EEVblog #1099- BattBump - Dumbest Kickstarter Ever!

[cprobertson1]

1) they chose to be the public face of a kickstarter that was stupidly thought out. A kickstarter showing all the hallmarks of a lean startup approach to a solution that the people running it were *so* technically incompetent about, they didn't know where to even start to look for fundamental project killers before launch. (which is why the campaign was so hilarious and deserving of ridicule)

2) When questioned about tech details, the person answered, showing a complete lack of understanding of the issues involved. Just like you'd expect. But then the project started to change a bit. whatever final direction that change might have finally taken is now unknown, because pretty much immediately after this, they were attacked and the situation changed.

3) When attacked, and discovering  that the attack wasn't just on the startup idea, but also on their own junior professional reputation, they've done a couple of dumb things which are completely in line with their already obvious technical naivety. They have not launched sophisticated legal attacks or technical attacks (or even illegal attacks) on Dave or this website.  Like you'd expect from an actual real criminal with any resources behind them.

I'd like to understand why you believe this Kickstarter was created purely by stupidity rather than an attempt to part people with their money, as so many of these schemes have done in the past?

Would you be leaping to the perpetrators defence if it wasn't a woman?  Somehow I doubt it.

That's an interesting one (not the gender thing which I an staying well and truly clear from ): but rather, whether malice can or cannot be inferred.

The principle is known as "Hanlon's Razor", to wit:

Never assume malice when ignorance/stupidity/greed will suffice.

There is a corollary to this as well:

Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.
Never assume stupidity when ignorance will suffice.
Never assume ignorance when forgivable error will suffice.
Never assume error when information you hadn't adequately accounted for will suffice.

Either way, it is effectively the sociological equivalent of occam's razor - it requires fewer assumptions to assume that they are an idiot rather than a scammer; but of course, these aren't mutually exclusive concepts - which is why there are several corolories to the Razor!

There is also the possibility that the face-entity, Clark, represent one level (forgivable error > ignorance > stupidity) and a second entity convinced her it was a good idea - she may even have been headhunting at the time (does it sound like an idea a presenter/producer could have came up with?) - in which case the malicious party represents a second (but not necessarily controlling) level.

At this point, terse application of Occam's Razor suggests that this involves a lot of assumptions; which suggests that ignorance/stupidity may be the more likely scenario than malice.

That said, I doubt certain parties opining on the matter have really carried this through to its logical conclusion and are just white knighting, as you pointed out (in other words, irrationally defending their innocence rather than rationally suggesting their innocence; either way, I don't have enough info to opine )

[elgonzo]

the privacy complaint is key ...to this.  hell has no fury, like a woman scorn'd . my guess is the bump kickstarter was by a feminist.
with A lack of scientific rigor! your a man and so am I.  go figure. (research new age feminist revolution & war on masculinity ) as to why this type of Infiltration is happening to forums like this!

Of course it was just a matter of time until someone had to screech "feminism!" without a reason. Man, your life must suck. 

[elgonzo]

The principle is known as "Hanlon's Razor", to wit:

Never assume malice when ignorance/stupidity/greed will suffice.

Judge: Your motivation for robbing the plaintiff was greed?
Defendant: Yes, your honor. I am just a greedy person.
Judge: But didn't you know that this was an unlawful action?
Defendant: Your honor, i don't know. I am ignorant about the laws and the rules of society.
Judge: Alright. I declare herewith the defendant has to return the stolen goods and - as i do not see malice in his actions - is acquitted of all other charges.

I don't know where you did get that weird version of Hanlon's Razor (source?), but greed and (deliberate) ignorance quite often fuel malice.

[cprobertson1]

The principle is known as "Hanlon's Razor", to wit:

Never assume malice when ignorance/stupidity/greed will suffice.

Judge: Your motivation for robbing the plaintiff was greed?
Defendant: Yes, your honor. I am just a greedy person.
Judge: But didn't you know that this was an unlawful action?
Defendant: Your honor, i don't know. I am ignorant about the laws and the rules of society.
Judge: Alright. I declare herewith the defendant has to return the stolen goods and - as i do not see malice in his actions - is acquitted of all other charges.

I don't know where you did get that weird version of Hanlon's Razor (source?), but greed and (deliberate) ignorance quite often fuel malice.

