Altium Designer new pricing model and high end / low end tool in development

[MatCat]

In the case of Altium it all worked out well as long as Windows stayed the primary OS, and it will continue to work until that magic moment when suddenly the majority of dev tools are on something else and so are the users.

With 91% of desktops and laptops still running Windows when do you think that magic moment will be?

Try searching for PCB or general CAD packages for linux or OSX and see that Altium is far from alone.

Yeah that statistic holds true for it's metric, but how many laptops and desktops sold this year compared to the last, and the last?  Also mix in how many other devices which we don't necessarily consider computers in the desktop/laptop sense are now in use that have replaced previous laptop/desktop uses (Tablets, smart phones, etc), the stark reality is the concept of the desktop is leaving fast!  Don't get me wrong, there will always be certain people that need a desktop concept, I.E. yes like someone posted above, the concept of a workstation will come back full swing as the common computing device turns into something other then the desktop computer as we know it now, the software and tools will follow, it does take a bit of time though, but the majority of major perquisites to change from an MS dominated computer landscape to linux is already been put in place, Android was just the landslide trigger, it made all programmers shift to a linux central development platform, companies like Valve are pumping millions to get the graphics working right simply because that is one of the the major driving forces for consumer computing technology, you also have companies like NVIDIA dedicating resource to development on the linux kernel, AMD is now starting to produce ARM chips for server and workstation systems.

Why I give it 5 years or so, that is what it is going to take for the bigger players to get their code base ported over.

[EEVblog]

Yeah that statistic holds true for it's metric, but how many laptops and desktops sold this year compared to the last, and the last?  Also mix in how many other devices which we don't necessarily consider computers in the desktop/laptop sense are now in use that have replaced previous laptop/desktop uses (Tablets, smart phones, etc), the stark reality is the concept of the desktop is leaving fast!

Not for serious CAD work or video creation for example it's not.
Let's assume that 90% or so PC/Windows figure is correct (I have no reason to doubt it), then Altium still have no real business reason to start porting the code yet.
Let's say it's drops to 80% this year, and 70% the next. Ok, only then would they start to think it would be worthwhile to port it.
But what is it switching to?
Mac? Clearly not.
The only thing left is Linux. Do you really think Linux is going to take over the mainstream power desktop field? Not likely.
There is reason why Windows has lasted so long, and is still the platform of choice for engineering programs.

What I'm getting at is that a Linux version of Altium would not really gain them any significant extra customers who otherwise won't use it because it's Windows only. So the business case has just never been there, and that still remains the case.

[graynomad]

the concept of a workstation will come back full swing as the common computing device turns into something other then the desktop computer as we know it now,

I haven't used a desktop for maybe 15 years, funnily enough though I may be about to go back to one, 90% because I want 3 screens for my PCB (and other) CAD work and AFAIK there's no good way to do that with a laptop.

I suppose I could just make the new machine a "workstation" and install whatever OS makes sense for that, but I haven't got the endurance to learn another OS and/or software packages. Not that I've really "learned" much about Windows over the 25-30 years or so I've been using it, the OS is just some crap that runs in the background as far as I'm concerned, it's the applications that I use and sure as eggs my favourite calculator (or whatever) won't be ported to a non-windows platform.

Apart from the fact I aplaud Linux/Andriod et al for being open, I have no real cause to swap to them and can't see that I ever would.

[jeremy]

I haven't used a desktop for maybe 15 years, funnily enough though I may be about to go back to one, 90% because I want 3 screens for my PCB (and other) CAD work and AFAIK there's no good way to do that with a laptop.

little bit off topic, but I currently do this with my laptop (macbook pro). You just plug them in?

[Rufus]

Yeah that statistic holds true for it's metric, but how many laptops and desktops sold this year compared to the last, and the last?  Also mix in how many other devices which we don't necessarily consider computers in the desktop/laptop sense are now in use that have replaced previous laptop/desktop uses (Tablets, smart phones, etc), the stark reality is the concept of the desktop is leaving fast!

