BenchVue 3.0 now available – ask the BenchVue team anything

[kaz911]

Hi Kaz911,
Not quite - You have a couple of options. The licenses all have two letters.


FIRST LETTER- This dictates how much flexibility you want in moving the license around
- If you want it to just stay on one Machine, choose F ( Fixed )
- If you want it to move around different PCs, Choose T ( Transportable )
- If you want to host it on a server so multiple people have non-simultaneous access, choose N ( Network )
In terms of Price it is , F < T < N

SECONDLETTER - choose how long you'd like to use the license
- If forever, then choose a P ( Perpetual ). This includes 1 year of updates. After one year, you can continue to use your license but you need to pay a renewal fee to get updates for another year. The license types and pricing ( which will be very nominal ) for this renewal fee isn't yet available on the web but will be in the coming months.
- If you only need it for one year, choose Y ( Year ). This is generally 1/3rd the price of the perpetual. After 1 year, you can repurchase the license again and receive the updates for another year.

Your options therefore are
FP,TP,NP and FY,TY,NY

I know this is confusing right now, but we will we updating our webpages to make this very clear and provide upfront pricing for each on of these so its easy to pick and choose. Generally speaking they run from about <$100 to ~$300

Ok that was how I thought it was. So you can buy a perceptual license for X and keep the usage right or you can lease it for 1/3 of the price.

But if you want updates you still have to pay 30% - same price as for those who "lease".

Question - if I have perceptual can I then upgrade when I want - so wait 3 years and then buy another 1 year upgrade?
Comment: It seems slightly unfair to pay the same for updates (30%) - as the ones leasing the software for the same price as I would pay for updates. And to be honest - paying 30% for updates is very much on the high scales - that would require Keysight to seriously speed up development for me to consider that an option. Before I would not even consider paying $300 for Flow renewal so I think in any case I'm out.

And btw - 30% is not a "nominal" fee for renewal. Please look up the definition of Nominal... In my book Nominal would range in this case from 1-10%. Calling 30% nominal is an abuse of the word

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

HI Kaz911,
Thanks for the honest comments, that's why we're here - to get some real feedback from users. I"ll try to address for comments the best I can.

Linux - We're paying close attention to it but you are right, it will be an architectural change to make BV cross platform.
USB based products Meters/Scopes/SMU's - stay tuned, it's on its way - soon
Not enough instrument feature coverage - Yes, we hear you here. This is something we are going to be actively addressing. The reason for not have rich HW feature support is that initially most BV customers were using their instrument front panel for setup and turning to BV for data transfer. This changed in a major way over the years and we are going to be addressing it.

It sounds like you use DMMs , Scopes and Power supplies a lot. When we begin development on the next version of these apps, I'd be personally interested in getting your feedback on them if you're up for it and have the time ( that goes for others on the forum as well. We're actively looking for customers to work with us to give us feedback on apps in development )

Thanks
Sid

Any plans for a Linux version? Only some ladies from administration are using windows. All engineers are using Linux here...

I think BV will be hard to move to an independent platform. BV is so tied into .NET that even I'm surprised...  But I would more call it .NET abuse than .NET usage... If it was use - it would follow Windows standards - it absolutely does not follow any common GUI standards.

But yes BV2017 seems like an even bigger disappointment. So far only about 30-35 real products supported (and deviations thereof) - so it is rather limited.

 Not only that - support for each instrument is very limited to basic functions. Very few hardware options are usable. Like on my N6700 with power modules - BV can't use any of the fast acquisition modes which makes the high speed data logging functions in the 6700 - well unusable... So while it does support the N6700 power modules - it only supports a subset of the features - and a really small subset. Same goes for the Scope app etc. - basic functions supported to some degree. Anything above that - no support.

I think it is about 60-70% of times I want to log something - I find out that BV does not do that and ends up being faster to do in Python or Excel with command expert. And it is faster to do in Excel as BV is so sluggish and bloated due to the architecture chosen.

