Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[bd139]

Oh that was comedy gold 

[factory]

Uggghhh...

Okies... anybody got any tech ref on the monitors used in these HP scopes? I understand the difference between the two implementations is the 54621D and family use 32-grayscale palette, while the 54600A and family use a 2-grayscale palette.

54645A/54600A use HP 2090-0316/DataRay CDM-7SF191, the 54621D uses HP 2090-0384/DataRay CDM-7SX191. My searches in the available HP SMs and on the internet turned up bupkis.

Before I go guessing based on poking around with my scope, does anybody here have actual pinouts and or schematic for these monitors?

Tomorrow I figured I'd start looking at the  CLIP package from the 54645A and see what I can find there. Maybe lookit the video chip on each and see if I can find some datasheets. 

mnem
 

I'm would be surprized if they aren't interchangeable, they look to be standard bought-in monochrome monitors to me, the different greyscaling would be something done in the video processing, on the mainboard and the output just a video signal.
Certainly I saw the video signal on the diagrams for the 54645A, that was posted a few weeks back. I think the other connections are power (+15V?), an external pot for brightness, can't remember what else there is. The chip on the Hitachi CDM-7SF191 board in my 54615B is a uPC1379C, this is a sync signal processor IC intended for small B/W & color TVs and does the vertical & horizontal stuff, that is done by more discrete parts on the earlier scope displays (the only one that a diagram seems available for).David

Yeeah, I'm not sure. IIRC, these are actually a TTL digital input monitor, so not that simple. I need to do some research. 

mnem
 

Neck board has an added 74S03, so maybe 16 new shades of gray.

CNC industry have had small screens for quite some time.
Possibly already have an almost ready replacement LCD.

The 7403 is on the CDM-7SF191 in the 54645A/54600A/54615B, the newer CDM-7SX191 looks to use one or two transistors instead. The larger monitor boards both look to use a similar signal processor IC, layout has changed a bit, need to find better pictures.

The boards in my CDM-7SF191 from 54615B, taken before the re-capicide.   

Pictures of CDM-7SX191 from ePay listing.         

David

Oooh... good idea, looking on fleaBay for pics rather than beating my head against nonexistent documentation.  I've done this before; no idea why I didn't just start there. 

So possibly the difference is just support for the uPC1379C. VCC/GND are the same pins; I need to trace out the circuits for the BRIGHTNESS pot and see where they are in the pinout.

mnem
 

I missed a word out, they both look to use a similar IC on the larger CRT board, just we need better pictures of the newer 7SX version to confirm if it is the same IC. I can't find any teardowns showing this, hopefully someone on here can provide some pictures. 

David

From the Agilent 54654N diagrams, that were linked to recently.
The monitor cable has three connections for +15V and ground, six total.
Three connections for the intensity pot.
Last four connections are half bright, full bright, HS (Hsync?) and VS (Vsync?).
Interesting the HS goes through a 74393 to provide the probe compensation signal.
HS & VS come from the big Jackal custom IC and the half bright, full bright from a PAL IC.

Other relevant pages have been cropped, rotated & added below.

This forum post suggest the Hsync is 19.72kHz and the Vsync is 60Hz.
https://www-elektronik-si.translate.goog/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30373&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=c8ec2c01726d6cc1ee123fe5ebbe8c3d&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Guess I need to locate those on my 54615B, to try & narrow down where my intermittent horizontal roll problem is, but it's not the same board.

David

[tggzzz]

Normally when I'm driving and see a BMW, I scowl.

Why? All the people who used to give BMWs a bad name have moved on to driving Audis and Range Rovers.

Not down here. Audis and SUVs have bread their own range of self-entitled twats.

Those driving Range Rovers and other SUVs in town are destined to go to a special place in hell. Given how they park on narrow roads and block fire engines or ambulances, nobody would worry in the slightest if their vehicles get long deep scrapes down one side.

[tggzzz]

You do realize that their purr is how they eat your soul, right...? 

I recently noticed[1] my daughter's dog purring when very relaxed. She says that's not unusual for him.

[1] felt as much as heard

[tggzzz]

This is also why I ended up moving from test automation to commercial software. It was hell getting everything to work 

So you moved from something unpleasant to something positively painful?