Lol, whoops - "greed" shouldn't be on there and I was conflating "incompetence" with "ignorance"

I should have said "Never attribute to malice what could equally be explained by stupidity/incompetence"

The corollary was cribbed from a commenter on a lesswrong article.

And that's why one shouldn't post in a hurry

[chriva]

What can be said? I'm sitting here with a smug face thinking -"She'll not try that again" 

Sure. People are a tad too mean but setting harsh examples like this will discourage future a-holes...

[Fungus]

I'd like to understand why you believe this Kickstarter was created purely by stupidity rather than an attempt to part people with their money, as so many of these schemes have done in the past?

That's an interesting one (not the gender thing which I an staying well and truly clear from ): but rather, whether malice can or cannot be inferred.

The original campaign said (and I quote): "This tech is currently available and the app utilizes this technology".

Here's another 'before' (and after) capture of the Kickstarter campaign:


Who would read that and not think they've already done some NFC charging, that the tech works?

Who could write that accidentally if they weren't trying to mislead?

[timelessbeing]

Ignorance or Malice ... it doesn't matter when the outcome is harmful. The neglect of consideration is a form of malice, and should be punished as such (provided that the faculties are there, and proving that is the prickly part.)

[jonovid]

lack of scientific rigor! IMO  I stand by my comment 

[julianhigginson]

my guess is the bump kickstarter was by a feminist.
with A lack of scientific rigor! your a man and so am I.  go figure. (research new age feminist revolution & war on masculinity ) as to why this type of Infiltration is happening to forums like this!

Hey, I thought there was a rule, No politics in the forum?

Unfortunately I see this kind of deranged toxic dribble popping up here a LOT, and I never see it challenged. Or the no politics rule brought up.

So are we really non-political here, or are we political but complete snowflakes with a cultivated victim narrative (despite modern white western men being literally the most pampered and pandered to demographic in the history of humanity?) who can't actually stand up to any challenges against their ridiculous youtube conspiracy theory opinions?

[julianhigginson]

I'd like to understand why you believe this Kickstarter was created purely by stupidity rather than an attempt to part people with their money, as so many of these schemes have done in the past?

Would you be leaping to the perpetrators defence if it wasn't a woman?  Somehow I doubt it.

Because the stupidity of their response to the attack they suffered is consistent with the kind of technical naievity that was shown in the video.

And the video and campaign were entirely consistent with standard lean startup approach.

Of course they wanted to make money. That's what anyone running a Kickstarter does. But wet know very little more about what their intent actually was because the attack on the person behind it caused the whole campaign to be pulled before they actually did anything..

And I'd like to state that I'm not the one bringing up anyone's gender here. It's a bunch of snowflake right wing nobodies hiding behind fake account names that brought the issue of gender into this by repeatedly echoing "white knight" and loudly proclaiming that the only reason anyone would think their awful behaviour was awful must be because the target is a woman.

Seriously. Those facts you quoted from me are the only 3 things we know about this whole mess. The rest is a bunch of cowards going on a rampage against somebody who actually had caused no harm in the world. (Unlike batteroo and that blood test fraud and all the other things you are breathlessly conflating with this campaign)

Repeated insistence that I'm only here because of this targets gender points far more at the real reasons behind the people claiming it of me, than it does my reasons.

[Brumby]

Possibly.  However, another alternative is that she was ignorant of the details, embarrassed when the truth came to light and naive to think she could remove the evidence.

She created a scam to take people's money, the Internet called her on it.

What should we do? Keep quiet to avoid hurting her feelings?

Some people here seem to think so.   

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying anyone should back off from calling her out - far from it.

What I am saying is that I get the feeling she was used as a "front man".  While her naivety and ignorance allowed her to get sucked in, the stark realisation of the facts caused her great embarrassment, resulting in the Olympic back-pedalling effort.

I have no real evidence for this - but I cannot shake the feeling.


Just to make my attitude quite clear - whether through naive ignorance or nefarious intent - all such cases need to be brought under close scrutiny and "outed".

[John B]

"Snowflake right wing nobody who hides behind a fake account name" shall henceforth be known as the most novel description of Wilfred in the forum's history.

[westfw]

She created a scam to take people's money, the Internet called her on it.
What should we do? Keep quiet to avoid hurting her feelings?