So saying BV supports 100's of instruments is marketing speak. It has very limited support for 100's (actually 34-36 product lines) of Product codes usually with only most basic integration with a few exceptions. And where it would be great for things like Keysights USB based products Meters/Scopes/SMU's - there is ZERO support. There you are still tied up with app's with latest release in 2013.

It is a very random product. And I'm sorry to sound so harsh - but really it has very little value for me - and I do a lot of long time data logging (days/weeks/months) - some at ultra high speed some very slow. But I have a hard time finding a use for BV.

I actually prefer the display on my 34465A when logging compared to the display on the BV. And once BV runs you have limited visualisation on the 34465A - that is for once not BV's fault but due to the implementation of remote logging.

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Fair enough - We're made some improvements here. Part of the reason why there are processes running in the background is for licensing and auto detection of instrument you connect to your PC. There is also other SW that comes along with BenchVue such as IO Libraries, Command Expert, Waveform Builder, etc which is perhaps what the others folders are ... But once again, fair comment.

Sid

Is the new BenchVue just as cancerous as the last? Does it install 10-11 different folders under Program Files? Does it add itself to startup? Does it still have several processes running 24/7 using RAM? Does it still put a tray icon in my taskbar that's there even if the app is not running? Is the uninstaller still useless, leaving most files and registry keys behind?

I guess nobody cares because it's always installed on someone else's computer? 

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Just the apps, the platform itself does not need a license. Also, 30 day trials are available directly from within the platform ...
Sid

Do we need a license for the BenchVue itself or just the individual apps?

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Hi srce, understood that the automation aspect isn't valuable for you. Just want to point out in case there was confusion around Test Flow. It is no longer a subscription price - it's included with each app license now.
Sid

Am I correct in thinking that the 2017 version requires a £200 license for the Oscilloscope Control module and another £200 license for the DMM module, but these were both free (at least with basic functionality) in the 2016 version?

Yes, applications in BenchVue 2017 require a paid license. However, with each license you now get full access to Test Flow for your app to allow easy measurement automation without programming. This application previously was only available as a subscription license for $300/year.

Thanks, but that's unfortunately not a feature I'm interested in, so looks poor value for me, particularly given the subscription model.

[kaz911]

Sorry for being harsh - but after having developed high performance database/internet software for 25+ years i'm now back at hardware. And I'm surprised at the path the BV team has chosen. Not only have the platform decisions made it hard to be flexible - it must also be a nightmare to maintain already with each app in its own executable - probably with little sharing between each module apart from logged data and control? Am I right?

I would personally rip up the fabric completely and isolate all functions. So the Scope App (or maybe is really should be a DLL) - should ONLY have functions to interpret the measures, trigger measurements and a way to format queries. Everything else should be in the main app - even communications with each instrument and on screen presentation of the measurements in a cohesive fashion - not random like now..

Every instrument should be in classes - defined in XML or similar. So a base XML for Power supplies providing the main communications fabric. (On/Off/Set Voltage/Current / Set limits etc) - then maybe a model file for each specific standard function type over and above standard. And finally a product specific model file that could define which basic functions are supported + standard functions + the last bits of "non-standard" behaviour specific for that exact model  - And then of course open up for 3rd parties to "Inherit" from the XML and build their own Products...

I know a FEW of the modules do have XML definitions for the products - but again - waste a lot of space as the whole definition for each instrument is in each XML. I have an older Signal Gen - which I compared to the XML in the 4428C - and it would take maybe 15 minutes to change the XML to suit my older Signal Gen.. If the spec for the XML was public and I knew more about SCPI but 99% of the commands listed in the XML are compatible with my older Signal Gen - but it is not supported....

And since most products in the same group share a heck of a lot of SCPI the above approach would probably work quite well.....

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Hi Kaz911

But if you want updates you still have to pay 30% - same price as for those who "lease".

Not quite- if you "lease", then you just buy the 1-year lease again to use it. If you buy the perpetual, you don't pay 30% for updates. We are working out final details here but it won't be same as the 30% lease charge.

