Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Kosmic]

If you have no capacitance meter a genuine DE-5000 is a good choice. If you already have a good LCR meter the ESR 70 is a good option.

If you have a good LCR meter why would you need a ESR70 ? smaller ? easier to manipulate and take less place on the bench ?

[Robert763]

If you have no capacitance meter a genuine DE-5000 is a good choice. If you already have a good LCR meter the ESR 70 is a good option.

If you have a good LCR meter why would you need a ESR70 ? smaller ? easier to manipulate and take less place on the bench ?

To measure ESR 
I said LCR meter not LCR ESR meter  your other points are a good reasons too.

[bd139]

I am not writing off the ESR-70. I just feel it is an inferior tool for diag-ing electronics that need repair, plus a capable home lab instrument as well, which nobody would suggest is true of the ESR-70. I own both. I kept the DE-5000 with me when I crossed the border. That is how much better I like the DE-5000. Dunno how much more simply I can state it.

Don't get me wrong... I was tickled pink back in the day when I bought my ESR-70... I pre-ordered and literally waited 2 months for the ESR⁺ upgrade model to be available. And it was my go-to instrument for years when troubleshooting, part of which was time working as a repair technician in a shop.

But now, compared side by side with the DE-5000, and based on numerous threads right here on eevBlog, I have absolutely zero reservations aboot recommending the DE-5000 over the ESR-70/ESR⁺. None whatsoever. That is my considered opinion as someone who has used both, and used the ESR-70 in a commercial repair environment where time is the enemy.

My issue was with the comparison of the LCR45 to cheap chinese stuff whilst crowing how good the DE-5000 is when on realistic evaluation criteria owning a DE-5000, be it a genuine one or a Chinese one is a liability from what I can see.

On the subject of the ESR-70 I don't own. I don't own one because some parts I had lying around plus Jay_diddy_b's excellent ESR meter circuit did the job for about 2 hours work which was good enough for anyone's requirements. Realistically I rarely ever test ESR of capacitors. It's more an interest then an engineering perspective. I think med's approach is probably better for this if you want certainty on a repair: replace the whole damn risk. If you measure each cap out and then replace the bad ones, that only replaces the bad ones today, not tomorrow. Otherwise you spend your life repairing things and not using them for forward engineering which is a real interest of mine.

Mini rant and I'm going to step on some toes here as well but a lot of people here on EEVblog, including a lot of actual engineers wouldn't know a decent instrument if they had it in their hand. What happens is we get cult-like following of specific instruments which turn into back patting circle jerks without any practical evaluation which would stand up in a commercial environment. People make recommendations on forum buzz rather than thorough technical evaluations. A fine example is the irrational and illogical love of Brymen meters with terrible backlights, horrible statefulness problems, slow as molasses performance and really bad quality control issues. I appreciate Joe Smith's contribution to this as he's found more warts and tried to get them fixed at least. I'd rather do an independent evaluation.

Edit: to be clear on the last point this is a problem with humans rather than this forum. Every specialist forum is inflicted with the same issue. I'm not sure if there is a term for it or something.

[mnementh]

The Peak kit is very nice and just works, not as capable all-round as the DE5000 but lower cost, small and automatic.

The DE-5000 is cheaper than the ESR-70/ESR70+; I have both. The LCR-45 costs even more. I see that PEAK has come down on their prices; but not that much. 

Bang/buck the DE-5000 is the best out there by an order of magnitude. I like it better than my ESR-70/ESR Plus, which I've had over a decade. It offers both ESR to several digits and  Tan δ, which parameter can be directly compared against a MFR's datasheet. Also, the LO DCR function can be a very useful diag tool.

Get the kit with the TL-21 & TL-22 adapters; optionally the AC adapter if they don't try to rape you on it. I haven't bothered because life of an alkaline battery is awesome with this thing, and the isolation inherent in battery operation is a complete no-brainer to me.
Typically, the DE-5000 can be had for ~US$90 bare, ~US$110 with the TL-21 & TL-22. 

There is also a kit with fitted case if that floats your boat; it usually adds aboot $30-40 to the kit price. I've been tempted, but so far I just couldn't stomach that hideous shade of red, which appears to be the only color it comes in.



Cheers,

mnem
 

Peak has somewhat excellent reputation for support, calibration and repair. Worth paying extra for that in my mind.

Yeah, sure if you live in the UK. The rest of the world, the cost of shipping makes it a moot point. Also... quite frankly... the ESR-70/ESR+ just does't have the resolution or half the features of the DE-5000.

