IEC plug/socket... live vs neutral?

[Nusa]

Remember this is an international forum. Every country or region has its own code, and it's not necessarily compatible with the code you know.

Regardless, making assumptions is dangerous. Don't assume the device is correct. Don't assume the wall outlet is correct. Unless you've personally checked it. Unplugging the device before opening it up is a generally smart thing to do.

[RGB255_0_0]

If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.

Ah.  Now I get it.  Trolling.  I was there when the electrician installed my new panel.  I can assure you my neutral is correctly installed and is tied to ground.  If you want to ignore the totality of a posting please just ignore it all.

Link the part that says you can use the neutral to act as Earth ground.

[hermit]

If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.

Ah.  Now I get it.  Trolling.  I was there when the electrician installed my new panel.  I can assure you my neutral is correctly installed and is tied to ground.  If you want to ignore the totality of a posting please just ignore it all.

Link the part that says you can use the neutral to act as Earth ground.

Again, selective reading on your part. It is all laid out in what I have posted.  But, let's pretend you aren't trolling.  If you are designing a product that needs to be switched on and off, which side would you switch and why? 

[Gyro]

It all seems pretty messy from the comfortable viewpoint of the UK. 

I know that products these days shouldn't care, but there's still a warm and fuzzy feeling about always having the fuse in the Live.

[hermit]

It all seems pretty messy from the comfortable viewpoint of the UK. 

I know that products these days shouldn't care, but there's still a warm and fuzzy feeling about always having the fuse in the Live.

No.  If they are switched they do care.    The switch is on the live for the same reason your warm fuzzy feeling fuse is.  Would you put the fuse on the ground side?

[newbrain]

Once again: there might not even be a neutral at all.
I learned about it at the university, since I lived in areas where both wires were hot, and thought that was the normal case.

And, when I'm in Italy, that's still the case, though the building is decently new and has been brought up to "code".

Never ever assume what's behind a wall socket.

[Tepe]

Would you put the fuse on the ground side?

Ground side? I'll assume you meant neutral.
Take a good look at that German Schuko outlet in the picture further up and think again.

[hermit]

Would you put the fuse on the ground side?

Ground side? I'll assume you meant neutral.
Take a good look at that German Schuko outlet in the picture further up and think again.

Obviously the discussion applies to systems that are polarized (define hot/neutral).  There is good reason to have polarized systems, safety is one.  In the US two wire gave way to 3 wire for a reason.

[glarsson]

Well, you are free to implement what you want, but this isn't how it is done in the real world.

Perhaps not in your world, but on our side of the pond it is common.

Polarized sockets and single wire switching (your world) or unpolarized sockets and double wire switching (my world).

[Tepe]

Would you put the fuse on the ground side?

Ground side? I'll assume you meant neutral.
Take a good look at that German Schuko outlet in the picture further up and think again.

Obviously the discussion applies to systems that are polarized (define hot/neutral).  There is good reason to have polarized systems, safety is one.  In the US two wire gave way to 3 wire for a reason.

Apparently large parts of Europe has chosen not to have polarized outlets and sockets even when using three wires and it would probably be a rare appliance that is designed solely to be used with polarized UK plugs in mind.

[SeanB]

Design rules for appliances are always going to be slightly schizophrenic. They call for both active and return ( or live and neutral) conductors to have equal insulation on them, and that they should both be treated as being live conductors. Then the same regulations say that you should not fuse the neutral, and that there should not be a switch in the neutral side ( double pole switches that are designed to safely switch both conductors are allowed though) in this. Non polarised mains calls for fusing of both active conductors, and for for a switch that is either single pole or double throw. Hard to reconcile them both in a product made for a world market, unless you have 2 versions.

[Benta]

Design rules for appliances are always going to be slightly schizophrenic. They call for both active and return ( or live and neutral) conductors to have equal insulation on them, and that they should both be treated as being live conductors. Then the same regulations say that you should not fuse the neutral, and that there should not be a switch in the neutral side ( double pole switches that are designed to safely switch both conductors are allowed though) in this. Non polarised mains calls for fusing of both active conductors, and for for a switch that is either single pole or double throw. Hard to reconcile them both in a product made for a world market, unless you have 2 versions.

You're mixing up appliances and installations. There is no disconnect in the codes.

For appliances, it makes perfect sense to treat live and neutral the same, as in some areas of the world the plug can be rotated 180 deg without problem, and also, you never know which dork changed the plug at some point.

For installations, it's a different story, as they should be done by professionals, and switching and fusing only the live makes sense to avoid a ton of copper in the house.

[hermit]

Well, you are free to implement what you want, but this isn't how it is done in the real world.

Perhaps not in your world, but on our side of the pond it is common.

Polarized sockets and single wire switching (your world) or unpolarized sockets and double wire switching (my world).

