Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 14963362 times)

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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33925 on: June 28, 2019, 11:25:51 am »
Hmm maybe, but that's when the extra and continuous suction power of the powered ones come into their own. Manual is a one shot wonder and unless its also a heated one. demands that you grow an extra hand as well. [emoji23]

I've got one of the heated 'one shot' suckers (Metcal branded no less) and frankly it's a bit of a hit and miss affair. OK on single sided boards, so-so on double sided PTH, anything with more layers and it's less effective than good solder braid and pliers/forceps.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline BU508A

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33926 on: June 28, 2019, 11:56:15 am »
As a manual desoldering pump I have this one (the ss-02 model):



Can be found here: http://www.engineer.jp/en/products/ss01e.html or on Amazon


And the more sophisticated one is this one:

https://www.tme.eu/en/details/sp-1010dr/desoldering-stations/solder-peak/




“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33927 on: June 28, 2019, 01:17:25 pm »
He is a regular at Weinheim too and out to fleece me every time. And I know some of his sources, which are places I have worked with or at.
But once I witnessed some parts being rescued from him: when he appeared to collect those two placement automats, they had been miraculously stipped bare of servos, cameras, sensors etc.  ^-^

This one?   

https://ukw-tagung.org/

Hope I can manage to visit it this year.
Btw, Rainer Förtig is located near Darmstadt, is he a part of the show, too?
Not sure about Förtig. Rosenkranz stopped attending some years ago. Emsstrom (also Ebay) is a regular. HTB from Schiffdorf near Bremen also.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33928 on: June 28, 2019, 01:30:48 pm »
Did some bits on the 5334B at lunch. Blew a new hole in it and installed the BNC patch and added labels from my crappy label printer. This is not a museum grade restoration for sure - it's a functional one.



Unfortunately the crisped on crud on the right appears to be epoxy and it won't come off so it's going to have to stay. Apart from that I've done the external clean as well



Just need the prescaler and diode rings now which are on their way via Royal Fail right now.
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33929 on: June 28, 2019, 01:46:53 pm »
I've found that there is a HUGE variance in quality and effectiveness with the handheld solder-suckers; the original full-size Solda-Pullt is still the yardstick. People complain that it's too big; and it can be unless you're willing to do the disassembly necessary to be able to heat the pad & move it into position quickly. But that size is what makes it effective; you need that volume and big springs to develop useful vacuum.

One of my first China-direct purchases, back in the late 90s, was a couple of knock-offs of the full-size Solda-pullt; I figured for what they cost (2/$9 with shipping from DHGate or DealExtreme), I could have one and a spare and still be money ahead. They were TOO GOOD a copy; aside from the branding ( Zhong-Di ZD-108 ), they were the same all-nylon construction, with 1/4-turn disassembly and even a spare Teflon tip. 20 years later, I still have both of 'em.

I have a good power desoldering station in my Aoyue 2702; it works well but is just a lot more hassle to maintain than the ZD-108.

mnem
*off to take a handful of pillz*
Yes, powered ones are far more difficult to clean and can be slow to heat up but there is nothing like them for big jobs and speed especially on large parts like multipole connectors for example. I have tried heat and wick with wiggle, manual suckers, even have a manual sucker which is heated directly and nothing compares to the powered sucker in my book. I've damaged traces and pads with wicks using heat and wriggle method with wriggling lifting or even tearing traces.

Yup... that's why I still have the 2702. I follow a few simple rules: Use a big enough iron at the RIGHT TEMP FOR THE SOLDER, work quick, don't try too many times, move on to the next tool in your arsenal. If the sucker doesn't work the first time, apply fresh solder/flux & try again. If no joy, then time to move on to the power station, take time to set it up right, then try again. Usually you'll get to where you can wiggle the leg in the hole with a touch of the iron to just the pin. If still no joy there, time to move on to destroying parts & extracting pins. As always, you use your judgement as what is the likeliest route to success.  :-+

              

If the part is a dip or QFP, I usually cut the legs flush with the package using an X-Acto knife, then extract the remains using tweezers & iron. Fucking VIAs and microscopic pads will always pull apart otherwise. (Yes, I know I still have the CMOS battery on the board; I didn't care because "Hello! Chip was dead already!", and I didn't want to lose the coin cell on my horror of a bench while I waited for the new chip to arrive.)  :palm:

The single most important pitfall I can think of is DON'T CHEAP OUT ON YOUR SOLDER-WICK. Chem-Wick is the only one I TRUST TO RECOMMEND; no other brand has "Not let me down" with QC issues at one time or another. You CAN buy cheaper stuff but you HAVE TO TEST IT EVERY TIME, EVERY ROLL on scrap boards and often your technique has to change to be able to use it successfully.

