Aussies on a rant

[mtdoc]

False.

From your own prior source and another portion of the same Gallup survey...

80% of people blame inadequate mental health care wholly or largely for gun violence issues ->
http://www.gallup.com/poll/164507/americans-fault-mental-health-system-gun-violence.aspx

And 50% of people in that same survey want guns laws to be the same or less strict as they are now ->
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

That really has absolutely nothing to do with what I said - complete straw man.

What I said is "The problem is that the most strident supporters of completely unregulated gun rights are generally the same ones who oppose any sort of health care reform"

Blaming the mental health system is not the same as being in favor of reform of health care. I suspect it is also true that many of the 20% that do not blame the mental health system are for no regulation of guns at all.

I'm not sure what the point is of citing polls that in no way refute what I said. I think we agree on the general points of 2nd amendment rights and need for better mental health care funding.

Do you disagree that many of the (often very vocal) 14% who think current gun laws are too strict are also opposed to reform of the health care system?

That was my point, nothing more.

[mtdoc]

The problem is that the most strident supporters of completely unregulated gun rights are generally the same ones who oppose any sort of health care reform (keep your gub'mint hands of my medicare,etc).  I can say from my daily first hand experience that funding for mental health care is pathetic and completely inadequate.

And also the sort who don't give a fuck about mental health at all. It's either your fault and you should just man up, or you're a crazy and they don't care about you (neglecting to think as far as to realize that getting you care would help other people, or just - as I rather suspect - not caring about helping anybody).

God, there are some ugly people in this country.

Aint that the truth.  To be fair similar ugly people exist worldwide, it's just that they seem to be particularly vocal and public in this country.

[Corporate666]

Um, no.

You said

The problem is that people who want gun control (mostly) really just want a gun ban.

Which is not the same as saying a small majority of those who want  gun control want to ban guns. Which is also false.

It is not even the same as saying "most of the people who want gun control want to ban guns" which even that is incorrect.

Per the Gallup survey

Percentage happy with current gun control: 38%
Percentage who want stricter gun control: 47%

i.e. the total percentage of people who want some gun control = 85%

Percentage who want to ban handguns: 26%

So at best one could truthfully say that a small majority of those who want more gun control also want to ban hanguns.  That is not what you said.

It's pretty obvious that "people who want gun control" are people who want gun control from the context of where we are now - which is, they are in favor of more gun control.  And your link proves that correct.  Most of those support a complete ban on guns. 

Your assertion that such a claim is "hysteria whipped up by gun nuts" is patently false.  Your own study proves it.  Trying to claim otherwise by characterizing it as "a small majority" doesn't change things.  A majority = most.  End of story.

If you want to hang your argument on the fact that you thought I meant "people who are happy with what we have now" when I said "people who want gun control", then good luck with that - it's pretty obvious what I meant, as is it is pretty obvious what "most" means.

[Corporate666]

That really has absolutely nothing to do with what I said - complete straw man.

What I said is "The problem is that the most strident supporters of completely unregulated gun rights are generally the same ones who oppose any sort of health care reform"

Blaming the mental health system is not the same as being in favor of reform of health care. I suspect it is also true that many of the 20% that do not blame the mental health system are for no regulation of guns at all.

I'm not sure what the point is of citing polls that in no way refute what I said. I think we agree on the general points of 2nd amendment rights and need for better mental health care funding.

Do you disagree that many of the (often very vocal) 14% who think current gun laws are too strict are also opposed to reform of the health care system?

That was my point, nothing more.

So if you think that "messing with health care" is a completely different issue than quality of mental health care, I am not sure why you drew some kind of parallel between the two.  It appears clear from the link I posted that most gun owners recognize health care as a serious issue in terms of gun laws/crimes.

As for the 14% who vocally oppose new gun laws - I think it may be true that they are often also opposed to health care reform, but I am sure you are painting the whole group with an overly broad brush and I don't think you have anything to support that claim other than anecdotal evidence.  From your prior post I see that you let beliefs on issues overrule data - so I don't think it's likely to be a reasoned conclusion and rather an emotional one.  Case in point - I don't think we need any new gun laws and I think many of the laws we have are stupid and should be revoked, but I am not vocal about it at all - and I think we need serious health care reform.

I think you're relying too heavily on the "god, guns and (anti) gays" stereotype when in reality, there are a lot of people (possibly and maybe even probably a majority) who don't fall into that group. 

[mtdoc]

Um, no.

You said

The problem is that people who want gun control (mostly) really just want a gun ban.