LCR-45 I can't comment on; no hands-on experience. But demo videos quite frankly don't inspire confidence that it is materially better than the usual Cheap & Cheerful Chinese complete Tester; just better calibrated with a more extensive compensation table. Yes, that has value... but I still feel the DE-5000 is a better value overall.

I mean... if you have the money to throw at both, get both. But if only one... the DE-5000 for sure. It'll be your go-to in no time. There's a reason I left the ESR-70 in my trailer and brought the DE-5000, even tho it takes up 4x the space.

mnem
 

How much resolution do you need for ESR?
As far as capacitance goes 4 digit resolution is no use without accuracy.
Also the prices we have both quoted so far are for copies of the IET DE-5000. These have no proper specification. A genuine IET DE-5000  or even DER one is another matter.

If you have no capacitance meter a genuine DE-5000 is a good choice. If you already have a good LCR meter the ESR 70 is a good option.

EDIT, got distracted while typing and BD139 had made a better response

First off, the IET version is the knock-off or the wannabe or whatever; they are and always were a rebadge of the DER-EE DE-5000. Once DER-EE started selling directly in appreciable numbers, IET got pissy aboot it and tried to remarket themselves, offering the same unit in a slightly different package as supposedly the "New & Improved" for twice as much. You can find all this in the threads right here on eevBlog.

Secondly, the DE-5000 is not an ESR meter and you know it. It is a proper LCR meter. That entire part of the argument is irrelevant to this discussion; namely, which one is the better tool.

I suggest that perhaps you and bd139 should both get one and use it side by side with whatever you have that is better before you make such dismissive statements; I own both and have had their guts in my hands, and I have used them both.

The ESR70 doesn't even really become a usable instrument without modding which adds another 20-30 quid to the cost; the alligators and tiny short leads that come on the stock unit are nearly unusable except for testing loose radial-lead caps and coils with wires or pins sticking out.

Essentially with zero firsthand experience, IMO, statements like yours border on unsubstantiated FUD.

mnem
 

[bd139]

Not really.

Show us the repair, calibration, support and service options and the initial specification report.

It's in the same category as Banggood hardware on that front. You have no good idea what you have in your hands meets any specification to start with. Unless you have any standards of course, at which point those would need to be checked against another standard 

Not only that they don't even have a reliable supply chain into most countries. Another reason you usually have no idea what you've got until it arrives. "What is a genuine DE-5000" is a difficult question to ask in current times.

[xrunner]

Mini rant and I'm going to step on some toes here as well but a lot of people here on EEVblog, including a lot of actual engineers wouldn't know a decent instrument if they had it in their hand.

Can you say that here? Oh you just did! 

[mnementh]

If you have no capacitance meter a genuine DE-5000 is a good choice. If you already have a good LCR meter the ESR 70 is a good option.

If you have a good LCR meter why would you need a ESR70 ? smaller ? easier to manipulate and take less place on the bench ?

The ESR70 is a turd to use unless you mod it with shielded leads and probes or tweezers, which instantly makes any accurate MFR calibration null and void.

Diag-ing a PCB...? Puh-leeze. More of a dicksore than a help. You get used to sticking bits of 0.100" header pin in the alligators just to have something to probe with.

mnem
 

[mansaxel]

Couldn't disagree with this more.

Nice rant. So, which one should I get?

The LCR45 is the only one that has a comparable feature set, yet it loses out on 4-wire measurement. It's still impressive, and I'd buy it in an instant if I had not been given the DE-5000 as a birthday present.  Eleshop has the LCR45 for 78€ ex VAT, which is a very good price, and inside the EU. An especially good price compared to their price for the DE-5000, which is a whopping 180€. 

I probably would go for the DCA75 instead, since the LCR vector is occupied at my bench. The DCA75 fills a hole in my instrument park, and that is what counts.

And I still like my DE-5000 

[Cerebus]

As far as capacitance goes 4 digit resolution is no use without accuracy.

Effective four digit resolution is all you're going to get on pukka quality bench meters. Keysight's second fanciest, the E4991B, only comes in at 0.65% basic accuracy. Expecting more than two, perhaps three digits out of a budget meter would be unrealistic, any extra digits on display would be mere window dressing.

[bd139]

Couldn't disagree with this more.

Nice rant. So, which one should I get?

The LCR45 is the only one that has a comparable feature set, yet it loses out on 4-wire measurement. It's still impressive, and I'd buy it in an instant if I had not been given the DE-5000 as a birthday present.  Eleshop has the LCR45 for 78€ ex VAT, which is a very good price, and inside the EU. An especially good price compared to their price for the DE-5000, which is a whopping 180€. 