Question - if I have perceptual can I then upgrade when I want - so wait 3 years and then buy another 1 year upgrade?

You can wait to renew your license after 3 years, but renewal price will be slightly more than the standard renewal price. Sorry I don't have definite numbers for you, as this will go into effect 1 year from now and we're finalizing it.

Before I would not even consider paying $300 for Flow renewal so I think in any case I'm out. And btw - 30% is not a "nominal" fee for renewal. Please look up the definition of Nominal... In my book Nominal would range in this case from 1-10%. Calling 30% nominal is an abuse of the word

Test Flow doesn't need to be renewed at $300/year - that was the old model. With the 2017 licenses, Test Flow is included with it and there is no extra purchase or renewal fee.

Ok that was how I thought it was. So you can buy a perceptual license for X and keep the usage right or you can lease it for 1/3 of the price.

But if you want updates you still have to pay 30% - same price as for those who "lease".

Question - if I have perceptual can I then upgrade when I want - so wait 3 years and then buy another 1 year upgrade?
Comment: It seems slightly unfair to pay the same for updates (30%) - as the ones leasing the software for the same price as I would pay for updates. And to be honest - paying 30% for updates is very much on the high scales - that would require Keysight to seriously speed up development for me to consider that an option. Before I would not even consider paying $300 for Flow renewal so I think in any case I'm out.

And btw - 30% is not a "nominal" fee for renewal. Please look up the definition of Nominal... In my book Nominal would range in this case from 1-10%. Calling 30% nominal is an abuse of the word

[kaz911]

Hi Kaz911

But if you want updates you still have to pay 30% - same price as for those who "lease".

Not quite- if you "lease", then you just buy the 1-year lease again to use it. If you buy the perpetual, you don't pay 30% for updates. We are working out final details here but it won't be same as the 30% lease charge.

Question - if I have perceptual can I then upgrade when I want - so wait 3 years and then buy another 1 year upgrade?

You can wait to renew your license after 3 years, but renewal price will be slightly more than the standard renewal price. Sorry I don't have definite numbers for you, as this will go into effect 1 year from now and we're finalizing it.

Before I would not even consider paying $300 for Flow renewal so I think in any case I'm out. And btw - 30% is not a "nominal" fee for renewal. Please look up the definition of Nominal... In my book Nominal would range in this case from 1-10%. Calling 30% nominal is an abuse of the word

Test Flow doesn't need to be renewed at $300/year - that was the old model. With the 2017 licenses, Test Flow is included with it and there is no extra purchase or renewal fee.

Ok that was how I thought it was. So you can buy a perceptual license for X and keep the usage right or you can lease it for 1/3 of the price.

But if you want updates you still have to pay 30% - same price as for those who "lease".

Question - if I have perceptual can I then upgrade when I want - so wait 3 years and then buy another 1 year upgrade?
Comment: It seems slightly unfair to pay the same for updates (30%) - as the ones leasing the software for the same price as I would pay for updates. And to be honest - paying 30% for updates is very much on the high scales - that would require Keysight to seriously speed up development for me to consider that an option. Before I would not even consider paying $300 for Flow renewal so I think in any case I'm out.

And btw - 30% is not a "nominal" fee for renewal. Please look up the definition of Nominal... In my book Nominal would range in this case from 1-10%. Calling 30% nominal is an abuse of the word

Ahhh ok so the maintenance fee will not be the same as the *Y prices. Ok then i'm slightly more calm. I just got the impression you had to buy another *Y license to get maintenance.

ok so while you contemplate what the renewal prices should be Nominal as in the real meaning of the word would be a great thought.. And I did not think the Flow license cost was nominal

[blackdog]

Hi Group 

Hi Sid.BenchVueTeam,
This is not personal!

BenchVue is no software to be proud of!

I use is know for more than two years and it's annoying.
This is about the logging with te HP 34461A.