Which is not the same as saying a small majority of those who want  gun control want to ban guns. Which is also false.

It is not even the same as saying "most of the people who want gun control want to ban guns" which even that is incorrect.

Per the Gallup survey

Percentage happy with current gun control: 38%
Percentage who want stricter gun control: 47%

i.e. the total percentage of people who want some gun control = 85%

Percentage who want to ban handguns: 26%

So at best one could truthfully say that a small majority of those who want more gun control also want to ban hanguns.  That is not what you said.

It's pretty obvious that "people who want gun control" are people who want gun control from the context of where we are now - which is, they are in favor of more gun control. 

No, it is not obvious. Words have meaning (except perhaps to politicians).  Look, if you meant something different than what you said, it's ok to say so.  No reason to pick a fight.

The truth is we have significant gun control in this country now:  background checks, 3 days waiting period, etc.

It's interesting to note that that poll shows that even a few years ago when the assault weapon ban was still in place, the numbers were similar.

Your assertion that such a claim is "hysteria whipped up by gun nuts" is patently false.  Your own study proves it.

  Say what?  First the poll doesn't address that issue, second I never said anything about "gun nuts" Hell, some would say I'm  a gun nut because I own guns.  You're  creating straw men again.

I'm on the email list of several "Liberty Movement" organizations because I'm in favor of some of their causes. Almost daily, I get emails warning me that the "liberals" or "Obama" wants to take my guns away. But there is absolutely no facts to support that idea.  In fact, as far as I'm aware there has been no serious national effort to ban guns (other than assault weapons) in this country for decades.

The truth is the majority of our country is in favor of gun rights and the majority of gun owners are also in favor of reasonable regulations.   

Saying that gun owners are (mostly) opposed to any gun control laws would be just as false as your previous (but now clarified) statement that those in favor of gun control (mostly) want to really take your guns away.

It's these type of statements that are responsible for the lack of any sane political discourse in this country IMO.

[GK]

As far as gun control policy goes, yes, it is. Thank you.

And that arrogantly presumes that there is an objective standard for gun control with no room for varying laws by nationality.  I reject that idea on it's face.

Rubbish. There is broad public and even majority support in America for many proposed aspects of gun control legislation that we over here take entirely for granted. Under what "varying laws by nationality" unique to the USA make it sane to manufacture and distribute in the 10's of thousands lethal weapons for kiddies (just one possible example amongst many)?

[BradC]

God, there are some ugly people in this country.

Yes there are. Having said that, they probably make up the most vocal and outspoken 1%, same as any other country (like ours for example). The comparo is your 1% is an order of magnitude bigger than our 1% in unit terms (and probably 2 orders of magnitude in mass and/or volume) and therefore looks pretty bad when you make a superficial scan of the "media".

I *do* know what the US is like. I have family in Minnesota, California, Texas, Florida, South Carolina, Georgia and one state in the midwest I can't recall off the top of my head. I've spent a lot of time over there on long family visits and I've been lucky enough to meet with and talk to a broad spectrum of the population through both family and work. I do understand that it's the scum that floats to the surface, and it's a problem we get here (and it's everywhere else too). It's just that on a sheer volume comparo, your scum is much easier to point at and laugh.

As I said on another forum recently. I've seen things at Walmart (Sanford, Fl specifically) you can't un-see no matter how much you try to drink it away.

In general, forum members from the US are also pretty easy to rile up, because you take a light hearted jab as an attempt at a mortal wound.

To close out, don't worry about Rebel Wilson. Nobody here listens to what she has to say either. To be fair, we point and laugh when any actor (from any country) tries to get on a soap box. It's a case of "stand in the corner, keep your mouth shut and try to look pretty. That's your job".

[warp_foo]

As far as gun control policy goes, yes, it is. Thank you.

And that arrogantly presumes that there is an objective standard for gun control with no room for varying laws by nationality.  I reject that idea on it's face.

Rubbish. There is broad public and even majority support in America for many proposed aspects of gun control legislation that we over here take entirely for granted. Under what "varying laws by nationality" unique to the USA make it sane to manufacture and distribute in the 10's of thousands lethal weapons for kiddies (just one possible example amongst many)?

WTF?

[c4757p]

God, there are some ugly people in this country.

Yes there are. Having said that, they probably make up the most vocal and outspoken 1%, same as any other country (like ours for example). The comparo is your 1% is an order of magnitude bigger than our 1% in unit terms (and probably 2 orders of magnitude in mass and/or volume) and therefore looks pretty bad when you make a superficial scan of the "media".