I probably would go for the DCA75 instead, since the LCR vector is occupied at my bench. The DCA75 fills a hole in my instrument park, and that is what counts.

And I still like my DE-5000 

Well the best meter is always the one that's in front of you on the bench so that's answered. Until it dies of natural or unnatural causes, then buy the LCR45

The DCA75 is interesting but it doesn't have the voltage compliance available to do "interesting" measurements on a lot of devices so I'd save the cash until a cheap curve tracer turns up (if that ever happens). You can't use it for looking at avalanche voltages for example. Might be more interesting to use a couple of bench supplies and a couple of DMMs and make a manually cranked one. But it would be a good timesaver if you have to quickly characterise a lot of parts.

There's always the UTP analyser: https://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/utp05-atlas-it-network-cable-tester.html 

(I have a cheap one which isn't very good and is misleading so I've learned not to make mistakes instead  )

[mnementh]

...Mini rant and I'm going to step on some toes here as well but a lot of people here on EEVblog, including a lot of actual engineers wouldn't know a decent instrument if they had it in their hand. What happens is we get cult-like following of specific instruments which turn into back patting circle jerks without any practical evaluation which would stand up in a commercial environment. People make recommendations on forum buzz rather than thorough technical evaluations. A fine example is the irrational and illogical love of Brymen meters with terrible backlights, horrible statefulness problems, slow as molasses performance and really bad quality control issues. I appreciate Joe Smith's contribution to this as he's found more warts and tried to get them fixed at least. I'd rather do an independent evaluation.

Edit: to be clear on the last point this is a problem with humans rather than this forum. Every specialist forum is inflicted with the same issue. I'm not sure if there is a term for it or something.

bd, don't you see that this is exactly what I'm saying? I have used both. I own both. The ESR-70 is a chore to use; it requires bodging in day-to-day use that makes any accuracy claims from the factory utterly pointless. They still haven't released a model that has usable probes or tweezers; the aftermarket has done this.

No, I have no problem standing against the crowd on this one. I've used both, and I know their quirks. I like the DE-5000 better because I've used it, not because of what others say; its simply get the job done better plus it can serve as a passable, entry-level home-lab LCR meter.

What others on eevBlog say, along with the fact I've tested it against thousands of new & used caps myself against the ESR70 and my Fluke 189, does give me good reason to trust it to serve as the latter.

Cheers,

mnem

[Cerebus]

Edit: to be clear on the last point this is a problem with humans rather than this forum. Every specialist forum is inflicted with the same issue. I'm not sure if there is a term for it or something.

"Group-think", I'd guess.

[bd139]

As far as capacitance goes 4 digit resolution is no use without accuracy.

Effective four digit resolution is all you're going to get on pukka quality bench meters. Keysight's second fanciest, the E4991B, only comes in at 0.65% basic accuracy. Expecting more than two, perhaps three digits out of a budget meter would be unrealistic, any extra digits on display would be mere window dressing.

Indeed.

Also it's even more painful than that, especially at the lower end of the range. The fixture, even if it's a 4-wire has a hell of a lot of parasitic effects around it potentially from stray inductance and capacitance and proximity to other parts. And of course the non-ideal parts of the DUT as well such as lead inductance and inter-winding capacitance. Glory to the lumped abstraction. Not.

And then there's the measurement frequency to contend with as well which hits only 100KHz on some of these units. If you look at the average LCR meter the bridge ADC only has so much resolution and with small parts you need to crank that frequency right up to even 100MHz before you bring the bridge's ADC into any reasonable range.

At that end a VNA makes a better LC meter.

And after all of that if you design your circuit with the tolerances in mind then none of it matters other than it's within the tolerance range. I literally only use the LCR meter for parts I've had to manufacture myself such as inductors and measuring variable capacitors I've nicked out of stuff that aren't labelled (and sometimes I don't even bother with that) .

[bd139]

...Mini rant and I'm going to step on some toes here as well but a lot of people here on EEVblog, including a lot of actual engineers wouldn't know a decent instrument if they had it in their hand. What happens is we get cult-like following of specific instruments which turn into back patting circle jerks without any practical evaluation which would stand up in a commercial environment. People make recommendations on forum buzz rather than thorough technical evaluations. A fine example is the irrational and illogical love of Brymen meters with terrible backlights, horrible statefulness problems, slow as molasses performance and really bad quality control issues. I appreciate Joe Smith's contribution to this as he's found more warts and tried to get them fixed at least. I'd rather do an independent evaluation.