Look at this picture, i'am measuring my lab 10V reference and zeroed the DMM, it is easy to make the middle of the screen "0" and to adjust the span so that its easy to readout the value.
Look +-5uV and not the BenchVue garbage  like 5,1e-6...
The drift of the value, is the meter, not my reference :-)



And now a screenshot of the: be proud of BenchVue software!
Look at the value on top, realy 100pV resolution???
Leftsite, compare this to my first picture, nicely done, good job hobby coders 
And look at the bottem, placing text on top of each other, but it can be worse...



Here i'am measuring temperature of a small oven, resolution 1uC 
Scale 200nC/div. 
Look at the value on the left site of the screen, you must be kidding...



BenchVue is using almost 400MB of memory and is using 16 processes...
Hobby coders!!!

Kind regards,
Blackdog

[Sparky]

Hi Sparky,
Yes that is correct. After 1 year, the license will continue to work but app won't be updated with the latest enhancements. A nominal yearly renewal/subscription/upgrade fee is needed to get updates for another year. We're currently working on providing literature that describes the update process that will take effect in April 2018.

Sid

@Keysight BenchVue Team: I'm finding it hard to find details of the new licensing scheme also.  Overall, I'm a bit concerned.

I bought a paid license for the BenchVue DMM application, which provided a 2 seat (movable) license and no mention of expiring upgrades to the DMM app.  In effect (to my knowledge) it was a one-time purchase on my part with (presumably) unlimited update of the BenchVue DMM app (at least while that application existed).  It seems the new BenchVue 2017 DMM app provides a 1 seat license with 1 year of "unlimited" updates...end of story.

So what happens after that 1 yr of updates?  I didn't find details about a subscription or having to renew each year, etc., but it appears something like that is the case.  Please clarify or provide a link to website with all the necessary details.  Thanks!

Thanks for the clarification, Sid.  Plus, your other post to describe the F/T/N and P/Y options is very helpful as explanation.

While the word is still out on license/subscription/upgrade pricing, my concern this moment is how my previous 2 seat Transportable DMM app license will be "upgraded" to BenchVue 2017.  Will it become a single seat Fixed license?  If so, it means I have to buy another license, or pay/upgrade to Transportable (which seems a pain just to switch between a laptop and workstation) or Network.

Can you clarify how our existing licenses are upgraded to BenchVue 2017?

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Hi Blackdog
None taken ... You guys throw quite the punch, but that's why we're here
I'll be the first to admit that our charts in apps need an update. Some of our meters do make measurements down to 10^-9/^-12/^-15 although not in the DMM series. Bear with us as we address these concerns. I"ve already forwarded your comments and pics to our dev team as additional feedback on this topic.

Do keep sending us such feedback
Sid

Hi Group 

Hi Sid.BenchVueTeam,
This is not personal!

BenchVue is no software to be proud of!

I use is know for more than two years and it's annoying.
This is about the logging with te HP 34461A.

Look at this picture, i'am measuring my lab 10V reference and zeroed the DMM, it is easy to make the middle of the screen "0" and to adjust the span so that its easy to readout the value.
Look +-5uV and not the BenchVue garbage  like 5,1e-6...

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Sparky,
Your existing PRO license will be upgraded to 1 Transportable Perpetual ( -TP ) 2017 license. This will allow you to move them between PCs. Let me know if that doesn't answer your question.
Sid

Can you clarify how our existing licenses are upgraded to BenchVue 2017?

[TheAmmoniacal]

@Sid

We might be a bit harsh, but that's because we care! And hopefully, the reason why you are here. No use for compliments, eh? Most of us use it or have tried it, that must mean something.

Your engagement with us is much appreciated, and that alone beats the competition in my book 

[blackdog]

Hi Sid,

/Complane mode
Don't get me started... 

Several time i have made remarks about the HP3458A DMM, its not included in the DMM software! 
And most time's i get this as responce:  It actually IS different than other DMMs. It’s a beast to program
And my repley is then: Do you now understand why the HP 3458A should be supported!
That's why you need real coders! get all the 3458A possebility's in the BenchVue software, please don't start telling us it is difficult, that your job(Keysight) to code it well!