True. Though maybe it'd be a good thing if more people would start considering these vocal, ugly assholes something to be ashamed of rather than an "eh, they're just a vocal minority" - might get some of them to shut up if the rest of us openly considered them to be a blemish on our nation...

As I said on another forum recently. I've seen things at Walmart (Sanford, Fl specifically) you can't un-see no matter how much you try to drink it away.

In general, forum members from the US are also pretty easy to rile up, because you take a light hearted jab as an attempt at a mortal wound.

Also true. We're not so used to lighthearted jokes of a political nature and tend to assume such things aren't jokes. I'm all for a bit of teasing, though certain subjects can get me a bit riled up too...

[GK]

As far as gun control policy goes, yes, it is. Thank you.

And that arrogantly presumes that there is an objective standard for gun control with no room for varying laws by nationality.  I reject that idea on it's face.

Rubbish. There is broad public and even majority support in America for many proposed aspects of gun control legislation that we over here take entirely for granted. Under what "varying laws by nationality" unique to the USA make it sane to manufacture and distribute in the 10's of thousands lethal weapons for kiddies (just one possible example amongst many)?

WTF?

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/apr/29/armed-to-the-milk-teeth-america-gun-toting-kids


80,000 rifles produced in 2008 alone.

[warp_foo]

As far as gun control policy goes, yes, it is. Thank you.

And that arrogantly presumes that there is an objective standard for gun control with no room for varying laws by nationality.  I reject that idea on it's face.

Rubbish. There is broad public and even majority support in America for many proposed aspects of gun control legislation that we over here take entirely for granted. Under what "varying laws by nationality" unique to the USA make it sane to manufacture and distribute in the 10's of thousands lethal weapons for kiddies (just one possible example amongst many)?

WTF?

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/apr/29/armed-to-the-milk-teeth-america-gun-toting-kids


80,000 rifles produced in 2008 alone.

I'm sure, in your mind, these kids are walking around armed and unsupervised.

Nope, not sensationalized at all.

[GK]

I'm sure, in your mind, these kids are walking around armed and unsupervised.

Um, you can be sure of whatever you want.

[zapta]

i.e. the total percentage of people who want some gun control = 85%

Gun control means different things to different people.

[LabSpokane]

But no, there is still nothing particularly backwards or deranged about gun culture in America that an outsider could comprehend:

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/apr/29/armed-to-the-milk-teeth-america-gun-toting-kids

First off. All those pictures are from Louisiana. And those kids are all CITY kids. No right-minded kid from the bayou would be caught with such a puny ass rifle. My nephew has a 25-06 that he got when he wasn't much older.

Second.  Hunting is what you DO in Louisiana. At least when you're not eating crawfish, eating boudin and jojos at Billy's gas station, in church or watching football (I think that counts as church in some parishes).  So of course these kids have rifles. How else are they going to learn to shoot?  You can take multiple deer a year there, so practice puts meat in the freezer.

And for all the complaining about guns by foreigners, some of the safest places in the U.S. are awash with guns. We have people from around the world come to our little slice of heaven and remark at how safe they feel.

[LabSpokane]

As far as gun control policy goes, yes, it is. Thank you.

And that arrogantly presumes that there is an objective standard for gun control with no room for varying laws by nationality.  I reject that idea on it's face.

Rubbish. There is broad public and even majority support in America for many proposed aspects of gun control legislation that we over here take entirely for granted. Under what "varying laws by nationality" unique to the USA make it sane to manufacture and distribute in the 10's of thousands lethal weapons for kiddies (just one possible example amongst many)?

WTF?

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/apr/29/armed-to-the-milk-teeth-america-gun-toting-kids


80,000 rifles produced in 2008 alone.

Hurray!  America's kids can get single shot 22 rim fires that actually fit them!  Power to the Prole!

When I was young, we had to learn on grown up size guns. That sucked.

[GK]

But no, there is still nothing particularly backwards or deranged about gun culture in America that an outsider could comprehend:

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/apr/29/armed-to-the-milk-teeth-america-gun-toting-kids

First off. All those pictures are from Louisiana. And those kids are all CITY kids. No right-minded kid from the bayou would be caught with such a puny ass rifle. My nephew has a 25-06 that he got when he wasn't much older.

Second.  Hunting is what you DO in Louisiana. At least when you're not eating crawfish, eating boudin and jojos at Billy's gas station, in church or watching football (I think that counts as church in some parishes).  So of course these kids have rifles. How else are they going to learn to shoot?  You can take multiple deer a year there, so practice puts meat in the freezer.

