Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?

[joeqsmith]

One other thing:

Joe discovered areas where the 87V shows a wrong reading on screen. They should probably address that, too, in a meter that I'm constantly being told is all "safety first!"

Here's one showing about 50 volts less that it ought to be showing:
...

As usual, the 87IV shows these values correctly.

Joe's post is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg3630224/#msg3630224

He did a more in depth look at this issue but I don't remember which video it was in...

I read the whole thread.   In the case the the Brymen BM78x series, these problems were addressed with the firmware.   I also mentioned during my review of the BM789 that I suspected the same problem had returned after updating the firmware to the latest (swap IC).  However, it turned out to be a problem with the alignment caused from changing the IC.  Again, something that was known from the start.    In the case of the 87V, I doubt it's of any concern for the typical technician. 

For the OPs audio work, the free meters we get from HF will run on a single 9V for about 1000 hours.   In many ways, this meter is better than my first DMM which was a benchtop Fluke 8000A. 





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[bdunham7]

"New functionality" happens, and it's a feature!
(Is that a Fluke Phone?)

Don't worry, the meter has not been touched AFAIK.  Fluke has a whole new FC line of remote-connected measurement modules and this is new PC software for them.  I don't see the phone-like display module listed anywhere, but I don't think FC is bluetooth.  Seems like innovation to me!

[tooki]

Anyhow, people ridicule Apple for having “high” prices and “style over substance”. What they ignore is that while Apple mostly chooses to not participate in the low end market at all, their prices in the midrange and high end markets are generally competitive. They absolutely have style, but they do have the substance to back it up.

That is if they actually offer the feature(s) that one wants.  Unfortunately, they have chosen to forgo offering the things I insist on all to comply with their style directives and 'vision'.

As a lifelong Mac user, I actually share your sentiment. My desktop is a 2008 Mac Pro, and one reason I haven’t replaced it (despite the desperate need for an upgrade) is because nothing they sell now actually really checks all the boxes. (Why are they so against internal drive bays?!?)

[Fungus]

Don't worry, the meter has not been touched AFAIK.

That's true, it might just be a new external comms modiule.

[bdunham7]

That's true, it might just be a new external comms modiule.

The phone thing or the module sitting on top of the meter?  The module on the meter is not new, it goes in place of the IR cable that usually attaches there.  The whole thing gets a bit unwieldy and I really wouldn't be eager to have my $1K meter and module sitting down in the bowels of some machine.  I like the new modular remote measuring widgets a whole lot better for that sort of 'remote measurement in a dangerous place' work.

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-v3000-fc

Or this all-in-one monster:

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/condition-monitoring/power/3540-power-monitor-sensor

[Fungus]

Why?  The 28 II is still available.

So why does the 87Max exist? It's just a 28II in disguise, why confuse the 87V buyers? 

[kcbrown]

The 87IV was a complete redesign, not an incremental step. People panicked even though it was a much better meter.

The other steps (from 87 -> 87II, from 87II -> 87III) were gradual and well received.

And that doesn't clue you in on why Fluke doesn't do major changes to their existing models, and instead releases completely new models?

[kcbrown]

Why?  The 28 II is still available.

So why does the 87Max exist? It's just a 28II in disguise, why confuse the 87V buyers? 

That's a good question.  The 87 Max appears to be a 28II with a high resolution mode.  I haven't done any kind of deep comparison between them.  This smells like a marketing trick to me, and may actually be related to the nature of the problems of certification and acceptability to institutional customers (like government).

[rsjsouza]

The 87IV was a complete redesign, not an incremental step. People panicked even though it was a much better meter.

The other steps (from 87 -> 87II, from 87II -> 87III) were gradual and well received.

And that doesn't clue you in on why Fluke doesn't do major changes to their existing models, and instead releases completely new models?

Despite the 87IV and its subsequent numbers 187/189 work well, I still suspect there was something else (parts availability, manufacturability, some inherent design flaw) behind these models for them to have been retired relatively quickly.

I have several models (including a 87V and a 189) and I can tell the 87V feels immensely more solid (my old 179 sold years ago was the same)

[kcbrown]

Despite the 87IV and its subsequent numbers 187/189 work well, I still suspect there was something else (parts availability, manufacturability, some inherent design flaw) behind these models for them to have been retired relatively quickly.

