Altium Designer new pricing model and high end / low end tool in development

[DerekG]

The company usually makes a computer available for you to work on, with access to the software and licenses.

Correct. I normally quote on the basis that I will work from my own offices on the design. One of the companies I contract to actually loads their copy onto a small form cube computer. Much faster than most laptops, easy to attach a large screen (or two) & yet easy to cart around. This particular cube computer has 2 x solid state HDD & weighs in at around 3KG -so it is easy to put in your luggage when travelling by air.

You can determine that the licence is valid when you log into Altium's Component Vault as it comes up with the registered name of the company that owns it.

[techydude]

These days I am finding more companies supply their own copy of the software for their new designs as this gives them complete control over the finished format. They then advertise for contractors who are familiar with the software on offer. It also means they have no issues later on with contractors using unregistered software.
2/ DipTrace is [good]... but they do need to work on their screen interface, components libraries & cut/copy/paste clipboard. A new beta version addresses some of these but currently it has some placement/movement issues that need resolving.
The most important thing is to determine what you require of the software. Many people purchase Altium & then never utilise its more powerful features. Some people squibble & buy DipTrace (& similar software) & then spend a lot more time on manual tasks that would have been much quicker/easier in Altium.
Many people think they will make a living out of contracting their services, yet find it difficult to score those contracts (remember most companies that have on-going designs have their own employees doing this design work).

Thanks. Now I too have joined the ranks of knowing what you use

I used Protel extensively through the 90s & early 2000s (DOS, then 98 & 99SE) then left the industry in 2003ish, until coming back into it all again in the last year or so.  I like DipTrace too & completed my first significant PCB with it a few months ago, & about to start another on it this weekend.  But DipTrace's rate of development seems very slow.  The current version's been around for over 12 months?  & the minor beta you refer to out for about 6?  It's not inspiring me with confidence for long term use.  Your thoughts on this?

I wasn't planning on investing in a new Altium license, especially not while it's in a price up-swing phase.  I got them down to $4750+gst, but that'll go up after 1July, with anybody's guess if there'll be a new license option to fill in the low end of the market...

Then in the past week I got a short term gig with a client that's started with some Altium PCB work, & having to come up to speed in v13 ASAP.  The demo version may or may not get me through that, or they "might" be able to let me use one of theirs (esp. if I drop my $/hour), but I guess there's the possibility of other clients popping up who require its use; as distinct from my preference for projects/clients where I can choose which ever EDA tool I want because I'm the principal designer. I now need to decide if it's worthwhile buying an Altium license for $4750+gst within the next 1.5 months (and stay on the upgrade bandwagon?).  As you say, it's the default choice for lots of places, & it'll be a crap shoot whether I get more work like this as an "extra wheel" & need to supply my own license... *sigh*

[DerekG]

But DipTrace's rate of development seems very slow.  The current version's been around for over 12 months?  & the minor beta you refer to out for about 6?  It's not inspiring me with confidence for long term use.  Your thoughts on this?

I wasn't planning on investing in a new Altium license, especially not while it's in a price up-swing phase.  I got them down to $4750+gst, but that'll go up after 1July, with anybody's guess if there'll be a new license option to fill in the low end of the market...

The latest "full" version of Diptrace was released in March 2013. The new Beta version of DipTrace 2.3.5 was released in February this year (2014). They will be receiving considerable feedback from their existing users to identify the major bugs in this beta. This process would normally take 3 or 4 months ......... maybe a little longer.

Once done, they will release another "full" version of Diptrace. It is actually a reasonably large step, not a small beta increment. It would not surprise me if the version is bumped to Ver 3.xx when it is released.

Some year's Diptrace release no new versions, in other year's they release 2 or 3 in a year (at no extra cost). At least they are not like Altium who for several years were releasing 2 versions every 12 months (remember the Summer & Winter Editions) which was being done to simply extract extra $$ from their customers.