And for all the complaining about guns by foreigners, some of the safest places in the U.S. are awash with guns. We have people from around the world come to our little slice of heaven and remark at how safe they feel.

And what does any of what you wrote there have to do with the mass distribution of potentially lethal weapons that are at first glance indistinguishable from toys? About five percent of the Australian population is actively involved in hunting in some form or another and the majority of those are licensed firearm owners. There is a difference between embracing tradition and taking gun ownership to irresponsible and moronic extremes to defend some perceived intrinsic right.   

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jul/25/kids-guns-and-the-american-way

"Little Hank thus became one in a tally of what the makers of a Channel 4 documentary called Kids and Guns claim to be 3,000 American children who die each year from gun-related accidents. A recent Yale University study found that more than 7,000 US children and adolescents are hospitalised or killed by guns each year and estimates that about 20 children a day are treated in US emergency rooms following incidents involving guns."

[zapta]

And what does any of what you wrote there have to do with the mass distribution of potentially lethal weapons that are at first glance indistinguishable from toys? About five percent of the Australian population is actively involved in hunting in some form or another and the majority of those are licensed firearm owners. There is a difference between embracing tradition and taking gun ownership to irresponsible and moronic extremes to defend some perceived intrinsic right.   

#1 cause of death for Australian kids are cars. Petition your government to ban the mass distribution of cars.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/deaths/leading-causes-of-death/

It's fascinating how some internationals are obsessed with the US.  It's like stopping in a red light in a really nice sport car. The Honda Civic kid in the next lane always wants to prove that his car can launch faster. The wise thing to do is to let them feel good about their cars. Well, Australia is a faster car than the US.

[LabSpokane]

But no, there is still nothing particularly backwards or deranged about gun culture in America that an outsider could comprehend:

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/apr/29/armed-to-the-milk-teeth-america-gun-toting-kids

First off. All those pictures are from Louisiana. And those kids are all CITY kids. No right-minded kid from the bayou would be caught with such a puny ass rifle. My nephew has a 25-06 that he got when he wasn't much older.

Second.  Hunting is what you DO in Louisiana. At least when you're not eating crawfish, eating boudin and jojos at Billy's gas station, in church or watching football (I think that counts as church in some parishes).  So of course these kids have rifles. How else are they going to learn to shoot?  You can take multiple deer a year there, so practice puts meat in the freezer.

And for all the complaining about guns by foreigners, some of the safest places in the U.S. are awash with guns. We have people from around the world come to our little slice of heaven and remark at how safe they feel.

And what does any of what you wrote there have to do with the mass distribution of potentially lethal weapons that are at first glance indistinguishable from toys? About five percent of the Australian population is actively involved in hunting in some form or another and the majority of those are licensed firearm owners. There is a difference between embracing tradition and taking gun ownership to irresponsible and moronic extremes to defend some perceived intrinsic right.   

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jul/25/kids-guns-and-the-american-way

"Little Hank thus became one in a tally of what the makers of a Channel 4 documentary called Kids and Guns claim to be 3,000 American children who die each year from gun-related accidents. A recent Yale University study found that more than 7,000 US children and adolescents are hospitalised or killed by guns each year and estimates that about 20 children a day are treated in US emergency rooms following incidents involving guns."

Well, if all we have to do is make pink rifles to annoy you, so be it.   

And where do you get this 3000 children number?!  Our CDC says that the *total* number of deaths due to firearms accidents in the US for 2013 for ALL age groups is 505, 69 of whom were under age 14. 

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

In short, you're being manipulated with the same lies about firearms that we've had to put up with for decades.  These "facts" you're asserting just are not so.  Meanwhile, if you refer to the line below accidental firearms deaths, you'll see nearly 10X as many children drowned.  Where's the outrage?  You should call your congresscritter and tell her/him to pass a law!

Oh, that's right, you don't live here... 

============================================
ETA:

Do not interpret the above to mean I think that 69 or 505 are great numbers.  There is room for improvement.  I would love to see zero accidents.  But there damned sure aren't 3000 deaths.

[BradC]

It's fascinating how some internationals are obsessed with the US.  It's like stopping in a red light in a really nice sport car. The Honda Civic kid in the next lane always wants to prove that his car can launch faster. The wise thing to do is to let them feel good about their cars. Well, Australia is a faster car than the US.