If i look at BenchVue, (sorry) i do not see the quality HP stood for all these years...
The pictures of the interface errors, i told KeySight more than 2 years ago also.
I find it unbelievable that such errors are still present in the software.

Sid think with me, how do you think i feel about the BenchVue software?
Do I have point out KeySight these simple software errors, this is realy silly?
Who the hell is in charge of this program, if i whas CEO, I would have dismissed many managers.
My opinion is that, the coders/managers have no idea of what engeneers wants to see in BenchVue.

And don't get me started about the licensing, i had a unlimited licence and now it is 1 year...
O yes, i heart someware that KeySyght want to become a software company, maybe BenchVue is the start of it all...

Brrrr

Yes i'am a happy custumer! 
friendly mode/

Kind regards,
Bram 

[blackdog]

Hi Sid,

Are you ready for more? *grin*

Test setup
1x 34461A measuring a oven temperature (5K NTC Sensor)
1x 34461A measuring a 10V LAB reference
1x 34401A measuring a 10V portable reference

The 34461A measuring the oven.



The 34461A measuring the 10V LAB reference.



The 34401A measuring a 10V portable reference.



Quad instrument vue, QUE!
Is scaling for the KeySight coders a big problem? this is realy silly, real helpful this view.



Let try horizontal view Whoehahahahah



And vertical view, i'am speechless...



And yes i know i can grab the trace and move him, but stil i cant view the hole trace!
Do you want me to go on?


Kind regards,
Bram

[nfmax]

Can I point you at:

Justin Talbot, Sharon Lin, and Pat Hanrahan An Extension of Wilkinson’s Algorithm for Positioning Tick Labels on Axes, 2010. URL http://graphics.stanford.edu/vis/publications/2010/labeling-preprint.pdf

Worth a read!

[blackdog]

Hi Sid,

Are you still there 

My last pictures about the BenchVue Interface, then i hope you understand my frustration.
These pictures i had to make with my camera, sorry for the lower quality.

It is posible to change the vertical scale, but the way to do it is anoying.
You right-click on the vertical scale, wait and then carefully move up or down with the mouse.
The scale changed than in odd steps...



And now for something completely different... hahaha
The scale setting has now a resolution of YES, 100 Atto Celsius, Whe have a winner! 



In this last picture you can see that there is a posibility to do a "auto scale", but most of the times i do not want this.
Usually I would have scaled the single image to a smaller image, including the graticule.



I hope that my pictures and remark helps to make BenchVue a better product.
And yes, i have more remarks about the software, but I hope that other users share their experiences on this forum.


Kind regards,
Blackdog,
Bram

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Hi Blackdog
Yes very much so ! Have read all the messages ( they come directly to my Keysight email ) and have 4-5 to get back to including yours. Sorry, just been swarmed and need to carve out some time to provide thoughtful responses to all the questions and feedback.  Not scared away - on the contrary, really appreciate the honest interaction !

Sid

Hi Sid,

Are you still there 

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Hi Blackdog,
Regarding the 3458A DMM - we hear that pretty often and is one of the most requested improvements to the DMM app. Putting on my Product Manager hat for a second, the reasoning really is what you described. the 3458A is not really compatible with the SCPI interfaces we have for the other DMMs supported in our app. Hence the effort required to add it is significantly more than say the effort to improve all our DMM graphs, data logging speed and visualizations. Support for 3458A will likely be added, we just have other basic enhancements we've prioritized over it for the short term ( that will benefit all DMM users ). Not really offering up an excuse but providing some explanation for why its taking a while to add support.

Where I dont have an explanation to offer up is your comment regarding those silly issues you've pointed out for over two years . Just an apology and a promise that we are addressing it.

Sid

Hi Sid,

/Complane mode
Don't get me started... 