When you own previous versions of Altium they tend to work out upgrade pricing with the 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 & 3/4 formula. They simply look at the cost of the current version and multiply by one of the fractions above to arrive at the price they quote you. It all depends on how old your existing version is.

Once you are on the bandwagon with the latest version, you can simply calculate the "maintenance cost" every 12 months at being a little less than $2K to continue to be offered current releases. If you are designing boards day in day out, this cost is probably not too bad.

[n3wbie]

I now need to decide if it's worthwhile buying an Altium license for $4750+gst within the next 1.5 months (and stay on the upgrade bandwagon?).

I thought a license was $7k?

[Kean]

I thought a license was $7k?

A new license is about $7k, and will soon be more like $9k... but you *may* be able to negotiate a discounted upgrade price if you owned an older version.  (I did, but that was 3 years ago)

[Kean]

In fact... this morning Altium have sent out a special "limited time" upgrade offer, with upgrade prices ranging from AU$2995 to AU$4250.
(with a pretty nice offer if you're still on Protel 99SE)
Those prices include first year subs, but exclude Aussie GST.

[EEVmarty]

In fact... this morning Altium have sent out a special "limited time" upgrade offer, with upgrade prices ranging from AU$2995 to AU$4250.
(with a pretty nice offer if you're still on Protel 99SE)
Those prices include first year subs, but exclude Aussie GST.

Yep, i just emailed/phoned them 2 weeks ago, and was told my Protel 98 could be upgraded for $2,499aud (ex gst) up until end of June 2014.
Then prices go waaaay up to over $7k for an UPGRADE and around $12-13k for outright purchase.....sheesh.

I've been fighting Protel/Altium for 20+ years on their ambitous pricing and nothing had been done about it.

I reminded Altium AGAIN, that theyre not doing anything positive for the home-hobbyists market and alienating all of us, perhaps forcing us across to buy the somewhat affordable eagle system instead.

I'm told the "level entry" version is still being discussed and no release date has been set, but i have been assured "it wont be as cheap as eagle", so i guess we're looking at a $3k entry-level/limited version.

When i last enquired around 5 years ago, the salesperson suggested i enrol in a course, then i'm eligible to buy the student edition (exactly same as full version) for a measly $99+gst.
He said all i need to do is re-enroll in the course year after year to keep extending the license......with courses ranging from $500-$1500 it's still cheaper than the full purchase...


The only thing Altium are absolutely positively unquestionably doing is encouraging software piracy, enuff said ;-)

[AlfBaz]

with courses ranging from $500-$1500

make that $1500 - $5000, thanks LIB's

[techydude]

I now need to decide if it's worthwhile buying an Altium license for $4750+gst within the next 1.5 months (and stay on the upgrade bandwagon?).

I thought a license was $7k?

It is, but they offered me that lower price based on an upgrade of my very old version.

Now it looks like upgrades are even cheaper for the next 6 weeks.

[EEVblog]

Now it looks like upgrades are even cheaper for the next 6 weeks.

Altium always do that, it's a way to make the subscriber growth numbers look good for the end of financial year report.

[techydude]

In fact... this morning Altium have sent out a special "limited time" upgrade offer, with upgrade prices ranging from AU$2995 to AU$4250.
(with a pretty nice offer if you're still on Protel 99SE)
Those prices include first year subs, but exclude Aussie GST.

Kean,
Amazingly, I appear to have not yet been fed to their email list.  Could you forward this to me, please? techydude at gmail dot com
many thanks.

[n3wbie]

When i last enquired around 5 years ago, the salesperson suggested i enrol in a course, then i'm eligible to buy the student edition (exactly same as full version) for a measly $99+gst.
He said all i need to do is re-enroll in the course year after year to keep extending the license......with courses ranging from $500-$1500 it's still cheaper than the full purchase...

But the student version isn't supposed to be used commercially, right?

[Kean]

Could you forward this to me, please?

Done!

