Can Fandoms Fix Tech's Gender Gap?

[Zero999]

I'll say it one more time, please stay on topic or this thread gets locked.

NP, we can move the Nazi discussion to another thread. Luckily it goes well with any topic.

;-)

Lol, most of discussions tend to end with with the Nazis. 

If wage negotiation is sexist then perhaps the same is true for all performance reviews? What a load of rubbish!

The thing is it would be great to have more female engineers. I am also fairly left wing in my political views compared to some people here. Government subsidised maternity/paternity leave is good thing. Universal healthcare is great.

I dislike feminism because it's no longer about not discriminating against women but being pro-female above anything else: male, transgender etc. and doesn't allow for the possibility that women are different than men, even though they're equal. I'd like to see the whole movement replaced with something more positive and constructive.

Ideally we shouldn't need to have childcare. One person should be able to earn enough to support their partner and their children, until they're all of school age, then one parent can work part time. We need to encourage healthy relationships between men and women which the modern feminist movement seems to be very good at destroying.

[dannyf]

If wage negotiation is sexist then perhaps the same is true for all performance reviews?

Any assessment of anyone will inherently be unfair to someone (unless everyone is equally assessed), thus a violent breach for the "equality" crowd.

[rolycat]

If wage negotiation is sexist then perhaps the same is true for all performance reviews? What a load of rubbish!

The funny thing is that the only people who claimed it was sexist were MRAs. Pao is just saying that it's a crap way of determining wages because it favours attributes that have nothing to do with job performance. She wants Reddit to be a meritocracy.

Not entirely sure what an MRA is, please define your jargon. Men's Rights Activist, perhaps?

Take a look at this:

Refusing to negotiate with potential employees doesn’t create a “level playing field.” It simply punishes those women who are capable of negotiating effectively. Negotiation is a job skill, period. If an employee doesn’t have that skill, frankly, why should they be paid as well as an employee who does? Negotiations don’t stop at salaries: Employees often have to negotiate with clients, with colleagues and even with competitors. it’s a product features, release dates, etc. You have to negotiate with other players, whether they’re other employees or clients and customers. If you’re not capable of negotiating a salary, you may have a hard time negotiating elsewhere, and that makes you less of an asset to any firm.

Several people in this thread have made the points outlined in the quote above, and you have dismissed them all. The difference is that this comes from an article written by a woman on a website for working women.

The article is titled: "Reddit Nixing Salary Negotiations Isn’t Feminist. It’s Sexist", and happens to be the first hit if you google Hero999's phrase "if wage negotiation is sexist".

It makes an interesting read, but you have already demonstrated your ability to ignore women's views about sexism in favour of your own so I suppose it's unlikely to make any impression.

[Zero999]

Yes, I think he means Men's Rights Activist. A group of people who are seen as misogynistic.

If wage negotiation is sexist then perhaps the same is true for all performance reviews? What a load of rubbish!

The funny thing is that the only people who claimed it was sexist were MRAs. Pao is just saying that it's a crap way of determining wages because it favours attributes that have nothing to do with job performance. She wants Reddit to be a meritocracy.

I dislike feminism because it's no longer about not discriminating against women but being pro-female above anything else: male, transgender etc. and doesn't allow for the possibility that women are different than men, even though they're equal. I'd like to see the whole movement replaced with something more positive and constructive.

You are confusing feminism with something the MRAs made up.

Ideally we shouldn't need to have childcare. One person should be able to earn enough to support their partner and their children, until they're all of school age, then one parent can work part time.

I don't think having both parents work is necessarily a bad thing, if support is there. The Swedish model demonstrates how well it can work. The key is always equality, it facilitates good parenting.

If you like Sweden that much then why not go and live there?

Getting rid of wage negotiation is just an excuse to pay people less, in the name of equality. It's very capitalist. They want to employ people who just do what they're told and are incapable of negotiating things such as timescales with their managers.

Good parenting is when the parents care for their children, not the state or nannies.

[Corporate666]

The funny thing is that the only people who claimed it was sexist were MRAs. Pao is just saying that it's a crap way of determining wages because it favours attributes that have nothing to do with job performance. She wants Reddit to be a meritocracy.