In the US, residential power is 240V single phase with a grounded center tap on the transformer.  That center tap is what we call neutral.  Most of Europe seems to be 230V.  I can't find a transformer configuration to confirm your 'neutral'.  Indeed, it would explain the double pole switch and lack of polarization at the plug.  Here we have a similar requirement because both legs would be considered 'hot'.  I guess we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing here. 

[glarsson]

In the US, residential power is 240V single phase with a grounded center tap on the transformer.  That center tap is what we call neutral.  Most of Europe seems to be 230V.  I can't find a transformer configuration to confirm your 'neutral'.  Indeed, it would explain the double pole switch and lack of polarization at the plug.  Here we have a similar requirement because both legs would be considered 'hot'.  I guess we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing here.

The common installation here in Sweden is 230V three phase, neutral and ground arriving at the house (230V between phase and neutral, 400V between phases). Installations in the house is either three phase for some appliances (stove, heater) and single phase for normal outlets and lights (split over the three phases). Fuses and switches on the live side only. Outlets are non polarized (German Schuko). Most home appliances are double insulated and most likely witch both leads.

[ejeffrey]

I simply stated what is normally considered 'code'.  It has nothing to do with repair and everything to do with what can happen while it is sitting there doing nothing.  Having live current in an an otherwise idle device can do many things and probably most of them are bad.  That is why you switch the hot side.  If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.  Which side would you switch?

If, as you say, your job is to know what the code is and you say that "neutral can act as earth ground" you are terrible at your job.  There is nothing in modern US code that says you can ever treat neutral as ground or safe.

Yes, it is normal and allowed to only switch the live wire on polarized equipment.  But double insulated equipment can and does switch both side (if it has a switch at all).  That does not mean that "neutral side can act as ground" which that is a dangerous, irresponsible, and incorrect thing to say.

[Benta]

In the US, residential power is 240V single phase with a grounded center tap on the transformer.  That center tap is what we call neutral.  Most of Europe seems to be 230V.  I can't find a transformer configuration to confirm your 'neutral'.  Indeed, it would explain the double pole switch and lack of polarization at the plug.  Here we have a similar requirement because both legs would be considered 'hot'.  I guess we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing here.

The common installation here in Sweden is 230V three phase, neutral and ground arriving at the house (230V between phase and neutral, 400V between phases). Installations in the house is either three phase for some appliances (stove, heater) and single phase for normal outlets and lights (split over the three phases). Fuses and switches on the live side only. Outlets are non polarized (German Schuko). Most home appliances are double insulated and most likely witch both leads.

I concur with everything here, that's how installations are made within the EU. I disagree with the last few words, though, mostly just one lead is switched. The assumption is, that noone would be crazy enough to change a bulb or a fuse without unplugging the device first. But even if you do, you'd have to stick in your fingers a long way to get injured.

[hermit]

I simply stated what is normally considered 'code'.  It has nothing to do with repair and everything to do with what can happen while it is sitting there doing nothing.  Having live current in an an otherwise idle device can do many things and probably most of them are bad.  That is why you switch the hot side.  If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.  Which side would you switch?

If, as you say, your job is to know what the code is and you say that "neutral can act as earth ground" you are terrible at your job.  There is nothing in modern US code that says you can ever treat neutral as ground or safe.

Yes, it is normal and allowed to only switch the live wire on polarized equipment.  But double insulated equipment can and does switch both side (if it has a switch at all).  That does not mean that "neutral side can act as ground" which that is a dangerous, irresponsible, and incorrect thing to say.

Again, someone that wants to pull a few words out of context to prove their point.  If I go into my basement and find my circular saw half submerged in water from overnight flooding you are telling me the neutral CANNOT be acting as ground because that would be a "dangerous, irresponsible" thing for it to be doing?   

Maybe I should fire the electrician that tied my neutral to ground at the box and then proceeded to jump my water meter to make sure it had a path to ground.  Not only that he proceeded to run an entirely  new wire and drove an 8 foot stake into the ground to attach it too.  Maybe I should go cut that connection to make sure that the neutral cannot ever ground?  Geez, what people do on the internet to prove a friggin point....

[Monkeh]

If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.

Ah.  Now I get it.  Trolling.  I was there when the electrician installed my new panel.  I can assure you my neutral is correctly installed and is tied to ground.  If you want to ignore the totality of a posting please just ignore it all.

And when you have an open neutral conductor, everything on the ungrounded side suddenly becomes hot. When you have an open ground, in the absence of any other fault, neither side is dangerous. This is the difference between a ground conductor and a grounded live conductor.

So no, it cannot act as a ground conductor because that is not wired correctly.

[hermit]

So no, it cannot act as a ground conductor because that is not wired correctly.

So in my example of it sitting in a flooded basement you are saying the neutral cannot be acting as a ground? 

[Monkeh]

So no, it cannot act as a ground conductor because that is not wired correctly.

So in my example of it sitting in a flooded basement you are saying the neutral cannot be acting as a ground?