The concept of a desktop isn't leaving any time soon. Lots of people bought desktop computers because they wanted to access the internet, email, and maybe some office type application and games. They bought desktops and later laptops because that is all there was. Now we have tablets which do most of what those lots of people bought desktops for, they are also cheap and portable so obviously there will be far fewer desktops/laptops around.

That doesn't change the concept or need for desktops/laptops and won't much affect the choice of operating system to run on them. So yes 90% of computing 'devices' may soon not be lap/desk tops but I wouldn't be surprised to see 91% of the ones that are still running Windows. The biggest threat to Windows on desktops/laptops is Microsoft continuing to screw it up. 

[graynomad]

I currently do this with my laptop (macbook pro)

Yes but you've had to use a Mac

Are the screen resolutions the same on all three? I currently use 2 but it seems impossible to get matching screens because my laptop has a very fine dot pitch and stand-alone displays do not.

[Corporate666]

As long as there is a need for powerful computers, there will be desktop computers.


I remember 20-25 years ago, companies like Novell were prophesying the end of the desktop computer, and applications would be run on servers with the user just having a monitor.

Funny, because that existed 20 years earlier and dumb terminals went the way of the dodo.  I remember 23 years ago working in a computer company and the first Toshiba laptop with an active matrix screen came in - and it was said that soon, everyone would just use laptops and there would be no more desktops.

Bottom line is that the death of the desktop has been predicted for at least 25-30 years, and it hasn't happened and shows no signs of happening.  Who is going to be doing PCB design on a tablet or smartphone?  There will always be aspects of a powerful machine that are incompatible with a small machine.  Such as screen size, storage, power consumption.  For as long as this universe obeys Newtonian physics, more speed will mean more power which will mean more electricity, more heat sinking, more physical size, more expense, etc.  Some people will pay a premium for that power (gamers, video editors, CAD users, software developers).  And those machines are where real development will happen.

Could Linux take over as the OS?  I guess so... but that's been supposedly coming for decades as well and also hasn't happened.  Windows is dirt cheap, supported by a major company that you can call for tech support, and has the largest user base and largest software list out there.  What is the incentive to change?  Security?  Windows is really good these days.  Cost?  A total non-issue.  Sticking it to evil Bill Gates?  Corporations don't care - they just want to make $$.

 

[jeremy]

I currently do this with my laptop (macbook pro)

Yes but you've had to use a Mac

Are the screen resolutions the same on all three? I currently use 2 but it seems impossible to get matching screens because my laptop has a very fine dot pitch and stand-alone displays do not.

I run osx, Linux and windows, macs are just a piece of hardware VM speed is indistinguishable from native speed on my latest one. The laptop has a much higher DPI but has a smaller effective resolution than the external monitors. All different resolutions, but the OS seems to know how to join them up.

I would agree that the only major reason everything is built for windows is that everything *else* is built for windows. That reason is very slowly disappearing (Xilinx now on Linux, valve steambox, every embedded device under the sun runs Linux, etc) and developers will eventually need to switch to more portable practices or be left behind. It happened with osx and video/photo/3d tools moving to windows, and it will surely happen again and again with something else.

At this stage it probably doesn't make sense for Altium to do a full rewrite and port. But few ever see the market shift coming...

[Bassman59]

But perhaps unfortunately the new CEO actually wrote his own Ajax based development system, Morfik.
And they were stupid enough to use that for their forum etc which sucks arse.

Morfik isn't the reason their forum sucks arse.

It sucks because rather than having subforums for each obvious functional area (PCB/schematic, FPGA, nanoboard, microcontroller firmware), it's all lumped into one big forum. Requests on the forum to divide it up were met with flaming derision.

And there's no way to know what threads have been updated, or basically do anything you could have done in a CompuServe forum in 1988.

[Mechatrommer]

Could Linux take over as the OS?  I guess so... but that's been supposedly coming for decades as well and also hasn't happened.

ditto! Linux for years is simply just a "waste". now dont get me wrong, linux is quite good actually (both from technical and UI POV) and i always hope that one day i can get fulltime on it. what i'm guessing is that all those supporters are fishing the wrong pond all this while. what they need is support from HW vendors and pro SW developers (Pro means money) and to improve business model for it. i dont involve in linux update, but looking at this fact put some credibility to the claim. linux is complete, what is not is its marketing, my 2cnts.