I was doing it only with the documentation provided for the software and hardware too as I was in a building with airgapped network and no windows 

And the documentation for the commercial software is better?

[tggzzz]

I will not drive to Berlin Steglitz, no I will not   
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/hewlett-packard-kepco-uher-etc-/2146996418-168-3415

Some of those 1970s "PCs" fetch surprisingly high prices.

[bd139]

This is also why I ended up moving from test automation to commercial software. It was hell getting everything to work 

So you moved from something unpleasant to something positively painful?

I was doing it only with the documentation provided for the software and hardware too as I was in a building with airgapped network and no windows 

And the documentation for the commercial software is better?

Well my options were:

1. Trying to drive wonky GP-IB cables and devices from Visual Basic through a hooky ISA card that only worked with 16-bit windows so I had to write drivers for NT for it in a room with no natural light other than 30 minutes at lunch time as it was dark in the morning and dark in the evening. The only break being writing CoCreate workmanager's mutant version of BASIC that sort of half ran on Solaris and half on Windows. Or munging bits of Perl on a manky Ultra 2 desperately trying to replace an S390 batch job before they had to pay IBM another vat of kidneys.

2. Get paid 3x that for a trendy job at a web app startup which involved doing 2 hours of work a day in a swanky well lit windowed office in the city and spend the rest of the time pissing around, getting drunk after work and getting into the more interesting kinds of trouble 

I chose well

[mansaxel]

What kind of soldering (station?) are you using for thick cables?
Our everyday 80 W soldering station wont cut it, right?

There are ingots of solder you drop in the lug when it's held in a vise. Then you heat it with a torch and dip the cable in when it's hot enough.

Me, I soldered two Anderson Powerpoles yesterday, to 0,75mm² cable. TS100 with chisel tip. That little one packs a punch. It will do 2,5mm² too but that's a bit of a strain.  It's also important, in the TS100 case, to run it off a laptop PSU at perhaps 19V. 12V won't do.

OTOH, I have a 300W monster that I've soldered copper water pipe with. It can be done.

[Robert763]

Uggghhh...

Okies... anybody got any tech ref on the monitors used in these HP scopes? I understand the difference between the two implementations is the 54621D and family use 32-grayscale palette, while the 54600A and family use a 2-grayscale palette.

54645A/54600A use HP 2090-0316/DataRay CDM-7SF191, the 54621D uses HP 2090-0384/DataRay CDM-7SX191. My searches in the available HP SMs and on the internet turned up bupkis.

Before I go guessing based on poking around with my scope, does anybody here have actual pinouts and or schematic for these monitors?

Tomorrow I figured I'd start looking at the  CLIP package from the 54645A and see what I can find there. Maybe lookit the video chip on each and see if I can find some datasheets. 

mnem
 

I'm would be surprized if they aren't interchangeable, they look to be standard bought-in monochrome monitors to me, the different greyscaling would be something done in the video processing, on the mainboard and the output just a video signal.
Certainly I saw the video signal on the diagrams for the 54645A, that was posted a few weeks back. I think the other connections are power (+15V?), an external pot for brightness, can't remember what else there is. The chip on the Hitachi CDM-7SF191 board in my 54615B is a uPC1379C, this is a sync signal processor IC intended for small B/W & color TVs and does the vertical & horizontal stuff, that is done by more discrete parts on the earlier scope displays (the only one that a diagram seems available for).David

Yeeah, I'm not sure. IIRC, these are actually a TTL digital input monitor, so not that simple. I need to do some research. 

mnem
 

Neck board has an added 74S03, so maybe 16 new shades of gray.

CNC industry have had small screens for quite some time.
Possibly already have an almost ready replacement LCD.

The 7403 is on the CDM-7SF191 in the 54645A/54600A/54615B, the newer CDM-7SX191 looks to use one or two transistors instead. The larger monitor boards both look to use a similar signal processor IC, layout has changed a bit, need to find better pictures.

The boards in my CDM-7SF191 from 54615B, taken before the re-capicide.   

Pictures of CDM-7SX191 from ePay listing.         

