You know I actually recommended a picoscope in the fifth post of this thread, right? I never mentioned the DS1054Z even once.

b) You've already been warned by mods for endlessly posting this crap in every single oscilloscope thread.

[MrWolf]

I understand, math is hard. But in datasheets can look up that $15k Tek will drop off 5GSa/s wagon at 2.5ms/div. 8x worse.

I never mentioned the DS1054Z even once.

They're much more expensive than a desktop 'scope for equivalent bandwidth, etc.

What else could you mean? Most non-hackable BW scopes are pretty much in same price class.

b) You've already been warned by mods for endlessly posting this crap in every single oscilloscope thread.

Mods? Where? Not in personal messages. Maybe I missed too busy doing actual tests on my tech.

[JPortici]

b) It's not the same 'test' at all. A DS1054Z has 24Ms of memory. It will happily fill that memory at the full 1GS/s sample rate.

to be fair, the newer pico 2000 has 64/128MS of memory.
If you set up the application to full memory capture, after one trigger it will sample 128Meg samples, at the happily sample rate of 1 GS/s, then transfer them. so both your statements become misleading.
Didn't want to mention it because you were right in the first post, if you want continous sampling it will drop to 10 MS/s or whatever (more on the SDK depending on pico model) because USB is the bottleneck. but that's true for any scope you want to connect to the computer to have a continous stream, will it be over usb, ethernet, bluetooth, wifi, ...

and of course if you are in "normal" mode and acquire 128MS at a time i suspect that the wfm/s rate will drop to a minimum, but that's true for every acquisition system as to fill 128 MS at a 1 GS/s rate it will take 128ms.
infact when you leave sample rate / memory depth to auto settings you have to be very careful, scope will always try to achieve max wfm/s on screen at the expense of the real data you get after you stop and look at acquisition

to the OP, bewave of the AWG in the pico, it's quite crappy and limited in amplitude, but not more than other i've seen in scopes. and at least you have a gazillion bytes of waveforms to choose to.. replay acquisition to AWG etc.

[MrWolf]

to the OP, bewave of the AWG in the pico, it's quite crappy and limited in amplitude, but not more than other i've seen in scopes. and at least you have a gazillion bytes of waveforms to choose to.. replay acquisition to AWG etc.

That's what I'm using it for - for example can do some math processing on actual signal. Feed it into inbuilt AWG. Replay and do some even more weird stuff. Final product to CSV and into outboard AWG if need high freq or Aim-TTi WA301 for voltage boost. Also can feed modulation input of my SDG2000X.

[alank2]

Here is where I keep mine - in a small plastic bag in my notebook bag.  It was bought because it can give real performance without me hauling around a desktop scope.

Here is the bandwidth testing I did on it:

2207B bandwidth testing:  I connected my Siglent SDG2082X (upgraded to 120 Mhz) to channel A of the picoscope with a 50 ohm cable and a 50 ohm passthrough terminator.  The 2200 series does NOT have a 50 ohm termination option, but I think some of Pico's other models do.  Here is a list of the peak to peak measurements from 10 to 120 MHz:  10=990mV, 20=970mV, 30=947mV, 40=917mV, 50=888mV, 60=854mV, 70=822mV, 80=801mV, 90=792mV, 100=783mV, 110=777mV, 120=762mV.  I can't go any higher than 120 Mhz and it is still above the -3 dB point of 707mV!  I then connected it up to the fast edge signal coming out of a DS4014 and measured rise/fall times of 1.81 nS on CH A and 1.87 nS on CH B, so around 190 Mhz using the 350/x formula.  I also tested the SDG2082X 120 Mhz signal through the 10X supplied probes and it was 738 mV with the probes, still above -3 dB. The probe fall time on the fast edge was 1.1 nS.  All of this was very impressive given it is only rated for 70 MHz!