When using solder-wick, DO NOT BE TEMPTED to turn up the heat. Use a bigger iron AT THE RIGHT TEMP FOR THE SOLDER. This is the only way you keep from wiping microscopic traces off the board with 0.5mm pitch QFPs and such. This is a STM32F205 in LQPF100/0.5mm pitch that I did completely by hand with iron (My MLiNK S4, back when it was brand-new and magical and I was still in love with it  :P) and drag-soldering to reinstall. Sorry for the crappy finished pic, but the only one I could find post-op was a crop of the board after my WS2812 mod.  >:D

   As a manual desoldering pump I have this one (the ss-02 model): Can be found here: http://www.engineer.jp/en/products/ss01e.html or on Amazon

   And the more sophisticated one is this one: https://www.tme.eu/en/details/sp-1010dr/desoldering-stations/solder-peak/

I've had a number of the aluminum-body solder-suckers and never cared for them; too small, not enough vacuum. Single-handed operation is easy; just a matter of changing your workflow. I've gotten in the habit of placing my trash-can under the bench just to my left (or right, as the work demands) whenever I do rework. I just push the plunger up against the bottom of my workbench; it dumps the crap right into my trashcan and I don't even have to reposition my hand off the trigger button. You do it a few times and it becomes almost an autonomous function.  ;)

But I DO like the idea of that silicone tube as a consumable "sealing element". I need to see if I can mod one of my ZD-108 blue beasties that way.  :-+ Your desoldering station is pretty much identical to the one built into my Aoyue 2702. Again, more assache than it's worth most of the time.  :-//

The outcome depends on the annular ring size, track sizes and the via quality. If you look at the high density boards none of those are in your favour.
Quite so.
Still, there are many that use default annular rings and drill sizes and are too inexperienced with rework to know how big a difference just these simple things can make.

I've given up critiquing PCB's here as advice on this seems to fall on deaf ears.
I only hope these novices have to rework their own designs a few times to get them to work and then learn from the school of hard knocks !

Indeed. I think most professional "design engineers" tend to just chuck the board over the fence and not give a shit.
They should spend some time fixing shit. And make them use a firestick and a Tandy solder sucker just to hurt them
:D

Quick case study. QRP Labs QSX. Check out the pissy little pads for the encoder pins, the tiny annular rings everywhere and the worst of all, the clear bad soldering on the header pins on the rear of the board due to the drill size vs pin size - the solder just sits on the top and there's hardly any annular ring. Ick! The pads are so small it's no possible to hand solder them properly. Bugger one and the whole board, including all the prepopulated SMD parts go in the bin.

   I've got this one unpopulated but look at the huge difference. This was designed to be fixed:      There is no excuse for the former not to be like the latter. Edit: another really good board:   

THIS! 1000x THIS!!! One of my first jobs as an engineer I was the "young guy" they always sent to the floor for troubleshooting, rework and process control. Time and again the problems revolved around trying to make it too compact. The application didn't need it; we had oodles of space to work with. It was simply trying to get as many PCBs out of a sheet as they could. They were working with older parts placers, and their precision wasn't that great. They had unskilled labor force and high turnover, because they weren't willing to pay for skilled workers. So rework rate was high, as were the number of "holes" in the conveyor due to stopping to clear jammed placers.

Just by actually listening to the workers and what they had problems with, we revised the design to lose 2 boards per sheet, made the boards approx 10% larger on one edge, and used the space to decrease density so we could use the right size drills & pads (slightly oversized so our older machinery and unskilled workers could "hit da ho' " the first time instead of the board needing to loop through or go to rework) and actual productivity increased by almost 40% just because we weren't breaking parts placers and a backlog of rework boards all the time.