I always was more BCB/C++ then Delphi/Pacal, that said, I went with Qt as the framework, for me it was gold since is core is C++ have GUI and classes that abstract almost everything in the OS and more 

yep C++ is golden, its not necessarily delphi, sorry i didnt mention it earlier, just another quick OT on this... Qt looks good, but.. for "Qt 5.2.0 for Windows 32-bit" install, whats the difference between for MinGW, VS2010, VS2012? this is very confusing i cant find explanation for it. http://qt-project.org/downloads and what do you think about wxWidgets? http://www.wxwidgets.org/ compared to Qt?

[jeremy]

whats the difference between for MinGW, VS2010, VS2012? this is very confusing i cant find explanation for it. http://qt-project.org/downloads

Compiler type for precompiled libs I presume. VS2010 and VS2012 are Visual Studio and MinGW is the GNU toolchain that runs on windows.

[bxs]

I always was more BCB/C++ then Delphi/Pacal, that said, I went with Qt as the framework, for me it was gold since is core is C++ have GUI and classes that abstract almost everything in the OS and more 

yep C++ is golden, its not necessarily delphi, sorry i didnt mention it earlier, just another quick OT on this... Qt looks good, but.. for "Qt 5.2.0 for Windows 32-bit" install, whats the difference between for MinGW, VS2010, VS2012? this is very confusing i cant find explanation for it. http://qt-project.org/downloads and what do you think about wxWidgets? http://www.wxwidgets.org/ compared to Qt?

All this VS2010, VS2012, MinGW is just because of incompatibilities between libs compiled with different tool chains or just between different versions of a toolchain, this way you can choose with what toolchain you will use Qt ;-)

MinGW is just a port of GCC to windows, you can have 2 releases of Qt installed, for example one for VS other for MinGW, also the Qt MinGW installer also installs MinGW ;-)

About wxwidgets compared to Qt, you really can't compare them, they are very different things, wxwidgets only have widgets so it is only useful for GUI, Qt have the widgets and all the rest, it have classes for almost everything you need to do, take a look at:
http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/qtmodules.html
http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/classes.html

That said, if you only need cross-platform widgets wxwidgets are a really nice option.

[Scutarius]

Mac? Clearly not.

why not? OK fair enough, OS X is for non-technical people if you want but it is a UNIX system, so If you make it for Linux GNU I am more than happy with it.

[Mechatrommer]

Compiler type for precompiled libs I presume. VS2010 and VS2012 are Visual Studio and MinGW is the GNU toolchain that runs on windows.

All this VS2010, VS2012, MinGW is just because of incompatibilities between libs compiled with different tool chains or just between different versions of a toolchain, this way you can choose with what toolchain you will use Qt ;-)
MinGW is just a port of GCC to windows, you can have 2 releases of Qt installed, for example one for VS other for MinGW, also the Qt MinGW installer also installs MinGW ;-)
About wxwidgets compared to Qt, you really can't compare them, they are very different things, wxwidgets only have widgets so it is only useful for GUI, Qt have the widgets and all the rest, it have classes for almost everything you need to do, take a look at:
http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/qtmodules.html
http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/classes.html

ah i get it, the toolchain, i'm so used to the install that already has a fixed toolchain in it. thanks to both of you!

That said, if you only need cross-platform widgets wxwidgets are a really nice option.

hell no, more is better the choice is crystal clear now thank you!

[MatCat]

I can see why some would think the desktop will continue on intrepidly like it has been, but if you think the Windows Desktop is going to still be the standard device in 5 years you are crazy. 

The main reason I see the change from Windows to Android/Linux (remember Android is linux) on the workstation/desktop machine is because there is an obvious push to change the architecture to ARM right now, not just at the hardware level but at the software level too.  As the mainstream user base changes the primary computer they use, so will the software vendors to make their products work on it.   Sure currently 90% of all laptops and desktops are running Windows, but at the same time as of 2013 only 65% of all internet access is from a Windows OS, take into account that there was a total loss of internet connected devices using MS by 34% from 2012 to 2013 (2012 saw nearly all internet access from MS), that is a huge market share sliding right off the plate if I ever saw one, and there is no sign it's going to stop.  Windows 8 was a complete flop, and shows how MS just can't keep up with the changes.