Move on to the next scam.  It's not like there's any shortage.
I mean.  You did it!  You exposed the scam, shut down the kickstarter, and chased the scammer off the Internet!  Congratulations!
If she reappears with another scam, you can do it again.
But it's DONE ALREADY.  Continued gloating, speculation, and so on as to motivations, causes, innate intelligence, political views, and so on, of the scammer(s) are just ... making us look bad.
Sheesh.  Federico Musto faked an MIT engineering degree and came pretty close to destroying Arduino, and got fewer personal comments...

[EEVblog]

And I'd like to state that I'm not the one bringing up anyone's gender here.

Rubbish.
Wilfred started the whole gender thing and you piled on in the very next post.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1099-battbump-dumbest-kickstarter-ever!/msg1643669/#msg1643669

Everyone stop talking about gender, it has nothing to do with this.
And stop attacking each other.
I'm not going to lock one of my own linked forum threads, so my only option is to start deleting posts if all this silliness continues.

[X]

Now that we've finished talking about gender, christmas-grade meteorology, and bits of an aeroplane, I have an idea for a Battcoin miner made out of huge SLA batteries connected to a 5V regulator connected to a smartphone that is on for the sole purpose of giving people battery usage. 

[erkko]

And I'd like to state that I'm not the one bringing up anyone's gender here.

Rubbish.
Wilfred started the whole gender thing and you piled on in the very next post.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1099-battbump-dumbest-kickstarter-ever!/msg1643669/#msg1643669

Everyone stop talking about gender, it has nothing to do with this.
And stop attacking each other.
I'm not going to lock one of my own linked forum threads, so my only option is to start deleting posts if all this silliness continues.

if possible, perhaps delete and censor them publicly.

[wilfred]

Rubbish.
Wilfred started the whole gender thing and you piled on in the very next post.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1099-battbump-dumbest-kickstarter-ever!/msg1643669/#msg1643669

MOD: Off-topic gender politics removed.

I don't know why the observation was so objectionable unless it was feared that the response would be more likely to confirm the point.

So I didn't make the post to antagonise you Dave and I certainly didn't make  it to fan the flames. I made it to alert those forum members who may have got caught up in the moment to reflect on their post and be moderate lest they say something they might later prefer to have said differently. Just as you sometimes claim these debunking and scam videos are justified if they can save even one person from falling victim, I too make my points in the hope someone will pause to reflect.

I reject that a single post I made in this thread was done with any intention to antagonise you Dave. Or any post I have ever made. I am certainly aware you are sensitive to criticisms I make, but that is not the same as making them with the intent to antagonise you. I humbly think I make well considered points as directly as I can. Whether they are well made is still open but I do try to cut through to the heart of the matter that I think is important. I don't believe I engage in personal attacks or become engaged in slanging matches. If what I say was just plain wrong then they should just fall to one side as the ravings of a lunatic.

Dave I can assure you that if I retained some interest in helping you avoid dragging yourself and the EEVblog into the shit before this thread, I think you have drifted well beyond salvation now. I cannot believe you can look back on this bit of fun, as you've told me these debunking threads are, with any pride at all. What you need to look at is not the number of people who come out and agree with me, it is the number of people who openly disagree with me.

These videos are a total waste of your time and this one more than most was just nauseating to watch unfold.

It is not what I say about this video that you should find antagonising it is your lack of good judgement in making it in the first place. I challenge you to tell me you're proud of it and this forum discussion thread. I can assure those reading this that will not happen.

[grythumn]

It is not what I say about this video that you should find antagonising it is your lack of good judgement in making it in the first place. I challenge you to tell me you're proud of it and this forum discussion thread. I can assure those reading this that will not happen.

I don't know why you're making it about gender; this is about, at best, a grossly irresponsible fundraiser attempt, at worst willful fraud. Exposing such is unquestionably a good thing.

-R C

[Fungus]

I don't know why you're making it about gender; this is about, at best, a grossly irresponsible fundraiser attempt, at worst willful fraud.

You're being far too generous. Everything about the wording of the original Kickstarter implied they already had the charging working, that it only needed the app to be written and to be fully tested on "new and flagship models".

[StillTrying]

It's always best to predict that software development will go smoothly, because it always does. Especially when you're claiming to transfer a few Watts of battery power through a 3mW communications chip which isn't even connected to the battery. What could possibly go wrong, well actually now we know!