Sometimes you need to hit the bean-counters where it hurts to get their attention: right in the beans.  ;)

mnem
*Feeling almost-human*
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 01:50:05 pm by mnementh »
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33930 on: June 28, 2019, 02:14:10 pm »
As a manual desoldering pump I have this one (the ss-02 model):



Can be found here: http://www.engineer.jp/en/products/ss01e.html or on Amazon


And the more sophisticated one is this one:

https://www.tme.eu/en/details/sp-1010dr/desoldering-stations/solder-peak/




I have the same powered one, works like a dream.
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33931 on: June 28, 2019, 02:42:14 pm »
Grandmother raised Dobies... when we got our stray dobie/wolf/shepherd mix she said we should crop her; mom & I vacillated until it was well too late. Glad we did; when she grew up with her coarse black fur & heavy jowls she would've been all wrong. And a big thick tail like a alligator, when she was happy Miss Kitty would knock you over with it.  :-DD

mnem
*Sigh* She was the best dog ever...  :'(

Reese is a red nosed mix and he has a tail like a whip.  Mrs GreyWoolfe is very thin skinned and his tail really bruises her.  Plus he knocks things off of coffee tables, shelves and Christmas trees with it.  It's like he doesn't realize it's part of him and it never stops moving.  We aren't sure what he is mixed with but we think, looking at pics on the interwebs, that it might be cocker spaniel.  He is a good size, about 74 pounds.  Stoopit as a stump but very loving and protective.  Has a good bark on him for anyone that comes within range of the house.

On solder suckers, I used to do rework with them years ago. As in high end Pace rework stations. I have watched people suck a pad off a £20k board with a nice ASIC on it more than once and it gets scrapped straight away. At the time that was more than their salary. The boards were very nice quality ones too. It takes two seconds to do a better job.

In the history of using soder wick thousands of times I have never destroyed a pad. And every time I can clean the board up with it so it looks like a component had never been installed.

Almost the same thing.  Remove solder with ZD-985, checking for the right size tip before turning on, remove component and clean with Chem-wick solder wick and then IPA using Kim-wipes and an old soft toothbrush.  Like it never even happened.
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 

Offline nixiefreqq

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33932 on: June 28, 2019, 04:00:58 pm »
hey bd

at your suggestion watched the first 5 episodes of the "inbetweeners".

figured that at my advanced age it would be impossible to relate.  BUT some shit never changes.

very well written and as much fun as the first season of benidorm

thanks!
free range primate
 

Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33933 on: June 28, 2019, 04:34:57 pm »
This is my main desoldering tool and it works well in most situations except on multi-layer boards with high thermal mass such as large ground plane. Then it's solder wick with liquid flux or just plain old heat and (carefully) pull. I rarely damage a pad but every once in a while you get over zealous. It happens.  :-//



Other stuff:

The Lady Copper got an appreciation award yesterday from the NYPD for years of service (Over 30 years).   :-+ :-+

The 7904 CRT arrived at my local PO today but too late to get out for delivery. I suppose I could go over to the PO and pick it up but I just got back from running errands and it's hot outside and I don't feel like going out again. 

This guy was in the garage this morning. It's one of our smallest species of snake. Northern ring-neck snake. Non-poisionous and completely harmless. Unlike all the nasty crap that you guys in OZ have that want's to bite and kill you.  :scared: This guy didn't even try to bite me when I picked it up and put it outside.

An old gray beard with an attitude.
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33934 on: June 28, 2019, 04:37:30 pm »
You don't need to use one of these machines for very long before its paying for itself with the cost of decent wick these days to say nothing of the time you can save especially if you have many items to de-solder at a time.

This is the link to my machine, so glad I got this I can tell you.

https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station-uk-eu-plug/dp/SD01384?mckv=sZ5p7NarZ_dc|pcrid|224654335881|kword||match||plid||slid||product|SD01384|pgrid|50784539401|ptaid|pla-371097197905|&CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-SHOPPING&gclid=CjwKCAjw9dboBRBUEiwA7VrrzZbQ3NRpsKUPVf31yqcRjgZpRmBOGvxDE3Ougo1fyOLGgJh7Ar1RsxoC4zAQAvD_BwE
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33935 on: June 28, 2019, 04:39:29 pm »
hey bd

at your suggestion watched the first 5 episodes of the "inbetweeners".

figured that at my advanced age it would be impossible to relate.  BUT some shit never changes.

very well written and as much fun as the first season of benidorm

thanks!