Every single one of us is always selling, which means we are always negotiating.  To say "negotiation has nothing to do with job performance" is fundamentally wrong - like saying "communication skills have nothing to do with job performance".  It also suggests that negotiation itself is not a merit when it most certainly is.   

The reality is... it's not about merit... it's about lowering the value placed on some things and raising the value placed on others based on what suits the individual.  Everyone likes to think they are just as good as everyone else - when nothing could be further from the truth.  We should have the same opportunity, not the same outcome.  It's up to each of us to determine the outcome... and sometimes, smart people try hard and still fail.  Life isn't fair... and it's not fair that a tall, handsome man earns more money than a short ugly guy does - but that's just life. 

Anyone who doesn't realize we are always selling, all the time, has quite a bizarre view of the corporate world, IMO.

[Corporate666]

Getting rid of wage negotiation is just an excuse to pay people less, in the name of equality. It's very capitalist. They want to employ people who just do what they're told and are incapable of negotiating things such as timescales with their managers.

Good parenting is when the parents care for their children, not the state or nannies.

I don't think it's capitalist, I think it's socialist.

The idea that the employer solely decides what pay will be is idiotic... I guess candidates are free not to accept the job, but that means no high flyers are ever going to work at Reddit.  If you are a standout performer, head and shoulders above the rest... you are going to want your pay to reflect that.  Why waste your time interviewing at Reddit when they have already said they will not negotiate pay and they will decide what the job is worth?  I wouldn't waste my time on that crap.

It ensures they will have a stream of mediocre candidates who are willing to capitulate and work for what the employer determines their value to be.  I have to wonder if Pao negotiated her salary when coming on board... I'm going to presume she did. 

And this is the problem when people try to impose their world view on others... if she doesn't want to negotiate, that's fine... but she is dicking over a whole bunch of other people in the process, simply based on her biases and beliefs.  The same biases and beliefs that let her to believe - and be proven wrong in a court of law - that her former employer was out to get her.

Then need to fire that woman yesterday.

[Zero999]

Getting rid of wage negotiation is just an excuse to pay people less, in the name of equality. It's very capitalist. They want to employ people who just do what they're told and are incapable of negotiating things such as timescales with their managers.

Good parenting is when the parents care for their children, not the state or nannies.

I don't think it's capitalist, I think it's socialist.

Why do you see it as socialist?

I see not being allowed to negotiate with one's managers as capitalist, under the guise of socialism. Don't forger it's workers who negotiated with their employers and won the rights we take for granted today.

[Corporate666]

Getting rid of wage negotiation is just an excuse to pay people less, in the name of equality. It's very capitalist. They want to employ people who just do what they're told and are incapable of negotiating things such as timescales with their managers.

Good parenting is when the parents care for their children, not the state or nannies.

I don't think it's capitalist, I think it's socialist.

Why do you see it as socialist?

I see not being allowed to negotiate with one's managers as capitalist, under the guise of socialism. Don't forger it's workers who negotiated with their employers and won the rights we take for granted today.

Because it tries to equalize and attempts to allocate a fixed amount of remuneration without regard to performance or individual quality.   I see it both ways, and the specific term doesn't really matter... but we agree that refusing to negotiate with candidates is a bad thing all around.  The only people who benefit are those who would not be good negotiators anyway, but don't want to "feel" (there's that word again) that they got less.

I say 'feel', because I find it unlikely the company would set higher pay offers and then refuse to negotiate, but rather would make similar offers as before - but just say they won't negotiate.

Of course, the whole "we don't negotiate" thing is total bullshit, because if a superstar salesman walks in who can bring $10MM of ROI, but their standard offering was $200k for a salesman when this guy wants $500k... it would be an appalling breach of fiduciary duty not to negotiate a competitive wage with that salesman because of a foolish belief that negotiation makes some people feel left out and so they don't do it.

She needs to be fired.  Like, yesterday.

[EEVblog]

Every single one of us is always selling, which means we are always negotiating.  To say "negotiation has nothing to do with job performance" is fundamentally wrong - like saying "communication skills have nothing to do with job performance".  It also suggests that negotiation itself is not a merit when it most certainly is.   

