Author Topic: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37  (Read 54392 times)

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Offline PawelW

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Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« on: October 14, 2009, 06:10:56 pm »
This post is related to Episode #37.
Let's start discussion about possibility to extend functionality of Rigol DS1052E.
Can we extend analog bandwidth to 100 Mhz?
Can we add Logic analyser?
Can we modify firmware?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 08:49:10 pm »
Here are the photos of the 100MHz unit:
http://home.comcast.net/~ajawam1/rigol/RIGOL_DS1102E_GUTS.html
Unfortunately the user was only interested in the crappy soldering on his unit, so it's not a complete set of photos. I've asked if he has any more, but haven't heard back yet.
It's enough to see some of the missing components on the DS1052E are still missing on the DS1102E.

Dave.
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 08:58:07 pm »
Note: OMG, I just finished to write this post and I see that you replied with a link with pictures of a bad soldering job... Draw your own conclusions!!!  :o :o
I didn't change it to reflect new informations:


It may be a hint, or maybe not..

If the limit is implemented in hardware, I guess it would be easier to produce the same PCB for both the products and then let an underpaid chinese add the missing component. This would imply imperfections in the soldering job. Also, it would be difficult to solder inside the metal shield, so I guess that the component is outside them. Now take a look at this:
http://www.eevblog.com/images/DS1052E-ADCsupport2.jpg
Do you see any solder imperfections? Maybe components from a clearly different batch?
I see two possible flux residues: on the chip in the middle-top, and on the chips in the far left.
-The chips in the left are probably TLC2274 (the most similar name I could find), quad op-amps. The lower one has a place for a component connected to pin 7. It's the only not mounted component in all the section! (besides one resistor on the bottom right). Also, that pin is connected to another resistor. Maybe it's a matter of moving that part to the free place? I don't think so.
-The chip in the middle has a resistor connected to pin 12 and 13. This resistor, the one below it, and the similar one on the right of the "3EM" transistor, are the only 3 components mounted in an imperfect way in this section of the board. Coincidence?

What do you all think?  ???
 

Offline Ferenczyg

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 10:37:06 pm »
Hi

Well I was seriously considering buying the 100 MHz one after seeing the 50 MHz one review, and after your #37 you almost blown my mind with the part about that just a non-custom component could make the difference.  Also, it is almost unbeliveable for me that they are asking about 250$ for the 50MHz one and about 500$ for the 100 MHz one (ebay prices), it is basically like asking for 250$ for just that component.

By now I will wait a little before buying one or the other until this pointbecomes more clear, at least you've saved 250$ to me ;) and for sure I will follow this thread with a lot of interest.

Thx you all
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 10:41:17 pm by Ferenczyg »
 

Offline mttee2

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 11:48:24 pm »
Here are the photos of the 100MHz unit:
http://home.comcast.net/~ajawam1/rigol/RIGOL_DS1102E_GUTS.html
Unfortunately the user was only interested in the crappy soldering on his unit, so it's not a complete set of photos. I've asked if he has any more, but haven't heard back yet.
It's enough to see some of the missing components on the DS1052E are still missing on the DS1102E.

Dave.

OMG. Look at the crappy soldering. There is a sudden drop of 100USD for DS1052E around the month of July. Does this manufacturing quality has any relationship to the price difference?  ???
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 06:21:17 am »
Yesterday I managed to remove the warranty sticker without damaging it. Maybe I'll open it on the weekend. Dave, how did you remove the handle? I don't want to ruin the plastic...
 

Dynomo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2009, 06:51:29 am »
Thanks for the pictures Dave. Though they are not great, comparing the 2 it looks like they have reworked or changed a cap in both canned sections. Rework both ? and nothing else? , probably change a component is more like it. Other than that the canned section components look identicle. Looks like they have been changing caps in other places as well manually.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 07:00:57 am by Spark »
 

GeekGirl

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 12:37:58 pm »
I am also following this thread with interest, I have a TDS220 but it has RS232, the Tek software does work if I change the comms speed :( it only runs at 4800bps.

I like the idea of USB for transfer of settings and waveforms.