David

Oooh... good idea, looking on fleaBay for pics rather than beating my head against nonexistent documentation.  I've done this before; no idea why I didn't just start there. 

So possibly the difference is just support for the uPC1379C. VCC/GND are the same pins; I need to trace out the circuits for the BRIGHTNESS pot and see where they are in the pinout.

mnem
 

I missed a word out, they both look to use a similar IC on the larger CRT board, just we need better pictures of the newer 7SX version to confirm if it is the same IC. I can't find any teardowns showing this, hopefully someone on here can provide some pictures. 

David

From the Agilent 54654N diagrams, that were linked to recently.
The monitor cable has three connections for +15V and ground, six total.
Three connections for the intensity pot.
Last four connections are half bright, full bright, HS (Hsync?) and VS (Vsync?).
Interesting the HS goes through a 74393 to provide the probe compensation signal.
HS & VS come from the big Jackal custom IC and the half bright, full bright from a PAL IC.

Other relevant pages have been cropped, rotated & added below.

This forum post suggest the Hsync is 19.72kHz and the Vsync is 60Hz.
https://www-elektronik-si.translate.goog/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30373&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=c8ec2c01726d6cc1ee123fe5ebbe8c3d&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Guess I need to locate those on my 54615B, to try & narrow down where my intermittent horizontal roll problem is, but it's not the same board.

David

Those signals are the same as used on the HP 892X series of radio test sets. I do have a couple of spres of those but:
A/ heavy to post
B/ probably too long.

However replacement LCD kits are available for those AND a GONBES 8200 or 8220 video converter will drive a VGA screen from a 892x
 www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111462755254

EDIT: Roberto Barrios hdetails the 8920 mod here
https://rbarrios.com/projects/8920lcd/
Note the composite video is generted byy a simple circuit in the 892x I'll dig it out.

[mansaxel]

Most of the horror stories I read about are exactly the opposite: some monkey-butt thinking they're going to "stick it to da man" because they read somewhere that the electric company has to allow you to backfeed and that they have to pay you for the electricity you generate. In those cases, you as a "power plant" have to ensure QOS and they will have very specific demands as to the hardware they allow you to connect to their grid.

In a "consumer-only" scenario, I believe there is going to have be some form of power conditioning or isolation that has to be installed between "your grid" and "their grid"; even if it is as simple as you using a big-arse transformer to charge your battery bank when needed. I do not believe they will allow you to connect their grid directly to the solar-powered/generated AC you use for your own household AC power under any circumstances.

mnem
 

Here, it is allowed, and direct, and the power company can only refuse under some specific technical circumstances. I have talked to people who pocket several 1000s of SEK (/10 to get more familiar money) per month when the sun shines. Thing is that most inverters are being built to be grid-tied, so already do the important stuff like track the grid for all relevant parameters.

You have to have a system that shuts down when the grid disappears, unless you've done a lot of legwork to insure safe island operation. Their concern is linesmen safety so the requirement is an OR system; that will connect either grid-tied in presence of grid, OR run from a controllable power source like a genset.  In that case, one connects the inverter to the separable island, and it will shut down when the mains goes, and come back when the tie is severed and the independent power is back.  I'd really want the disconnect too since there's no chance in hell I'd try driving the entire block; we're perhaps 50 houses on the closest transformer, all having 4x10mm² feeders and from 16 to 25A fuses per phase.

I believe companies like Victron do this, turn-key.

[Robert763]

Circuit used in HP 8920A to generate composite video from VS HS high and mid brightness signals.

[mansaxel]

Because of this "Not As Described" status, no... seller will be liable for every penny I paid plus the cost of the return label. If he wants the stoopit thing back. There is a small chance he might just refund to prevent negative feedback, but I've learned better than to hope for that.

I had that happen; bought an audio matrix switcher but received a video one. They packed the wrong item. I raised dispute, and got a no-questions-asked refund, with no return request.  It will be my 10MHz distribution unit as soon as I've solved my issues with the GPSDO.

Then I found another audio matrix that was in even better shape, with 4 extra stereo inputs (12x8 instead of 8x8) and there was happiness.

Now I'm in the market for a 1080i / p HDMI one, so I can control video signals as well.