[EEVmarty]

But the student version isn't supposed to be used commercially, right?

Correct, but as a home-hobbyist that isn't an issue....however, if you are intending to sell your designs then you should buy the real license, even though many of us would have a tiny hobby side-income that still doesnt justify the HUGE pricing structure.....

GREED aint good  ;-(

[K6TR]

Just want to say thanks to for this discussion. I have found it very informative and influential in making my decision about which license to purchase. I have been surveying the market for a couple of years and deferring my pcb design work to a friend who has Dip Trace. I'm to the point where I want to start designing the boards myself. Right now I'm more in the hobbyist class than a commercial producer but I don't want the restrictions that come with Eagle or KiCAD both programs I view as Dead Ends. I watched Dave's video he did about a year ago when Altium announced that it was rethinking its business strategy with an eye towards offering a low end product. I even delayed my purchase decision to see what would come of it. And as ludznc revealed a few pages ago it appears Altium's arrogance is an old habit that will die hard. No one is interested in Slow Nickels anymore and Altium is no exception.

I think its time for Dave to update EEvblog 527. Last year Altium whacked its CEO and made overtures stating they were going to mend their ways and come out with a Free/Low Cost Version  of Designer. 18 months later we find out they have fallen off the wagon. I don't know about Dave or the members of the forum but I don't appreciate being trifled with in this manner. 

There is no doubt about it Altium is the 800 pound Gorilla of PCB Design Software. Regrettably IMO that has to be respected. But that doesn't mean I have to purchase their licenses. From what I have seen and read about DIP Trace it is a solid PCB Design Software Package. It's not perfect but nonetheless a very good program. Do they update and improve their product to meet the needs of its users ? That's a matter open to discussion. But DIP Trace files can be exported to Altium, if necessary, and 3rd Party Auto Routers can be imported into DIP Trace. All of these factors taken together make purchasing a DIP Trace License a no-brainer. With that said last Wednesday I purchased a DIP Trace Starter License with the intention of upgrading it in 90 Days, sooner if the Final Release of 2.3.5 comes out sooner.

So Dave when is 527 going to be updated with a more comprehensive analysis of the PCB Design Software available on the market ?

[mrpackethead]

For what its worth, i talked Altium into doing a deal for a competitive upgrade from "eagle" to Altium, and paid just over NZ$5000+GST for it.      I was cheeky and asked, and they did the deal.

[EEVblog]

So Dave when is 527 going to be updated with a more comprehensive analysis of the PCB Design Software available on the market ?

Comparing PCB packages is a huge undertaking. Just say'n...

[K6TR]

So Dave when is 527 going to be updated with a more comprehensive analysis of the PCB Design Software available on the market ?

Comparing PCB packages is a huge undertaking. Just say'n...

Thanks for the response Dave

Yes I concur comparing PCB Packages would a daunting task. Using the term "comprehensive analysis" was a poor choice of words.

As I see it we have a log jam on this matter. What the situation has evolved into is "Different Strokes for Different Folks", at least for the moment.

To me there are 3 Principle Players. Eagle for the Hobbyist/Experimenter Class, Altium for the Business/Developer segment and Dip Trace serving as a bridge between. Programs like KiCAD, OrCAD and Proteus are niche players who will exist as long as they can carve out a market share big enough to maintain a positive cash flow. That's not a good outlook for their future. I don't know much about the market other than Dave's statement that Altium holds about 50,000 seats which are considered lucrative seats.

I am suspicious Altium's flip flop on its position regarding the entry level product. I suspect there is a key shift in strategy among the Altium Board. I do think that Altium will eventually field an entry level product. But it will come as a result of a Take-over. I don't know the specifics of Nick Martin's dismissal but usually these types of actions come as a result of a fundamental shift in the dynamics of the company and/or the business environment. Most likely Martin's demise came about from a poor earns report combined with a report stating that Altium had hit "Maturity". Maturity meaning the growth in Seats will slow down dramatically. This would explain the hefty price hike come July 1. It's the only way for them to boost earnings now.