Not particularly more than the ground itself. I don't see why you're bringing flooding into a wiring discussion - unless you're really enjoying arguing.

[RGB255_0_0]

I simply stated what is normally considered 'code'.  It has nothing to do with repair and everything to do with what can happen while it is sitting there doing nothing.  Having live current in an an otherwise idle device can do many things and probably most of them are bad.  That is why you switch the hot side.  If wired correctly the neutral side can act as Earth ground.  Which side would you switch?

If, as you say, your job is to know what the code is and you say that "neutral can act as earth ground" you are terrible at your job.  There is nothing in modern US code that says you can ever treat neutral as ground or safe.

Yes, it is normal and allowed to only switch the live wire on polarized equipment.  But double insulated equipment can and does switch both side (if it has a switch at all).  That does not mean that "neutral side can act as ground" which that is a dangerous, irresponsible, and incorrect thing to say.

Again, someone that wants to pull a few words out of context to prove their point.  If I go into my basement and find my circular saw half submerged in water from overnight flooding you are telling me the neutral CANNOT be acting as ground because that would be a "dangerous, irresponsible" thing for it to be doing?   

I think you believe current goes to ground and not neutral. In fact I'm incredibly unsure what you are thinking here.

[hermit]

So no, it cannot act as a ground conductor because that is not wired correctly.

So in my example of it sitting in a flooded basement you are saying the neutral cannot be acting as a ground?

Not particularly more than the ground itself. I don't see why you're bringing flooding into a wiring discussion - unless you're really enjoying arguing.

Strangely enough, your example is the reason not to switch neutral.  The whole idea behind it is added safety.  I never said it should be used as ground.    A properly installed and functioning neutral will generally be at ground potential so you wouldn't switch it anymore than you would any other ground.  I don't see what is so hard about that concept.  Adding the third wire ground to the existing 2 wire system was to account for the possibility of an open neutral.  I've seen that happen only once in 35 years.

But hey, this is an internet forum and fact is based on votes so I'll concede that I'm out voted and leave it at that.   Last post so pile it on and I won't dissent.

[KL27x]

Wiring a wall outlet is one thing. Manufacturing a powercord is another.  I dont see any reason to make a power cord in both straight and crossover. But apparently in europe this makes the cord safer.

[Zero999]

Design rules for appliances are always going to be slightly schizophrenic. They call for both active and return ( or live and neutral) conductors to have equal insulation on them, and that they should both be treated as being live conductors. Then the same regulations say that you should not fuse the neutral, and that there should not be a switch in the neutral side ( double pole switches that are designed to safely switch both conductors are allowed though) in this. Non polarised mains calls for fusing of both active conductors, and for for a switch that is either single pole or double throw. Hard to reconcile them both in a product made for a world market, unless you have 2 versions.

You're mixing up appliances and installations. There is no disconnect in the codes.

For appliances, it makes perfect sense to treat live and neutral the same, as in some areas of the world the plug can be rotated 180 deg without problem, and also, you never know which dork changed the plug at some point.

For installations, it's a different story, as they should be done by professionals, and switching and fusing only the live makes sense to avoid a ton of copper in the house.

I don't think he is confusing appliances and installations.

If the mains plug, is non-polarised then it makes sense to assume that either active conductor is phase.

If there's a polarised mains plug, then it's perfectly reasonable to assume that live and neutral are correctly wired up and the fuse and switch should always be on the phase side. When designing an appliance one must assume the installation is wired correctly and one can't be held liable for a shock/fire due to a faulty installation, i.e. reversed phase and earth conductor. I doubt anyone designing something with a 3 phase + neutral plug, would presume phase and neutral are interchangeable and consider switching two of the phases and the neutral.

In the case of an IEC connector, it's difficult because it depends on where in the world the appliance is designed to be used. You may argue that one should presume that live and neutral should be interchangeable, even if it's designed for use in a location with polarised mains connectors, in case someone takes it to a place with non-polarised connectors, but that may cause it to break some regulations such as fusing the neutral and if you take this stance, then what if the appliance is only rated to 120VAC and taking it to Europe would destroy it?

[KL27x]

Device the "wrong" cord came with actually states that is runs at 110 or 240. The IEC plug has "10A 240V" molded into it.

I was curious if there was a country with a north American style plug on it but the code that stipulates the IEC cable must be wired opposite from how we would choose to make the cable in the US. Or if this is just the manufacturer of said cable "helping us backward Americans be safer."

Me, I sometimes have a device opened up and plugged in. Trying to make/build/fix things. All in all, I rather my fuse be on the live wire, cuz the "double insulation" isn't there when I have the case open. Even then it's probably not a big deal. But I still don't see benefit of making these cables random.

(Curiously, I also see a lot of people complaining about fuse being on wrong line where it comes to one dude's 858D or other Chinese device. Me, I think messing up a simple power cord, which is probably a huge volume highly batched/automated/assembly line affair, is a bigger show of complete and utter laziness.)