That's entirely possible.  Even so, note how Fluke came out with new models that had separate designations, rather than simply changing the design/BOM of the existing model. 

I have several models (including a 87V and a 189) and I can tell the 87V feels immensely more solid (my old 179 sold years ago was the same)

I have an 87 III and it's also quite solid.

[Fungus]

And that doesn't clue you in on why Fluke doesn't do major changes to their existing models, and instead releases completely new models?

I'm not asking for major changes to anything, I'd be quite happy with a completely new model. Right now they're not doing either.

Where's Fluke's technological tour-de-force?

[Fungus]

So why does the 87Max exist? It's just a 28II in disguise, why confuse the 87V buyers? 

That's a good question.  ...  This smells like a marketing trick to me

Me too. To me it smells like they're using "87V" branding to sell a meter that makes $100 more profit then the standard "87V" model.

The two meters aren't equivalent so it flies in the face of everything that's been said here about the 87V being an untouchable industry standard.

[james_s]

Despite the 87IV and its subsequent numbers 187/189 work well, I still suspect there was something else (parts availability, manufacturability, some inherent design flaw) behind these models for them to have been retired relatively quickly.

I have several models (including a 87V and a 189) and I can tell the 87V feels immensely more solid (my old 179 sold years ago was the same)

We had a 187 (I think) at a former job. It was not a bad meter but I was not really a huge fan either. The main thing I remember is it used AA batteries rather than the less leak-prone 9V used by the 87, and surprise surprise, some batteries leaked in it at some point and corroded the battery terminals. I like the 9V batteries, they almost never leak, and the battery snap that fits them is a commodity part that is easily replaced if it gets damaged.

[Fungus]

In the case of the 87V, I doubt it's of any concern for the typical technician.

But still, it's an issue that could be addressed in the flagship meter of supposedly the best brand in the world.

You video shows that the 87V can measure the signal correctly, it's a problem with firmware/autoranging.

In the case the the Brymen BM78x series, these problems were addressed with the firmware.

Within days...

[Fungus]

We had a 187 (I think) at a former job. It was not a bad meter but I was not really a huge fan either. The main thing I remember is it used AA batteries rather than the less leak-prone 9V used by the 87, and surprise surprise, some batteries leaked in it at some point and corroded the battery terminals.

In terms of measurement the 87IV/187/189 are far better than the 87V but they have their issues.

eg. The 187/189 have a built in clock for time-stamping events. This means it never truly turns off, it has a standby current of about 70uA.

Anything with a small power drain like that is a recipe for battery leaks.

The 189 also had problems with the internal supercap that can leak and/or drain the battery. If you want an old 50,000 count Fluke then the 187 is the one to get IMHO.

[joeqsmith]

In the case of the 87V, I doubt it's of any concern for the typical technician.

But still, it's an issue that could be addressed in the flagship meter of supposedly the best brand in the world.

You video shows that the 87V can measure the signal correctly, it's a problem with firmware/autoranging.

In the case the the Brymen BM78x series, these problems were addressed with the firmware.

Within days...

I really don't know much about Fluke or the 87V.    It may use a masked part with some minimum buy.  They could be sitting on a last time buy.   They may also be out of code space.  It may not even be something that could be addressed in firmware.  For that matter, they may not even have the source or the talent to roll a changes if they wanted.  If they could change it, they may not have the resources to qualify it.   We are talking about a very old product.  Contrast that with a brand new product where the engineers are fully engaged in its development.  I would fully expect the latter to be able to respond much faster.         

Consider also that when I started to look at the Brymen 78x series, it was not available for purchase.   At this stage I suspect Brymen considered their risk much lower than say changing one of their more mature products.   I would not be surprised if my review didn't delay the their release date as unlike Dave, I arrived very late to the party.   

While I grabbed the 87V to make the point that this kind of problem is not unique to the Brymen 78x series, it's certainly not unique to the Fluke 87V.   I've shown similar problems with other brands as well.  I suspect you don't hear to much about it as the electricians are not working with such signals.  I had someone ask me once why I would ever need to look at something faster than 60Hz.   That's their world and the 87V is a good fit for some of them.    For those of us working outside that world, we have products like the 78x. 