Glad you are enjoying it. It makes me cringe about my youth somewhat though :)

 

Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33936 on: June 28, 2019, 04:41:10 pm »
You don't need to use one of these machines for very long before its paying for itself with the cost of decent wick these days to say nothing of the time you can save especially if you have many items to de-solder at a time.

I'll give you the point on wick cost. I get through a roll a month. That's about £75 a year.
 

Offline bsudbrink

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33937 on: June 28, 2019, 04:52:10 pm »
I'm a PACE nut myself (see below).  Around here (Maryland), we get black rat snakes.  They'll bite if you're really stupid with them (not venomous), but the thing they really do is STINK!  They give off some kind of "musk" when threatened.  We call it rat farts.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 04:54:30 pm by bsudbrink »
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33938 on: June 28, 2019, 06:08:40 pm »
You don't need to use one of these machines for very long before its paying for itself with the cost of decent wick these days to say nothing of the time you can save especially if you have many items to de-solder at a time.
I'll give you the point on wick cost. I get through a roll a month. That's about £75 a year.

I have the same exact machine in my Aoyue. It's a good desoldering station, and when I need to do lots of pins I'll fire it up. But for a quick resistor or somesuch, I still prefer my little blue beastie.  :P

Agreed on the Chem-Wick $$$. But it's not an "either-or" thing; it's a "use more or use less" thing. The solder-sucker and the desoldering station both save you cost in solder-wick, but the latter costs you in assache and filters.  :-//

It's like anything involving mass-production: For a one-off quickie use hand tools & git 'er done. For a million pins, take the time & set up the power tools.

Grandmother raised Dobies... when we got our stray dobie/wolf/shepherd mix she said we should crop her; mom & I vacillated until it was well too late. Glad we did; when she grew up with her coarse black fur & heavy jowls she would've been all wrong. And a big thick tail like a alligator, when she was happy Miss Kitty would knock you over with it.  :-DD

mnem
*Sigh* She was the best dog ever...  :'(

Reese is a red nosed mix and he has a tail like a whip.  Mrs GreyWoolfe is very thin skinned and his tail really bruises her.  Plus he knocks things off of coffee tables, shelves and Christmas trees with it.  It's like he doesn't realize it's part of him and it never stops moving.  We aren't sure what he is mixed with but we think, looking at pics on the interwebs, that it might be cocker spaniel.  He is a good size, about 74 pounds.  Stoopit as a stump but very loving and protective.  Has a good bark on him for anyone that comes within range of the house.

On solder suckers, I used to do rework with them years ago. As in high end Pace rework stations. I have watched people suck a pad off a £20k board with a nice ASIC on it more than once and it gets scrapped straight away. At the time that was more than their salary. The boards were very nice quality ones too. It takes two seconds to do a better job.

In the history of using soder wick thousands of times I have never destroyed a pad. And every time I can clean the board up with it so it looks like a component had never been installed.

Almost the same thing.  Remove solder with ZD-985, checking for the right size tip before turning on, remove component and clean with Chem-wick solder wick and then IPA using Kim-wipes and an old soft toothbrush.  Like it never even happened.

If I'm doing the cleanup and handing it off to someone else, I'll do all that badunka-dunk. If I'm doing the whole job myself I rarely get that anal about it; a little leftover solder doesn't bother me as long as it isn't all scaly. A fresh dose of rosin & heat will fix 'er right up, and it makes a better prepped pad anyways. 

That was Missy/Miss Kitty to a tee. We actually got in the habit of putting the Christmas tree up on a table because of her; a habit that again served us well with small children/fingers.   :-DD

I'm a PACE nut myself (see below).  Around here (Maryland), we get black rat snakes.  They'll bite if you're really stupid with them (not venomous), but the thing they really do is STINK!  They give off some kind of "musk" when threatened.  We call it rat farts.

   Yeah, I bought my Ayoue 2702 because of the integrated fume extractor; had I known how short-lived the compressor in them would be (relatively; I left it running for hours sometimes back then), I'd have used a big charcoal-filtered fan like yours to save its useful hours for hot-air rework. SRA Solder did right by me and got me a replacement compressor for only $40, though, so I can't complain.