Totally agree. That is why the Reddit no negotiation thing is so stupid.
In almost any job, but especially technical ones you have to negotiate all the time. Even programmers often have to sell and negotiate their new features, the way they coded it, the way it works, who's going to work on what etc.
The CEO is just on some one-eyed feminist fueled agenda, doesn't matter if it makes any practical sense or not, or is good for the company or not, they will invent whatever reason is necessary to make it happen.

[EEVblog]

She needs to be fired.  Like, yesterday.

And take up a job in public service where they have fixed pay grades for everyone. Of course, she'll hate that because it's a pay grade range, and you can still somewhat negotiate which level you enter on.

[Zero999]

For example, there is a company that makes data logging equipment for industrial use. A couple of years ago one of their engineers negotiated really hard to get their battery costs down. They ended up with some really nasty lithium batteries that soon started to fail. Not just fail to work, they started to produce hydrogen. Inside a sealed metal enclosure. With electronics in it. They basically built a bomb, and those things were deployed by many clients all over Europe in public places.

They had to do a recall, of course, with special instructions to call their bomb disposal unit if the case looked at all buckled. So actually in that case negotiating hard backfired, quite literally.

Why did the engineer have to negotiate with the supplier so hard on cost? No doubt it was their manager who wanted them to keep costs down. It's possible if they'd done a better job at negotiating with their manager, they wouldn't have had to drive such a hard bargain with the supplier.

[zapta]

People with different skills, including negotiation skills, have different market values. That is, what pay level they can achieve from potential employers. What that CEO is doing is ignoring the market value and creating her own utopian market scale with her notion of 'fairness'. If her shareholders let her do it I don't see a problem with it. It's their money. Consider it as a charity for the wimps.

[Corporate666]

So if you do badly in the negotiation do you then do a bad job for your employer too? That's the only way I can see wage negotiation being pertinent to most engineering. There are a few jobs, like say negotiating with suppliers, where it helps. Even then I wouldn't say that wage negotiation is a good way to measure that particular skill.

Negotiation is part of sales, and we are always selling.  Every one of us is selling every day, which means we are negotiating every day.  "Negotiating a salary during a job interview" is not a skill in and of itself, it is the greater skill of negotiation that dictates whether you are good or not at negotiating a salary.  And if you are bad at it, that will absolutely affect other areas of your work without question, regardless of what job you do - whether you are the janitor or a secretary or the CEO.  You are dismissing it simply because it is a skill you say you don't have, therefore you are presenting it as unimportant.  That is human nature - just like how short guys pretend women don't prefer tall guys and such.

For example, there is a company that makes data logging equipment for industrial use. A couple of years ago one of their engineers negotiated really hard to get their battery costs down. They ended up with some really nasty lithium batteries that soon started to fail. Not just fail to work, they started to produce hydrogen. Inside a sealed metal enclosure. With electronics in it. They basically built a bomb, and those things were deployed by many clients all over Europe in public places.

They had to do a recall, of course, with special instructions to call their bomb disposal unit if the case looked at all buckled. So actually in that case negotiating hard backfired, quite literally.

I really think you might just be trolling at this point.  You really want to claim negotiation is not important because of an anecdotal story of a guy who pressed to save money and got substandard parts?  And you are complaining above about the guy appealing to authority???

Even if your story is true as presented - which I don't believe it is - it was not a failure of negotiation at all, unless the negotiation included a caveat from the supplier that the batteries would not be functional. 

The story is equally as ridiculous as someone presenting a counterpoint to the topic of this thread that they know a woman who got into STEM due to fandom, and then washed out and had to turn to prostitution, and therefore STEM women fandom causes prostitution.

We've entered the realm of the farcical at this point.

[Corporate666]

Because it tries to equalize and attempts to allocate a fixed amount of remuneration without regard to performance or individual quality.

You seem to have misunderstood what Reddit is doing. They said they will make what they consider a fair offer, not the same offer. If your experience and skills merit more, they will offer more. Past performance and individual quality are absolutely taken into account.