Altium's announcement that they were coming out with a low cost version of Designer was in all likelihood premature. The Board probably got some bad news and they hastily formed an interim policy. That policy was formulated based on long standing complaints. In the mean time the Board did what boards do in these circumstances, they commissioned a consulting firm to study Altium, its product line, the market, the prospects and determine the best course of action they should take. When they got the report back it said the market and its players were established. It also probably told them that if they rolled their own Low Cost PCB CAD Software they would meet with initial success but the process to increase market share would be a long and slow. The logical way to quickly increase market share is to take over a competitor and I would imagine that's what the consulting report advised them to do. So the plan to roll their own entry package was tossed back into the draw. That doesn't mean Altium has foreclosed on the offering.

It would seem to me that EAGLE is the juiciest candidate for Altium to buy up, they are the "Defacto Standard" for hobbyists. I don't know German Anti Trust Law but I would imagine that Altium would get more grief from the US Federal Trade Commission if it decided to pursue such an acquisition. Altium could hold the fall-back position of buying up Novram but the best target is Eagle. Even if it means taking a Wrecking Ball to their existing software package and starting over from scratch. Eagle represents the biggest market share. And that's what it's all about.....increasing Market Share.

[DerekG]

Proteus are niche players who will exist as long as they can carve out a market share big enough to maintain a positive cash flow.

Proteus receive more income these days on their microprocessor simulation products than on their PCB design software, so I believe they will be around for a good while yet.

I do think that Altium will eventually field an entry level product. But it will come as a result of a Take-over.

I believe it is all about making sure the learning curve remains the same. A takeover of another design product would be more work for them than cutting down a few features in their existing product. The takeover of P-CAD proved that it is too hard for Altium to keep the new product running for more than a few years.

Previous takeovers have occurred because Altium wanted the product to complement their own PCB design software (like CAMtastic) or because they wanted to remove a competitor from the marketplace (ie P-CAD).

Most likely Martin's demise came about from a poor earns report combined with a report stating that Altium had hit "Maturity".

Quite right. It was simply spin directed at the shareholders to show Altium had a plan to increase future profits.

This would explain the hefty price hike come July 1. It's the only way for them to boost earnings now.

Quite right.

their (Altium's) own Low Cost PCB CAD Software they would meet with initial success but the process to increase market share would be a long and slow.

Altiums big worry is "how many of their full paying customers actually need the full package?" and "how many of these full paying customers will simply migrate to the cheaper entry level version?"

It would seem to me that EAGLE is the juiciest candidate for Altium to buy up, they are the "Defacto Standard" for hobbyists.

If Altium bring out a cheaper entry version, EAGLE will die a slow death without having to purchase it. Remember that Element 14 purchased it to integrate with their components purchasing engine. Element 14 would not let it go cheaply.

http://www.premierfarnell.com/content/element14-accelerates-design-cycle-pcb-design-software-cadsoft-eagle-asia-pacific

I don't know German Anti Trust Law

Not a problem as EAGLE is not considered a "consumer product".

I would imagine that Altium would get more grief from the US Federal Trade Commission if it decided to pursue such an acquisition.

Again, not a "consumer product" plus the Feds would simply see it as an American operation extending its wings. So again, not a problem.

Altium could hold the fall-back position of buying up Novram

Which they would only be interested in doing if they wanted to remove DipTrace from the market place, perhaps by offering existing users a cheap crossgrade to Altium.

Just my 2c worth of course

[EEVblog]

It would seem to me that EAGLE is the juiciest candidate for Altium to buy up, they are the "Defacto Standard" for hobbyists.

Not going to happen. Eagle is owned by Element 14, and is strategic to their plans.
Ironically, Element 14 paid more for Eagle than the entire market value of Altium at the time a few years back.