[mnementh]

moo...?

mnem
 

[mnementh]

Why the fuck didn't I look closer and notice this immediately?   

Added to the dispute. 

mnem
 

Ah, well.... that's gonna be more difficult to fix than a circuit board for sure... but not all hope is lost ! I mean you just bragged about how good your other half was at sucking, maybe she can bring the vacuum back into this CRT ?! 

No, I did NOT just say this, wasn't me officer !!!!   

   BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

mnem
I should tell her you said that... and give her your address.

[mansaxel]

If anyone needs any bits out of this Google for the service manual, look through and and PM me and I’ll send them to you for postage cost.

Those 3-hole banana jacks are nice. (usage is twisted pair plus screen/ground/guard) I've got some equipment that uses them, so I'd appreciate some effort to get them here. Am off for vacations now for 3 weeks, so in no hurry what so ever.

/This post sent to you from a Gasthaus just east of Soltau, on the Lüneburger Heide, in the federal republic of Germany. Where the BAOR and their crop-destructors aren't missed.

[mnementh]

Uggghhh...

Okies... anybody got any tech ref on the monitors used in these HP scopes? I understand the difference between the two implementations is the 54621D and family use 32-grayscale palette, while the 54600A and family use a 2-grayscale palette.

54645A/54600A use HP 2090-0316/DataRay CDM-7SF191, the 54621D uses HP 2090-0384/DataRay CDM-7SX191. My searches in the available HP SMs and on the internet turned up bupkis.

Before I go guessing based on poking around with my scope, does anybody here have actual pinouts and or schematic for these monitors?

Tomorrow I figured I'd start looking at the  CLIP package from the 54645A and see what I can find there. Maybe lookit the video chip on each and see if I can find some datasheets. 

mnem
 

I'm would be surprized if they aren't interchangeable, they look to be standard bought-in monochrome monitors to me, the different greyscaling would be something done in the video processing, on the mainboard and the output just a video signal.
Certainly I saw the video signal on the diagrams for the 54645A, that was posted a few weeks back. I think the other connections are power (+15V?), an external pot for brightness, can't remember what else there is. The chip on the Hitachi CDM-7SF191 board in my 54615B is a uPC1379C, this is a sync signal processor IC intended for small B/W & color TVs and does the vertical & horizontal stuff, that is done by more discrete parts on the earlier scope displays (the only one that a diagram seems available for).David

Yeeah, I'm not sure. IIRC, these are actually a TTL digital input monitor, so not that simple. I need to do some research. 

mnem
 

Neck board has an added 74S03, so maybe 16 new shades of gray.

CNC industry have had small screens for quite some time.
Possibly already have an almost ready replacement LCD.

The 7403 is on the CDM-7SF191 in the 54645A/54600A/54615B, the newer CDM-7SX191 looks to use one or two transistors instead. The larger monitor boards both look to use a similar signal processor IC, layout has changed a bit, need to find better pictures.

The boards in my CDM-7SF191 from 54615B, taken before the re-capicide.   

Pictures of CDM-7SX191 from ePay listing.         

David

Oooh... good idea, looking on fleaBay for pics rather than beating my head against nonexistent documentation.  I've done this before; no idea why I didn't just start there. 

So possibly the difference is just support for the uPC1379C. VCC/GND are the same pins; I need to trace out the circuits for the BRIGHTNESS pot and see where they are in the pinout.

mnem
 

I missed a word out, they both look to use a similar IC on the larger CRT board, just we need better pictures of the newer 7SX version to confirm if it is the same IC. I can't find any teardowns showing this, hopefully someone on here can provide some pictures. 

David

From the Agilent 54654N diagrams, that were linked to recently.
The monitor cable has three connections for +15V and ground, six total.
Three connections for the intensity pot.
Last four connections are half bright, full bright, HS (Hsync?) and VS (Vsync?).
Interesting the HS goes through a 74393 to provide the probe compensation signal.
HS & VS come from the big Jackal custom IC and the half bright, full bright from a PAL IC.

Other relevant pages have been cropped, rotated & added below.