No, I have not misunderstood at all.  Reddit claims they will come up with the compensation package and will not negotiate it.  First off, that claim is clearly bullshit and any company who makes such a claim needs to ditch their shit businessperson who came up with the idea.  But having the salary set at the employer's sole discretion eliminates high flyers from being compensated for their superior performance.

[rolycat]

And if you are bad at it, that will absolutely affect other areas of your work without question, regardless of what job you do - whether you are the janitor or a secretary or the CEO.

Please explain how your ability to negotiate a higher salary will positively impact your performance as a janitor. Give realistic examples if possible.

You have carefully edited out the part where Corporate666 states that he is referring to the greater skill of negotiation in general, and then reframed your argument.

Bad mojo-chan.

If you are a janitor whose work is suffering due to poor equipment or excessive workloads, the ability to negotiate better conditions with your supervisor is highly likely to positively impact your performance.

[tom66]

And if you are bad at it, that will absolutely affect other areas of your work without question, regardless of what job you do - whether you are the janitor or a secretary or the CEO.

Please explain how your ability to negotiate a higher salary will positively impact your performance as a janitor. Give realistic examples if possible.

The janitor/maintenance guy at the company I work with is responsible for negotating with suppliers on cleaning (for example, window cleaning) and supplies, if that counts.

I'm sure you must have had an opportunity in your job to ask a supplier for samples, or for a price quote.  Sure, the purchasing department may make the final negotiations, but you're being silly if you don't think that negotiation is important in the modern work place.  Especially as an engineer.

[Corporate666]

But having the salary set at the employer's sole discretion eliminates high flyers from being compensated for their superior performance.

You keep saying that but never explain why you think it is true. Surely if Reddit want high flyers they will simply have to pay what they are worth or not get them, so clearly it would be dumb of them to offer less. So why wouldn't they just offer enough to hire the people they need? Surely market forces will require them to.

Having to pay a price that is acceptable to both company and candidate... and if you don't offer enough, the candidate won't come to work for you.

Hmmm, if only they had a word for that sort of process whereby both parties come to an agreement on whether the latter will work for the former.

[Corporate666]

And if you are bad at it, that will absolutely affect other areas of your work without question, regardless of what job you do - whether you are the janitor or a secretary or the CEO.

Please explain how your ability to negotiate a higher salary will positively impact your performance as a janitor. Give realistic examples if possible.

This is what you don't get.  ALL of us are selling, ALWAYS.  Every day, every time we interact with anyone (pretty much), we are selling.  And negotiation is part of selling.

If you don't understand that - then I don't feel it is my responsibility to explain and provide examples that you accept.  You've shown a penchant for dismissing other people's examples and proofs when it doesn't suit your MO, and if you don't think something as fundamental as "we are always selling - all of us" is true, then it's never going to click for you, regardless of what examples are.  But as a thought experiment, ask yourself... is a janitor ever asked for their opinion or feedback, or are any janitors allowed to give it?  If so, sales and negotiations are taking place.  You do this stuff every day - you just don't realize it.  And being bad at it affects your life in incalculable ways.

[Zero999]

Why did the engineer have to negotiate with the supplier so hard on cost? No doubt it was their manager who wanted them to keep costs down. It's possible if they'd done a better job at negotiating with their manager, they wouldn't have had to drive such a hard bargain with the supplier.

That's my point really. Being good at negotiating a higher wage doesn't mean much, at best it's one of a number of skills necessary for most jobs. It's a dumb way to evaluate candidates, especially since the wage negotiation usually only starts after an offer has been made. Then it's down to the lame old "whoever gives a figure first loses".

Being able to negotiate with one's manages is a sign of self-confidence which isn't required for negotiating with a supplier. Perhaps if the engineer had more self-confidence he wouldn't have allowed his manager to bully him into driving down costs so low?

[Corporate666]

The janitor/maintenance guy at the company I work with is responsible for negotating with suppliers on cleaning (for example, window cleaning) and supplies, if that counts.

Good example, but it can be even more fundamental than that...

Boss: Hey, we have someone coming on Monday to deliver a new machine - can you mop the shop floor so the forklift doesn't get hung up on anything?