Garter snakes. Similarly harmless, will try to bite if really provoked but only raspy teeth. Primary defense mechanism is to poop on you; it reeks like rotten anchovies and skunk. I've woke up camping with them curled up inside my sleeping bag; usual resolution is to crawl out out of the bag gingerly so as not to startle it, then gently upend the bag so it falls out without pooping in there. Once they wake up & realize their newfound space heater has vacated and taken the comfy hole along with, they'll slither off in search of pill bugs & crickets to eat.

mnem
*currently bringing breakfast & cold medicine to my father in his motel room*
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 06:22:58 pm by mnementh »
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Offline bsudbrink

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33939 on: June 28, 2019, 06:26:24 pm »
I'd have used a big charcoal-filtered fan like yours

That was at the insistence of SWMBO.  Flux fumes don't bother me (maybe I should be more concerned).  I actually like the smell.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33940 on: June 28, 2019, 06:52:27 pm »
I like the smell too.

I won’t go near Aoyue. Bad experience with their stuff before. 936 clone. Ugh horrid thing.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33941 on: June 28, 2019, 06:54:20 pm »
I like the smell but also have gotten one of the filters as well and as yet still to use it  :-DD
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33942 on: June 28, 2019, 06:56:11 pm »

This guy was in the garage this morning. It's one of our smallest species of snake. Northern ring-neck snake. Non-poisionous and completely harmless. Unlike all the nasty crap that you guys in OZ have that want's to bite and kill you.  :scared: This guy didn't even try to bite me when I picked it up and put it outside.


I expect he was just glad to get off that rough concrete floor  :-DD
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33943 on: June 28, 2019, 07:26:16 pm »


FUKKIN' A-DIDDY!!!

mnem
That is all.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33944 on: June 28, 2019, 07:50:07 pm »


About a week ago... Did I press too hard?

There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33945 on: June 28, 2019, 08:06:03 pm »
That looks like the cheap drill bits from Rapid if you leave them in the sun for too long  :-DD
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33946 on: June 28, 2019, 08:17:13 pm »
Trying to drill around corners, eh?  :-DD

I was crowing because not only did I manage to EZ-Out that little fucker; I did so AFTER breaking the drill off flush. I peeled a bit of the screw off with the flush nippers; this let me get a bite on the drill. 

:box: Yeah... yeah! Take THAT you little bastard!!! I NEVER give up!  >:D

In Related News...



I'll be damned... just a head gasket.

When it died, I could hear a valve wheezing just as it spun down; this is a pretty distinctive sound that usually means either a shattered reed and associated head/piston damage, or a failed poppet valve which may or may not also have similar associated damage and/or be unobtanium. This is the first time I've EVER had one die that way where it wasn't pretty much fatal.

Looks like the head gasket had a blowout due to die-stamping irregularities in the valve plate or careless assembly, then the blown-out chunk migrated into the reed valve area, holding it partly open, which made that wheezing sound. Heck, even the cylinder wall still has honing marks.  :-+

mnem
*toddles off in search of gaskets or gasket material*

[EDIT] This looks like the ones I want... don't think I wanna buy Min 100 pieces tho, even if they are only 29¢ a set...  :o  [/EDIT]
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 08:32:53 pm by mnementh »
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33947 on: June 28, 2019, 08:33:13 pm »
I would just like to take this opportunity to say that UK customs are wankers. There I said it. I feel better now.

(package stuck somewhere between Heathrow and Royal Mail with no tracking updates for 10 days now  >:( )

This really puts me off picking up anything from the US that doesn't ship UPS (as they do their own clearing!)
 

Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33948 on: June 28, 2019, 08:45:21 pm »


FUKKIN' A-DIDDY!!!

mnem
That is all.
I done more than enough of this to well know you deserve/earned this:



Why don't I ever have such luck ?  :-//

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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #33949 on: June 28, 2019, 08:55:36 pm »
I would just like to take this opportunity to say that UK customs are wankers. There I said it. I feel better now.

(package stuck somewhere between Heathrow and Royal Mail with no tracking updates for 10 days now  >:( )

This really puts me off picking up anything from the US that doesn't ship UPS (as they do their own clearing!)

I feel for you. Similar experience with US customs, but "only" 1 week....not 10 days.  :palm:
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 


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