Edit: to be clear on the last point this is a problem with humans rather than this forum. Every specialist forum is inflicted with the same issue. I'm not sure if there is a term for it or something.

bd, don't you see that this is exactly what I'm saying? I have used both. I own both. The ESR-70 is a chore to use; it requires bodging in day-to-day use that makes any accuracy claims from the factory utterly pointless. They still haven't released a model that has usable probes or tweezers; the aftermarket has done this.

No, I have no problem standing against the crowd on this one. I've used both, and I know their quirks. I like the DE-5000 better because I've used it, not because of what others say; its simply get the job done better plus it can serve as a passable, entry-level home-lab LCR meter.

What others on eevBlog say, along with the fact I've tested it against thousands of new & used caps myself against the ESR70 and my Fluke 189, does give me good reason to trust it to serve as the latter.

Cheers,

mnem

Yeah I don't own an ESR-70 as mentioned 

See my previous comment which clarifies my usage of LCR meter. I don't measure a lot of stuff because the measurement isn't useful.

Edit: please excuse my confrontational answers here. Nothing personal. I popped a rib this afternoon 

[mansaxel]

Edit: to be clear on the last point this is a problem with humans rather than this forum. Every specialist forum is inflicted with the same issue. I'm not sure if there is a term for it or something.

I'd argue "group think" comes close.

Hugging his DE-5000

[BU508A]

Yo guys,

do whatevever you want with your DE-5000 LCR45 thinges.

I'll take a shower now and then open this box which contains a Yokogawa DL1200A.
Not very convinced about the packing, though ...

[mnementh]

mnem

[Ice-Tea]

So, eh, it'll tell me if a cap is like, really, really toast or in more or less decent shape, right? Because that's really all I'm after....

*silently closes door behind him*

[bd139]

mnem

£22 sold! Don’t care if it breaks. Doesn’t need to be accurate. Job done.

[bd139]

Yo guys,

do whatevever you want with your DE-5000 LCR45 thinges.

I'll take a shower now and then open this box which contains a Yokogawa DL1200A.
Not very convinced about the packing, though ...

Good luck. Hope it has survived.

[Kosmic]

If you have no capacitance meter a genuine DE-5000 is a good choice. If you already have a good LCR meter the ESR 70 is a good option.

If you have a good LCR meter why would you need a ESR70 ? smaller ? easier to manipulate and take less place on the bench ?

To measure ESR 
I said LCR meter not LCR ESR meter  your other points are a good reasons too.

ESR is the same as the series resistance (Rs). Normally a good LCR meter can measure series resistance adequately.

From IET LCR primer (https://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/application_notes/030122%20IET%20LCR%20PRIMER%201st%20Edition.pdf)

[mnementh]

mnem

£22 sold! Don’t care if it breaks. Doesn’t need to be accurate. Job done.

Yup. CAD$35 delivered (US$28-ish) with the tweezer probes. Comes within 10-15% of the DE-5000 on everything I've tested it on. Plus it knows what flavor of transistor you shove up it, actually has a usable SMD testbed and it quickly and easily lights up random LEDs so you can tell what color they are. 

mnem
 

[bd139]

Just needs a Bluetooth speaker in it 

[mansaxel]

So, eh, it'll tell me if a cap is like, really, really toast or in more or less decent shape, right? Because that's really all I'm after....

*silently closes door behind him*

Both the Peak units and the DE-5000 will, AFAICT. Sometimes, one of course can get such answers from your DMM if it has that measurement (I diagnosed my clothes dryer -- bad motor capacitor -- with my ScopeMeter), but rarely ESR.  The interplay between ESR and capacitance is where, IMNSHO, the DE-5000 shines.  Granted, I've not played with the Peak range; I chose to trust BD139 here. The DE-5000 has been a very significant boost to my bench, which of course says a lot about me and my capabilities, and I must therefore conclude that both are useful, without choosing between them. (notwithstanding that I have chosen, anyway  )

[bd139]

Hahaha.

Thing with capacitors and “goodness” is that you can’t always tell from measurements. It’s a combination of inspection and measurement. For example I’ve had electrolytic capacitors which are currently boiling their electrolyte out all over the PCB test fine on both value and ESR.

Ergo it’s sometimes better to do an evaluation of the device and say “what’s the design life of these parts” and replace anything that is exceeded and additionally anything which is known to ruin your day. Which is a problem where you’ve got a 30 year old scope because that’s technically all of it even the plastics.