Bad Negotiator Janitor: Sure boss <sulks off feeling angry that he already had a full workload and now he will have to work late on a Friday night>

Good Negotiator Janitor: Well, I've just started <other job> that won't be done by 5pm... but I could come in this weekend if it's important <and add kudos points to my reputation and get time-and-a-half pay for my hassle>

One can conceive of countless examples - but we are all selling every day, which means we are all negotiating every day.  If someone sucks at negotiating, then that's their problem.  It's a fixable problem and if they choose not to learn about the skill of negotiation and improve at it, then it is not the rest of society's responsibility to coddle them and ensure they don't suffer for their lack of motivation to improve themselves... it's their responsibility.

[timofonic]

The janitor/maintenance guy at the company I work with is responsible for negotating with suppliers on cleaning (for example, window cleaning) and supplies, if that counts.

Good example, but it can be even more fundamental than that...

Boss: Hey, we have someone coming on Monday to deliver a new machine - can you mop the shop floor so the forklift doesn't get hung up on anything?

Bad Negotiator Janitor: Sure boss <sulks off feeling angry that he already had a full workload and now he will have to work late on a Friday night>

Good Negotiator Janitor: Well, I've just started <other job> that won't be done by 5pm... but I could come in this weekend if it's important <and add kudos points to my reputation and get time-and-a-half pay for my hassle>

One can conceive of countless examples - but we are all selling every day, which means we are all negotiating every day.  If someone sucks at negotiating, then that's their problem.  It's a fixable problem and if they choose not to learn about the skill of negotiation and improve at it, then it is not the rest of society's responsibility to coddle them and ensure they don't suffer for their lack of motivation to improve themselves... it's their responsibility.

I'm very bad at any kind of negotiation, it's part of my syndrome and I hate it.

Despite my motivation, it's hard to change that behavior in a world that still encourages an slavery attitude.

Fortunately I improved a bit after some years. But not enough. I learned to avoid to be exploited a bit, not enough.

And change some kind of personal issue can be very hard, specially if you are unable to pay tons of money
 one of those rare gems known as Good Therapists.


I think your words are a bit harsh you have no clue how fucked up an human mind can me. And I don't deserve it, so please refrain about your nonsense.

[Corporate666]

I'm very bad at any kind of negotiation, it's part of my syndrome and I hate it.

Despite my motivation, it's hard to change that behavior in a world that still encourages an slavery attitude.

Fortunately I improved a bit after some years. But not enough. I learned to avoid to be exploited a bit, not enough.

And change some kind of personal issue can be very hard, specially if you are unable to pay tons of money
 one of those rare gems known as Good Therapists.


I think your words are a bit harsh you have no clue how fucked up an human mind can me. And I don't deserve it, so please refrain about your nonsense.

You don't need to pay a lot of money to a therapist to solve whatever underlying issues that make you a bad negotiator.  You've already stated that you recognize the problem, have made steps to overcome it, have made progress and still have a ways to go.  You're already 2/3rds of the way there.  You can solve these kinds of problems by immersing yourself in a role that requires you to confront these issues head on.

When I was young, I was shy and nervous.  I was terrible at public speaking, and I was terrible with conflict.  If someone came to me with a complaint, I'd want to solve it - even if I got the short end of the stick.  I was also not great at sales - I felt like a jerk bothering people with stuff that they hadn't asked me about first.

I tackled the problems head on.  When I was a teenager, I got a job selling vacuum cleaners door to door.  I dealt with angry people, rejection, negotiations and sales all day long.  I hated it with a passion, but it was an amazing learning experience at 18 years old.  I joined a group that forces you into public speaking.  I asked to go on sales calls and learned from successful salesman and negotiators and managers.  And in a pretty short time - problem solved.  I love public speaking and I do well with it.  I am good in negotiations and sales and I even enjoy the thrill of the hunt.  And I overcame my issues with conflict and I don't let such issues get to me personally.

Yes, it is hard to overcome such issues, but anyone can do it and there is no excuse not to do it.  And, yes, I do understand how f*cked up a human mind can be, because we all suffer from various phobias and social problems - and I was no exception.