[X]

It was topical in the News in Australia at the time with regards to "Sarah Hanson-Young and David Leyonhjelm" and the treatment of women in politics and the media. SBS TV presenter for the World Cup Lucy Zelic had also been in the news facing criticism ostensibly about the way she attempted to correctly pronounce foreign players names. Les Murrey a popular former football presenter did the same thing but did not get the vitriolic criticism for it. It is the purview of SBS to embrace multiculturalism and Lucy Zelic stated that attempting to pronounce names properly was a way of displaying respect.

So in view of the topicality of women receiving unnecessarily harsh criticism possibly for reasons of gender, I was drawn to the observation that many of these threads bore the surprising link in common. I don't think they were started for that reason but it is undeniable that some posts do take gender into account. Not just in this thread but in the others too. There is no reason to think the EEVblog forum draws only from a pool of saintly, noble people. I'm proof of that.

Oh yes I totally agree, all of this is totally relevant to this thread. Sarah Hanson-Young is one of the most well respected electrical engineers in the world. Did you know David Leyonhjelm invented the space probe? Lucy Zelic was the first astronaut to test it out too, and she was smart enough to carry a couple of Battcoins in case she got mugged by aliens.
I remember this disagreement between Sarah Hanson-Young and David Leyonhjelm in the news; it was about whether to use pine or mahogany for the table on which the first BattBump experiment was to be tested on, and boy was it a tough fight (spoiler alert: they went with MDF from Bunnings).

These videos are a total waste of your time and this one more than most was just nauseating to watch unfold.

Then don't watch them.

It is not what I say about this video that you should find antagonising it is your lack of good judgement in making it in the first place. I challenge you to tell me you're proud of it and this forum discussion thread. I can assure those reading this that will not happen.

I'm glad Dave makes these videos, the more popular they are, the more they become somewhat of a public service announcement.

It's always best to predict that software development will go smoothly, because it always does. Especially when you're claiming to transfer a few Watts of battery power through a 3mW communications chip which isn't even connected to the battery. What could possibly go wrong, well actually now we know!

Just chuck in a relay and she'll be right. 

[Fungus]

Has anybody told our heroine that the BattBump app will work if you just take out the "bump" part and use a $2 piece of wire instead?

According to Kickstarter: She needs money to develop an app to connect people so they can share electrons and gain blockchains as rewards.

Is she aware that all of that can still go ahead, exactly as planned. 

(I know it's been mentioned here, has anybody told her about it?)

Maybe Dave could make a short video to let her know - we know she watches Dave's videos.

Her dream can still be realized, we just can't "bump" (yet!)

[Halcyon]

Has anybody told our heroine that the BattBump app will work if you just take out the "bump" part and use a $2 piece of wire instead?

According to Kickstarter: She needs money to develop an app to connect people so they can share electrons and gain blockchains as rewards.

Is she aware that all of that can still go ahead, exactly as planned. 

(I know it's been mentioned here, has anybody told her about it?)

Maybe Dave could make a short video to let her know - we know she watches Dave's videos.

Her dream can still be realized, we just can't "bump" (yet!)

Yes, but all of that required effort and work on her part, rather than just getting money for 30 minutes work on a crappy app.

[NiHaoMike]

Now that we've finished talking about gender, christmas-grade meteorology, and bits of an aeroplane, I have an idea for a Battcoin miner made out of huge SLA batteries connected to a 5V regulator connected to a smartphone that is on for the sole purpose of giving people battery usage. 

SLA is not that cheap - it's possible to get lithium for cheaper. Conventional deep cycle is still cheaper (initially), but isn't exactly good for carrying around. I think the best way to go about it would be to start with a portable USB charger design and add a little Bluetooth chip to enable it to mine Battcoins.

[EEVblog]

I reject that a single post I made in this thread was done with any intention to antagonise you Dave. Or any post I have ever made. I am certainly aware you are sensitive to criticisms I make, but that is not the same as making them with the intent to antagonise you.

Bullshit.
You have been deliberately antagonising me at every available opportunity for years. I have warned you both publicly and privately before, and you even apologised for it once and said you wouldn't do it again.

These videos are a total waste of your time and this one more than most was just nauseating to watch unfold.

Do me and everyone else a favor and don't watch them or comments on them any more. You've had you say, I don't want to hear it any more.

I challenge you to tell me you're proud of it and this forum discussion thread. I can assure those reading this that will not happen.

I am proud of my debunking videos.
The public forum is the public forum.
Now will you just please bugger off.