Anyone look at the new AMD ARM cihp?  Sure it's made for servers, but it's a sign of a paradigm shift in architecture.  5 years is a long time for computers, a lot can happen by then. 

Of course none of it matters to the OP   Let's just hope Altium does it right.

[EEVblog]

Morfik isn't the reason their forum sucks arse.
It sucks because rather than having subforums for each obvious functional area (PCB/schematic, FPGA, nanoboard, microcontroller firmware), it's all lumped into one big forum. Requests on the forum to divide it up were met with flaming derision.

The point is they chose their own stupid development system to roll their own forum instead of using a proven, debugged, and feature rich industry standard off-the-shelf forum software.
That means it's a lot of work to add anything significant instead of it being trivial.
That also means they have had to deal with a ton of bugs. Were you on there at the start? it was awful.
That also means it also takes valuable programming resources away from the CAD product in order to dick around with their forum.
It was a stupid choice on so many levels, and shows how stupid and stubborn Altium are.

[EEVblog]

I can see why some would think the desktop will continue on intrepidly like it has been, but if you think the Windows Desktop is going to still be the standard device in 5 years you are crazy. 

Not for serious CAD work, which is what we are talking about here.

[Macbeth]

I can see why some would think the desktop will continue on intrepidly like it has been, but if you think the Windows Desktop is going to still be the standard device in 5 years you are crazy. 

The main reason I see the change from Windows to Android/Linux (remember Android is linux) on the workstation/desktop machine is because there is an obvious push to change the architecture to ARM right now, not just at the hardware level but at the software level too.  As the mainstream user base changes the primary computer they use, so will the software vendors to make their products work on it.   Sure currently 90% of all laptops and desktops are running Windows, but at the same time as of 2013 only 65% of all internet access is from a Windows OS, take into account that there was a total loss of internet connected devices using MS by 34% from 2012 to 2013 (2012 saw nearly all internet access from MS), that is a huge market share sliding right off the plate if I ever saw one, and there is no sign it's going to stop.  Windows 8 was a complete flop, and shows how MS just can't keep up with the changes.

Anyone look at the new AMD ARM cihp?  Sure it's made for servers, but it's a sign of a paradigm shift in architecture.  5 years is a long time for computers, a lot can happen by then. 

Of course none of it matters to the OP   Let's just hope Altium does it right.

I agree - also, all the real engineering/scientific tools have always been developed under Unix in academic environments. Spice, Finite Element Analysis, LaTex, SPSS, indeed the whole internet as we knew it, HTTP, IRC, FTP, SMTP, etc.

The motor manufacturers don't use Windoze and Altium. They have custom tools on high end Unix workstations. Proprietary and not for sale. They were doing solid modelling decades before Solidworks came out.
 
REAL engineers, like NASA, etc, use Unix. Pissy engineers use what overblown commercial vendors take from Unix and port to Windows with bells and whistles.

I look forward to what the CERN guys can do with KiCad on their free time.

[free_electron]

The motor manufacturers don't use Windoze and Altium.


REAL engineers, like NASA, etc, use Unix. Pissy engineers use what overblown commercial vendors take from Unix and port to Windows with bells and whistles.

ehh... that time is gone...

Tesla is using altium exclusively for all their electronics.
and as for NASA. Spirit and Opportunity were also completely designed with Altium...

Other carmakers : BMW , Volkswagen are all using Altium for various parts.

The availability of tools Like Dassault systems Catia has sent the 'custom tools' to the garbage bin.

Unix workstations have also gone the way of the wind. Apollo, Sun ... all gone... Standard Pc hardware, Windows, VNC client into a farm.

[MatCat]

We are already at the point where phones and tablets are equaling or rivaling our desktops, I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years those of us who need a serious 'workstation' computer to do our work will just plug our phone/tablet into a docking station and or wireless connect to the keyboard / mouse / displays needed for work, there is no reason to have 2 machines when 1 can do the work of both.