Own the problem - and fix it.  Or complain about it online... whatever floats your boat   But only one of those courses of action will improve your future.

[Zero999]

I'm very bad at any kind of negotiation, it's part of my syndrome and I hate it.

Despite my motivation, it's hard to change that behavior in a world that still encourages an slavery attitude.

Fortunately I improved a bit after some years. But not enough. I learned to avoid to be exploited a bit, not enough.

And change some kind of personal issue can be very hard, specially if you are unable to pay tons of money
 one of those rare gems known as Good Therapists.


I think your words are a bit harsh you have no clue how fucked up an human mind can me. And I don't deserve it, so please refrain about your nonsense.

You don't need to pay a lot of money to a therapist to solve whatever underlying issues that make you a bad negotiator.  You've already stated that you recognize the problem, have made steps to overcome it, have made progress and still have a ways to go.  You're already 2/3rds of the way there.  You can solve these kinds of problems by immersing yourself in a role that requires you to confront these issues head on.

When I was young, I was shy and nervous.  I was terrible at public speaking, and I was terrible with conflict.  If someone came to me with a complaint, I'd want to solve it - even if I got the short end of the stick.  I was also not great at sales - I felt like a jerk bothering people with stuff that they hadn't asked me about first.

I tackled the problems head on.  When I was a teenager, I got a job selling vacuum cleaners door to door.  I dealt with angry people, rejection, negotiations and sales all day long.  I hated it with a passion, but it was an amazing learning experience at 18 years old.  I joined a group that forces you into public speaking.  I asked to go on sales calls and learned from successful salesman and negotiators and managers.  And in a pretty short time - problem solved.  I love public speaking and I do well with it.  I am good in negotiations and sales and I even enjoy the thrill of the hunt.  And I overcame my issues with conflict and I don't let such issues get to me personally.

Yes, it is hard to overcome such issues, but anyone can do it and there is no excuse not to do it.  And, yes, I do understand how f*cked up a human mind can be, because we all suffer from various phobias and social problems - and I was no exception.

Own the problem - and fix it.  Or complain about it online... whatever floats your boat   But only one of those courses of action will improve your future.

You're right that if you recognise you have a problem, it's good as it makes you aware of it and you can work on it.

However bear in mind the person you're responding to said they have a syndrome which is a major contributing factor. Now we don't know what this condition is, I'd probably guess it's autism related. Although the disability may make dealing with others difficult, the lack of confidence will make this worse.

Unfortunately there will be people who have a disability which make life difficult for them, whether it be blindness, inability to concentrate, dwarfism etc. Although I agree people should make allowances and help, there will be the odd person who takes advantage - life's a bitch I'm afraid but don't give up.

Therapy for this sort of thing should be covered by public health care which is an investment. If the therapy is a success, the patient can get a well paid job and pay the money back to the government in taxes and national insurance.

[tom66]

Having said that I think maybe we are not as far apart as you think. I am asking how wage negotiation specifically is relevant, not how general negotiation is. My example of the guy who negotiated exploding batteries was meant to show that the very narrow definition of trying to get the absolute best possible monetary deal isn't always the best strategy.

Of COURSE engineering isn't always about the lowest cost. Just as it is not about the best quality parts or the quickest way to do something.

This is a fundamental pillar of engineering and project management. Cheap, fast, good: pick any two.  Showing you have these skills to an employer shows you are more valuable as an employee. Which is why wage negotiation is a good skill to have both for you and the employer. If an employer is willing to negotiate a higher salary than the normal offering they obviously believe you are above average. Being able to negotiate only helps that appeal.

[tom66]

Or they just get pushed into offering more than you are worth, and then you fail to live up to expectations or they pile on the pressure to perform. It's like the start-up I mentioned, if you over-sell yourself it is just going to screw you later on.

Boo-friggin-hoo, it's a private company, that's the risk of market capitalism when you have imperfect information about another party.

You perform to the job's specifications, going above and beyond where necessary and viable (e.g. project deadline.) I hardly think you're screwing yourself if the company overpays YOU. If they expect more than what they were asking for in the interview/job description, the onus is on them, not the employee.