[bdunham7]

But still, it's an issue that could be addressed in the flagship meter of supposedly the best brand in the world.

You video shows that the 87V can measure the signal correctly, it's a problem with firmware/autoranging.

Perhaps, but making a change to accommodate an atypical misuse of the meter might result in an issue elsewhere.  You want fast autoranging, but it can cause issues--and has IIRC from past posts.  I'm sure if I had both meters here I could dream up a test that would reveal an issue with fast autoranging. And with firmware updates, rapid response to one problem may result in failing to spot another.  Now the actual flagship, the 289, actually has a nice feature for sorting this type of issue out--Auto Lo-Z that displays both the AC and DC parts of the input on a fixed 1kV scale.

[joeqsmith]

The real question is how is that UNI-T 61E+ going to handle it??  I hear its every bit as good as the 87V, just cheaper.

[Markus2801A]

Now the actual flagship, the 289, actually has a nice feature for sorting this type of issue out--Auto Lo-Z that displays both the AC and DC parts of the input on a fixed 1kV scale.

Regarding "Flagship Model": now which models other brands are most likely, direct competitors, alternatives or even better than the 289?

The Fluke 289 sells in Austria for approx.: 700€

[HKJ]

Regarding "Flagship Model": now which models other brands are most likely, direct competitors, alternatives or even better than the 289?

The Fluke 289 sells in Austria for approx.: 700€

My look at high end meters includes most competitors: https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMHigh-end%20UK.html
The most direct competitor is the UNI-T UT181A
Another interesting meter is Chauvin Arnoux CA 5293, it is not a direct competitor, but is generally more advanced than the 289.

[sotos]

Why I sold my 289 and bought the  UNI-T UT181A.

Because fluke measurement datalogging stores the measurements as electrical 1 electrical 2, not sure If I remember .

 UNI-T UT181A can save your measurement datalogging what ever name you want. Fluke does not allow it.

Second the batteries discharge and if you forget to change them they leak and destroy the battery compartment.
It happened to me.

[Synthtech]

The Hioki DT4282 is worth a look if you want something with Japanese build quality that feels like a stable bench DMM in a portable package.

For me though I have to have a bench meter as well because the two things that a absolutely dislike and also regard as somewhat dangerous are what I regard as design defects in handheld DMMs - The meter rather than the operator decides when to turn off the display backlight and when to turn off the display itself.

I don’t care if it reduces battery life. If I want the display backlight to turn off I want to do that myself, not have it happen unexpectedly during a critical part of the task.

[Fungus]

I don’t care if it reduces battery life. If I want the display backlight to turn off I want to do that myself, not have it happen unexpectedly during a critical part of the task.

I believe the Fluke 87V actually does that - one thing they got right, yay!

My Brymen doesn't, the backlight time is ridiculously short - 30 seconds IIRC. 

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Edit: On my 87IV the backlight time is user-definable, including "infinite" if I want it.

[bdunham7]

Regarding "Flagship Model": now which models other brands are most likely, direct competitors, alternatives or even better than the 289?

The Fluke 289 sells in Austria for approx.: 700€

That's some pretty stiff pricing, but I suppose with VAT it's just the way it is.  IMO, probably Chauvin Arnoux/Metrix is what I would consider if I were an EU resident.  Unfortunately for us, their products are not widely available in the US. So that opinion is based on specs and what other people have said about them, not direct experience.

[joeqsmith]

Why I sold my 289 and bought the  UNI-T UT181A.

Because fluke measurement datalogging stores the measurements as electrical 1 electrical 2, not sure If I remember .

 UNI-T UT181A can save your measurement datalogging what ever name you want. Fluke does not allow it.

Second the batteries discharge and if you forget to change them they leak and destroy the battery compartment.
It happened to me.

There comes that time you need to use the UT181A and the battery is flat (dead).  12-24 hours latter, you're ready to make your measurement.   Once it's past it's life, your not going to the local gas station to buy a new battery pack.   

For data logging, I want a PC interface and LabView.  The 181A offers a BLE interface and with some help from a few members, I was eventually able to get it working.

I like how they stole the 289s UI as it makes it very easy to use.  While the meter has several problems, if they make an improved version I would be very interested in having a look.