 

Offline charliex

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 04:42:01 pm »
there is a fairly long discussion on the rigol in here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958 (which ends up back to eevblog at the end)

I umm'd and ahh'd a long time about the rigol/owon, at the time i could only find one review which didn't go into a lot of detail so i went with a TDS2024B, it just seemed to good to be true.

the firmware is reported to be in the ultrascope http://www.rigolna.com/download_oscilloscopes.aspx software, i've seen a few being based around on the net that were directly from rigol, but it seems they go quiet sometimes. I can't see the firmware in the ultra scope files i looked at, unless its embedded into the exe, but i don't see any mention of it either.

as a side note, its cool to hack them up for faster speeds, but don't compare the price difference as just being the cost of the components used to make the changes.
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 05:50:45 pm »
Ok... I found something, but I found nothing. Look at this: http://www.eevblog.com/images/DS1052E-ADCsupport2.jpg
Do you see the resistor just above the HC4053M? Well, Dave and the other guy got the same value... Mine is different! Mine reads "242", theirs is "30b" or "306".
What do you think?
 

Dynomo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 05:55:21 pm »
Yours is 50mhz or 100mhz scope ?
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2009, 05:57:18 pm »
It's a 50MHz..
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2009, 06:01:56 pm »
By the way, the soldering job on my unit (purchased around aug 2009) is simply PERFECT!! I didn't even have a flux residue as Dave, and the resistors mentioned earlier are all soldered correctly.
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2009, 06:04:50 pm »
Also: Dave, did you break the power switch?? I see the orange part in the video... And how did you manage to remove the thing around the power connector?
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2009, 06:32:46 pm »
It's still a 4K difference... Well, maybe it's just a pull up.
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2009, 06:59:35 pm »
Yeah, sorry, I'm not in my best mental capabilities right now... Btw, I found that chart as well when you posted about EIA values! :)
Well, I'm almost out of ideas right now.. I think I'll take the bruteforce method and start touching components until I see a change in the cut frequency.
Suggestions?
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2009, 07:02:23 pm »
P.S.: I think that the only difference in software is the text in the "about" screen. My scope has been able to measure up to 300MHz (attenuated).
Also, the quartz with gold legs that is mounted face down in Dave's pictures, is mounted with the value facing up on mine: it's a 100.000MHz one! ;)
 

Offline Ferenczyg

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2009, 12:10:09 am »
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 12:13:54 am by Ferenczyg »
 

Offline Mastro Gippo

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2009, 03:45:04 pm »
Ok, my dad got me the signal generator and another dso. Please send your sugestions quickly as I have to return them monday!!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2009, 09:39:50 pm »
Yesterday I managed to remove the warranty sticker without damaging it. Maybe I'll open it on the weekend. Dave, how did you remove the handle? I don't want to ruin the plastic...

No need to remove the handle, just the two screws under the handle.
Watch out for the power button, I broke mine! in my haste to get the cover off. So now my scope is permanately switch on!
If the switch can be pulled out before you take the case off then do it, otherwise it's hard to get the case over the power switch.
The cover plate over the main input socket is a sticking point, I managed to prise the case up enough with a screw driver to lift it over the cover plate which then just fell out.
With no power switch and no cover plate, the cover just slides right off.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2009, 09:43:02 pm »
-The chips in the left are probably TLC2274 (the most similar name I could find), quad op-amps.

That was my thought too, although they only have a gain-bandwidth of 2MHz, so this is puzzling.
Can't see how they could be anything but a quad op-amp.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2009, 09:54:02 pm »
Ok, my dad got me the signal generator and another dso. Please send your sugestions quickly as I have to return them monday!!

Prove the various marked gold test points and try to find a single ended version of the input signal. The one that goes to the ADC is differential, so there has to be a diffamp there somewhere. Once you've found that, feed in a 1MHz sine wave at close to full scale range to establish a baseline signal level, then just ramp it up and see at what frequency it's down by 3dB. Assuming your signal gen is stable over that range of course.
The metal can on the front end makes a convenient ground clip point.
Be careful with the exposed power supply!

Dave.
 

Offline jimmc

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2009, 10:28:23 pm »
I suspect that there is a discrete component amplifier for the main (HF) signal path and that these amplifiers are used to servo its operating point to ensure DC accuracy.

For an example see the extract from an LG 'scope circuit attached

Jim
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2009, 01:00:53 am »
For an example see the extract from an LG 'scope circuit attached

That shows up as scrambled lines in my Foxit reader

dave.
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Rigol DS1052E Ep#37
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2009, 02:10:14 am »
converted it to a rather large png for you. http://www.goth.am/lgcircuit.png
 


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