This forum post suggest the Hsync is 19.72kHz and the Vsync is 60Hz.
https://www-elektronik-si.translate.goog/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30373&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=c8ec2c01726d6cc1ee123fe5ebbe8c3d&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Guess I need to locate those on my 54615B, to try & narrow down where my intermittent horizontal roll problem is, but it's not the same board.

David

Awww, man, you ruined all my nerdly fun! That was just what I was searching out, but kept getting distracted by the Discord... now it's all right in front of me! 

mnem
*scribble-scribble*

[mansaxel]

Well, it's a real shame you didn't make that clear from the start 

He did.

[Specmaster]

I will not drive to Berlin Steglitz, no I will not   
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/hewlett-packard-kepco-uher-etc-/2146996418-168-3415

Some of those 1970s "PCs" fetch surprisingly high prices.

One of those PC's appears to be NOS, still sealed in its plastic packing.

[Specmaster]

Well, it's a real shame you didn't make that clear from the start 

He did.

Not in his very first post on page 4994 post #124828 he didn't, but it appears that he did in post #124837, some 9 posts after the first mention that a dispute had been opened. Somehow I missed this post as I was scrolling down trying to catch up with all the days' activity, and so I still stand by my claim, he didn't mention it in his first post about the problem.

[AnalogueLove1867]

TEA...
Transversely Excited Atmospheric
LASER!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEA_laser




Sorry, couldn't help myself 

[bitseeker]

TEA...
Transversely Excited Atmospheric
LASER!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEA_laser

Sorry, couldn't help myself 

Wow, didn't know about that form of TEA.

[vk6zgo]

I will not drive to Berlin Steglitz, no I will not   



https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/hewlett-packard-kepco-uher-etc-/2146996418-168-3415

I would, but the Camry doesn't do so good on water!

[mnementh]

TEA...
Transversely Excited Atmospheric
LASER!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEA_laser




Sorry, couldn't help myself 

I just love some folks' idea of "easy". 

mnem
*punt*

[vk6zgo]

Why the fuck didn't I look closer and notice this immediately?   

Added to the dispute. 

mnem
 

Ah, well.... that's gonna be more difficult to fix than a circuit board for sure... but not all hope is lost ! I mean you just bragged about how good your other half was at sucking, maybe she can bring the vacuum back into this CRT ?! 

No, I did NOT just say this, wasn't me officer !!!!   

   BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

mnem
I should tell her you said that... and give her your address.

Vince would have to wait till after she finished belting your scaly arse!

[mnementh]

WELCOME TO 5000!           

From the Agilent 54654N diagrams, that were linked to recently.
The monitor cable has three connections for +15V and ground, six total.
Three connections for the intensity pot.
Last four connections are half bright, full bright, HS (Hsync?) and VS (Vsync?).
Interesting the HS goes through a 74393 to provide the probe compensation signal.
HS & VS come from the big Jackal custom IC and the half bright, full bright from a PAL IC.

Other relevant pages have been cropped, rotated & added below.

This forum post suggest the Hsync is 19.72kHz and the Vsync is 60Hz.
https://www-elektronik-si.translate.goog/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30373&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=c8ec2c01726d6cc1ee123fe5ebbe8c3d&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Guess I need to locate those on my 54615B, to try & narrow down where my intermittent horizontal roll problem is, but it's not the same board.

David

Okay, I've traced out the 54621D and the VCC, GND are in the same locations, plus Pin 10 dssig_grd is also tied directly to GND. However the BRIGHTNESS pot is not brought out to this header on the 54621D.

   
                        VSync                                                    HSync 
   
My guess is that 13/14 are still the sync signals, and they have repurposed 7, 8, 9, 11, 12 for their greyscale scheme. 54645A agrees; trace 1 is the 54621D, trace 2 is the 54600A.


   

However, pin 8 is a different story; all I'm getting from the 54600A is noise.   

Then the light dawns; the pot isn't connected to the monitor PCB, duh. Then it occurs to me the voltages usually present on a brightness pot, so I connect the cable back in the 54600A and probe the pot. Yup... (-58V) sent out pin 9 to the pot. Without knowing how the 54621D does its greyscale, I'm not too sanguine about connecting that (-58V) back to its mainboard.

I think this is probably a good point to call it a night.

mnem