Several time i have made remarks about the HP3458A DMM, its not included in the DMM software! 
And most time's i get this as responce:  It actually IS different than other DMMs. It’s a beast to program
And my repley is then: Do you now understand why the HP 3458A should be supported!
That's why you need real coders! get all the 3458A possebility's in the BenchVue software, please don't start telling us it is difficult, that your job(Keysight) to code it well!

If i look at BenchVue, (sorry) i do not see the quality HP stood for all these years...
The pictures of the interface errors, i told KeySight more than 2 years ago also.
I find it unbelievable that such errors are still present in the software.

Sid think with me, how do you think i feel about the BenchVue software?
Do I have point out KeySight these simple software errors, this is realy silly?
Who the hell is in charge of this program, if i whas CEO, I would have dismissed many managers.
My opinion is that, the coders/managers have no idea of what engeneers wants to see in BenchVue.

And don't get me started about the licensing, i had a unlimited licence and now it is 1 year...
O yes, i heart someware that KeySyght want to become a software company, maybe BenchVue is the start of it all...

Brrrr

Yes i'am a happy custumer! 
friendly mode/

Kind regards,
Bram 

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

nfmax, great resource, thanks ! I personally am not familiar with this labeling algorithm but will get our usability team's eyes on it to see if they are ...
Sid

Can I point you at:

Justin Talbot, Sharon Lin, and Pat Hanrahan An Extension of Wilkinson’s Algorithm for Positioning Tick Labels on Axes, 2010. URL http://graphics.stanford.edu/vis/publications/2010/labeling-preprint.pdf

Worth a read!

[blackdog]

Hi Sid, 


If i read your remarks aboud the HP3458A my feeling tell me it is not gonna happen

About the user interface, i hoop to see it fixt next week 


And then this, maybe its helps to get some perspective, for my Rigol scoop i installed today Rigols Ultra Scoop, what a peace of sh..
The lagging of the interface... totaly unusable.
If you install it, it ask you to switch of a important Windows Service, are they out of the Vulcan minds at Rigol...

Looking at BenchVue then, its not so bad 

Kind regards,
Bram

[Sid.BenchVueTeam]

Can't really promise it next week, but it'll be done  .

Regarding 3458A, honestly it's on my list of things to add for the DMM App but further down. I don't think we'll be adding it in 2017. 

Sid

Hi Sid, 


If i read your remarks aboud the HP3458A my feeling tell me it is not gonna happen

About the user interface, i hoop to see it fixt next week 


And then this, maybe its helps to get some perspective, for my Rigol scoop i installed today Rigols Ultra Scoop, what a peace of sh..
The lagging of the interface... totaly unusable.
If you install it, it ask you to switch of a important Windows Service, are they out of the Vulcan minds at Rigol...

Looking at BenchVue then, its not so bad 

Kind regards,
Bram

[Messtechniker]

Using Ultra VNC for remote access from a PC or Real VNC from a smartphone
will not display the BV graphs.  . See attachment.
Could others please check this to ensure it's just not only me.

If so, please make BV compatible with VNC programs.

A bit later:
Restarted BV after even on the local PC the graph died.
And now UVNC displays the BV graph nicely.
This seems to me a bit of a hit and miss affair.

[blackdog]

Hi Messtechniker,

I use Microsoft RDC for viewing BV, no problems with that.
But, i wil test Real VNC for you and get back about if it works.

Kind regarts,
Blackdog

[blackdog]

Hi Messtechniker and Sid (I hope you arte still watching)


I installed Tight-VNC on my measuring computer, because RealVNC demands a account for testing, NO WAY! 

So i make a connection on my workstation with the RealVNC Viewer and at the first look its fine.
I also installed the RealVNC viewer in my ASUS Nexus 7 tabled, see the picture below, its works but VNC not so responsive as i want it to be...


And now for Sid, this is my 34401A measuring a 10V reference, look at the text on the left side and on top, on top should be this value: 10.00004 and its shows 000010 VDC how about silly...
But actually I think something else 

Kind regarts,
Blackdog