What I see is programs like Altium going to way of WordPerfect in the transition from DOS to Windows, it lost it's market because it's software was no longer the best option for the current OS.  Personally I love Altium and hope it stays a strong viable package on whatever the current mainstream OS is, I even forgo primarily being in linux to use Windows just for Altium, something I don't do lightly, and in fact it's a bit of a contrast to a lot of the programming tools I use which mostly work in linux better then Windows, but it's easy enough with MinGW to do what I need.   I just don't see Windows being what most people are using in 5 years, not even serious engineers, I think by then the most important tools will be there and a user experience that is required to make it so will be there.  Had the *nix scene progressed to be the dominate OS instead of MS all the tools we use right now would be in a *nix environment, that's not how it went though, and all signs point to MS not being it in 5 years from now.  Who will be using it?  Like I said before those who need it for mission critical stuff with proprietary software that can't be easily replaced.  That's not to say there won't be people using MS Windows for their favorite CAD software from 5 years ago, but I don't think that will be the norm, just as it's not the norm today (Though there are still people using CAD software from 5 years ago, would be interesting to know how many).
 

[Pat Pending]

We are already at the point where phones and tablets are equaling or rivaling our desktops, I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years those of us who need a serious 'workstation' computer to do our work will just plug our phone/tablet into a docking station and or wireless connect to the keyboard / mouse / displays needed for work, there is no reason to have 2 machines when 1 can do the work of both.

I was thinking exactly the same thing, heck, in time you won't even need to take the phone out of your pocket to achieve those high bandwidth display connections.
Where is the DOS emulator for the smartphone? Sure would be fun (academic fun) to run Tango Schematic or PCB on it.

Then again I'm loathed to carry a multitude of devices with me. I'd rather open an editing session on the display glass (Corning glass of course) walls of the conference boardroom.
 

[Monkeh]

We are already at the point where phones and tablets are equaling or rivaling our desktops, I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years those of us who need a serious 'workstation' computer to do our work will just plug our phone/tablet into a docking station and or wireless connect to the keyboard / mouse / displays needed for work, there is no reason to have 2 machines when 1 can do the work of both.

We are?

No phone or tablet on the market can match my main machines in CPU or GPU power. These machines I built five years ago, and are utterly surpassed by current hardware. You may want to check again.

[free_electron]

Tango Schematic or PCB on it.

aaaaaaaaagh. where is my set of large needles. i'm gonna gouge my eyes out....

[Mechatrommer]

We are already at the point where phones and tablets are equaling or rivaling our desktops,

i believe you dont quite get what dave said earlier. let me do it again... clothing.. your shirts, jeans trousers everything and everybody far more surpassing phones and tablets. no? i mean you are talking orange and apple two different machine with different purpose. tablets can only rival PC if... it has 23" wide screen (the bigger the better), fullsize keyboard for full 10 fingers typing, a printer that can fit A4 in for documentation etc etc, in the end guess what? a desktop. you are not going to bring 23" tablet around. but undoubtedly, tablet is really good, good at what? at filling boring time and play crush candy. now dont take it as an offense. OS war should not be taken seriously, only "unreal" engineer that will take it seriously

What I see is programs like Altium going to way of WordPerfect in the transition from DOS to Windows.

not a good example. you are talking about a transition from a PC to a PC. you are talking about OS obsolesence, not a HW concept obsolesence.

to a lot of the programming tools I use which mostly work in linux better then Windows, but it's easy enough with MinGW

i installed Qt with MinGW this night and tried to compile something, guess what i need to copy many Qt*.dll files into my system folder, but before i completed all the dll copy, they already reaching hundreds of MB, something that i never see happening in Windows my entire life, so it was a no go last night i deleted them all. i'll look into it next time as this is my first timer not so good experience.

[Rufus]

I just don't see Windows being what most people are using in 5 years, not even serious engineers,

I do for the same reason I see keyboards with QWERTY layout being what most people are using in 5 years time.