Actually, it's more like watching a trainwreck. As much as you really want to look away you just can't.

[zapta]

It's fascinating how some internationals are obsessed with the US.  It's like stopping in a red light in a really nice sport car. The Honda Civic kid in the next lane always wants to prove that his car can launch faster. The wise thing to do is to let them feel good about their cars. Well, Australia is a faster car than the US.

Actually, it's more like watching a trainwreck. As much as you really want to look away you just can't.

You don't need to worry about us. Just enjoy your great country. You are the lucky one.

[Zero999]

And what does any of what you wrote there have to do with the mass distribution of potentially lethal weapons that are at first glance indistinguishable from toys? About five percent of the Australian population is actively involved in hunting in some form or another and the majority of those are licensed firearm owners. There is a difference between embracing tradition and taking gun ownership to irresponsible and moronic extremes to defend some perceived intrinsic right.   

#1 cause of death for Australian kids are cars. Petition your government to ban the mass distribution of cars.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/deaths/leading-causes-of-death/

I don't think anyone here is talking about banning guns completely but limiting the supply and use of guns to those who are competent enough to use them safely.

Guess what? This is what your government already does with cars! There's this thing called a driving licence and you have to pass a special test to obtain one and be in charge of a potentially lethal machine.

The same thing could be done with guns to minimise the risk of people getting hurt and killed. Of course criminals can still get their hands on guns, whether they have a licence or not (same with cars) but it could be made more difficult for them and I doubt all gun related deaths are intentional: some will be accidental.

Another big difference is cars are more important to the economy than guns. You may argue it's important to you to have a gun so you can defend yourself and enjoy pastimes such as hunting but you don't need a gun to take you to work.

[zapta]

Guess what? This is what your government already does with cars! There's this thing called a driving licence and you have to pass a special test to obtain one and be in charge of a potentially lethal machine.

Mojo Chan, do you say that around here one needs to have a driving license in order to own a car or to operate one a private road? I am not sure thats' the case.

Anyway, please mind your own great country.

[Halcyon]

#1 cause of death for Australian kids are cars. Petition your government to ban the mass distribution of cars.

Yep! Agreed! We need to get tougher on road discipline (not speeding) with tougher penalties on mobile phone use, red lights, drink/drug driving etc... It would also solve Sydney's traffic problem and at the same time reward decent drivers. This focus on "speed kills" in Australia is totally backwards. Drivers spend more time staring at their speedos than the road when they come across a mobile or fixed speed camera. Focus should be on lane discipline; Keeping a safe distance behind, travelling with the flow of traffic and giving way where appropriate.

Ditch the demerit point system. Warning for the first offence, licence suspension for the second offence then finally, licence cancellation for a subsequent offence of the same type (where they must re-apply and go through the same tests as a learner driver). That'll soon get moron drivers off our roads, reduced the death toll, shorten travel times, reduce insurance costs and free up emergency services.

If only they were as tough on our Traffic Legislation as they are with our Firearms legislation....

[zapta]

#1 cause of death for Australian kids are cars. Petition your government to ban the mass distribution of cars.

Yep! Agreed! We need to get tougher on road discipline (not speeding) with tougher penalties on mobile phone use, red lights, drink/drug driving etc... It would also solve Sydney's traffic problem and at the same time reward decent drivers. This focus on "speed kills" in Australia is totally backwards. Drivers spend more time staring at their speedos than the road when they come across a mobile or fixed speed camera. Focus should be on lane discipline; Keeping a safe distance behind, travelling with the flow of traffic and giving way where appropriate.

Ditch the demerit point system. Warning for the first offence, licence suspension for the second offence then finally, licence cancellation for a subsequent offence of the same type (where they must re-apply and go through the same tests as a learner driver). That'll soon get moron drivers off our roads, reduced the death toll, shorten travel times, reduce insurance costs and free up emergency services.

If only they were as tough on our Traffic Legislation as they are with our Firearms legislation....

If this plan matches the values, culture and goals of your country than good for you.

[Mechanical Menace]

Hurray!  America's kids can get single shot 22 rim fires that actually fit them!  Power to the Prole!

When I was young, we had to learn on grown up size guns. That sucked.

I think you're missing the point of the criticisms there, it's not that there're kiddy sized rifles for people to take their children hunting or target shooting with, it's that they make so many to look like straight up toys. When it's illegal to make a toy gun look like a real gun but fine to make real guns look like toy guns you're asking for more Tamir Rice's. I'm shocked and glad that sort of tragic accident is rare, but once is too often.