[EEVblog]

Altium could hold the fall-back position of buying up Novram but the best target is Eagle. Even if it means taking a Wrecking Ball to their existing software package and starting over from scratch. Eagle represents the biggest market share. And that's what it's all about.....increasing Market Share.

Ironically, buying Novram would be a sensible options for several reasons:
1) It is written in Delphi, the same as Altium
2) The company is based in the Ukraine, where Altium also has an R&D center and a lot of their core PCB programming is done.

But ultimately it would be silly because Altium's goal is (or should be) to provide an easy upgrade path to the full version of Altium. You don't get that by providing a different package that works completely differently, you get that buy simply crippling the main package and providing realistic upgrade pricing levels.

[EEVblog]

Eagle represents the biggest market share. And that's what it's all about.....increasing Market Share.

As I said in the video, Altium could crush Eagle practically overnight and steal their market share by providing a better price point low end product, and a matching free version.
The ONLY reason Eagle is the defacto standard in the low end is because if had a free version when the hacker/maker movement rose up.

[T3sl4co1l]

To me there are 3 Principle Players. Eagle for the Hobbyist/Experimenter Class, Altium for the Business/Developer segment and Dip Trace serving as a bridge between.

There are several in the business range.  Cadence (e.g. OrCAD and related) and Mentor Graphics (e.g. PADS) come to mind.

From what I've seen, OrCAD isn't too bad, not nearly as pretty as Altium but not really frustrating; but why anyone would buy PADS, and for what price (anyone know how much it goes for?), is beyond me.

Tim

[n3wbie]

To me there are 3 Principle Players. Eagle for the Hobbyist/Experimenter Class, Altium for the Business/Developer segment and Dip Trace serving as a bridge between.

You're saying Dip Trace is better than Eagle? If that's true, why is Eagle so much more popular?

[Wilksey]

I don't see why people hate Eagle so much, I mean, the interface isn't all that nice if you are used to the standard way of Windows, I picked Eagle up a lot quicker than Altium, and Eagle although initially a bit daunting, not so unintuitive when you figure out some basics.
Yes Altium is good, if you can afford it, half of the features you don't need or will ever use, I would expect it to be 10x better for 10x the price, I can't see though that there are that many things you can do in Altium that Eagle can't do, it will be done in a different way, but thats personal preference, it might be harder to do in 1 package than in A N other, but again, you get used to it.

I have to use certain packages for work purposes, some I like, some I loathe, if I was working alone I would probably use Eagle all day everyday, yes DipTrace is a strong contender, but, you try both and pick the one you prefer, I find the library editor in eagle a breeze to use.

If Altium did bring out a low cost contender then yes people would try it, but the fact is that Altium is expensive, a low cost version would have to be quite special to complete with Eagle in my opinion, and they would not shoot themselves in the foot as they would lose potential sales in their normal Altium version, so for that reason I can't imagine they would ever bring out a useful low cost version, and how many would actually use it.

I see a lot of comments about Eagle being for "hobbyists", its a big part in the hobbyist community because they have a free version, if they didn't then more people would pirate professional packages such as altium and that would become the "hobbyist" tool of choice no doubt, DipTrace is low cost, another reason for being a part of the hobbyist community, I cannot honestly say I have seen requirements for a PCB designer to be using DipTrace, KiCAD (Which is also quite good for what it costs, free!), or any other package in such class, I have seen Altium, OrCAD and a surprising number of Eagle in professional (and military / government) job requirements, backed by E14 also makes it a favourite to a lot of professional companies, as most components come from Farnell / Newark etc.

Proteus is the best tool I have used for simulation of uC's, Eagle can integrate LTSpice, I haven't seen Proteus in any job requirements though, I am in the UK (South West), so I can only comment on what i've seen in this part of the world / country.
I know Eagle is quite big in France also as I know EE's in France who say it is more of a standard within professional companies over there, again, might be regional, but still.

Just my 2p's worth.