Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?

[nctnico]

I gather you haven't played directly with Bitcoin. I would actually give you $20 NZD worth of bitcoin just so you could experience first hand what it is like, but like I said earlier it would cost me about $20 USD to send it to you. Then it would cost you $20 USD each time you spend any part of it somewhere else.

Are you sure the transaction costs are so high? My Litecoin wallet lets me choose how much I pay for a transaction (can be zero) and the default seems to track the exchange rate.

[Freelander]

the latest research.............

[hendorog]

I gather you haven't played directly with Bitcoin. I would actually give you $20 NZD worth of bitcoin just so you could experience first hand what it is like, but like I said earlier it would cost me about $20 USD to send it to you. Then it would cost you $20 USD each time you spend any part of it somewhere else.

Are you sure the transaction costs are so high? My Litecoin wallet lets me choose how much I pay for a transaction (can be zero) and the default seems to track the exchange rate.

It's a tradeoff between how much you pay and how long it takes to process the transaction.

For my 'consolidating transaction', which I sent to myself, combined 9 small amounts into 1 larger amount I chose a low fee. That took a week or so to process at 65 satoshi per byte. The cost of the fee in real money was about 15 or 20 USD roughly.

So it is possible to get a transaction processed with a low fee. It just takes a very long time - not ideal when the value is so volatile. Because I paid myself the volatility didn't matter. It is apparently possible that the transaction might have never been processed and my money stuck in limbo, or it could 'time out'. Not ideal either if you paying someone for something.

As I write this the fees have shot up even more. They were around 400 satoshi/byte, now it is 780. So the fees are now double what they were for a fast transaction.

Fee pricing ladder - helps you figure out what fee to use:
https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/

Historical fee graphs:
https://bitcoinfees.info/

[suicidaleggroll]

I gather you haven't played directly with Bitcoin. I would actually give you $20 NZD worth of bitcoin just so you could experience first hand what it is like, but like I said earlier it would cost me about $20 USD to send it to you. Then it would cost you $20 USD each time you spend any part of it somewhere else.

Are you sure the transaction costs are so high? My Litecoin wallet lets me choose how much I pay for a transaction (can be zero) and the default seems to track the exchange rate.

He's focusing on bitcoin only.  Other cryptocurrencies have different transaction rates.

[CatalinaWOW]

This concept has been explained before by multiple people on this thread, but it is worth repeating and explaining in slightly different terms.

None of the existing "crypto-currencies" can function as a currency for the simple reason that they are appreciating rapidly.  A currency is a tool to mediate transactions, and if it doesn't work for all types of transactions it is a limited or useless tool.  Now consider lending/borrowing money using one of these "crypto-currencies".  As a borrower am I willing to pay back a borrowed bitcoin with a bitcoin in the future (plus some fraction of a bitcoin as interest?)  Of course not, because the value is presumed to have appreciated greatly.  Same problem from the lenders end.  How much do I have to discount the payback to convince someone to borrow money and then pay interest on it?

Economists argue about the exact numbers, but any currency that changes value by more than a few percent a year becomes a terrible tool for mediating transactions and rapidly falls out of favor.  The most common problem is inflationary change (currency value dropping) and has been demonstrated in many places.  The Deutchmark of the Weimar Republic.  The Boliviano of the 1960s.  The Zimbabwe dollar a few years ago.  Deflationary change is also possible and the US dollar after 1929 is an example.  The real world examples of deflationary currencies are all associated with terrible economic dislocations even though the deflation involved was far weaker than the deflation of bitcoin.

[Galenbo]

To quote Adam Chalmers? (@adam_chal)
Bitcoin was supposed to demonstrate the power of a true free market. Instead it's full of scams, rent-seekers, theft, useless for real purchases and accelerates climate change. Mission accomplished,[/]

Ok, but an un-free market shows the same symptoms.
Let's compare freeness of the market with the levels of the symptoms the quote shows.
I expect an inverse proportional relationship, with a highly unlinear behavior at the extremes.

Difficult one is to define who will be the policeman to keep the free market "free"
I know a lot of organisations who declare to have good intentions on that ...

[djsb]

I've not read through the whole of this thread but maybe my thread on HashGraph would be useful (Warning: The video's are around an hour long each but well worth persevereing with).

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hashgraph/

[james_s]

To quote Adam Chalmers? (@adam_chal)
Bitcoin was supposed to demonstrate the power of a true free market. Instead it's full of scams, rent-seekers, theft, useless for real purchases and accelerates climate change. Mission accomplished,[/]

Ok, but an un-free market shows the same symptoms.
Let's compare freeness of the market with the levels of the symptoms the quote shows.
I expect an inverse proportional relationship, with a highly unlinear behavior at the extremes.

Difficult one is to define who will be the policeman to keep the free market "free"
I know a lot of organisations who declare to have good intentions on that ...

That all has little to do with the currency of choice and more to do with human nature. Greed is a natural human trait, there will always be some out there who are driven to acquire more, and who will gladly take advantage of or step on anyone in their path to get it. An entirely free market with no controls whatsoever will eventually result in a small number of people possessing a majority of the assets. 

[WastelandTek]

I've not read through the whole of this thread but maybe my thread on HashGraph would be useful (Warning: The video's are around an hour long each but well worth persevereing with).

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hashgraph/

lost me at "patented"

next

[kcozens]

I've thought about getting on board but it seems exceedingly complicated. I see videos about wallets and trading crypto currencies but haven't yet found the basic information covering how you use real world currency to buy crypto currency. I found a few exchanges that say they handle the main half dozen ones people hear about (mainly Bitcoin and its derivatives, Ethereum, and LiteCoin) but seldom any other digital currencies. I recently discovered a web page that had a list of over 1200 crypto currencies. With so many it seems all a bit like one is gambling where you are more likely to lose money than win.

[Halcyon]

I've thought about getting on board but it seems exceedingly complicated. I see videos about wallets and trading crypto currencies but haven't yet found the basic information covering how you use real world currency to buy crypto currency. I found a few exchanges that say they handle the main half dozen ones people hear about (mainly Bitcoin and its derivatives, Ethereum, and LiteCoin) but seldom any other digital currencies. I recently discovered a web page that had a list of over 1200 crypto currencies. With so many it seems all a bit like one is gambling where you are more likely to lose money than win.

I guess it depends on how you approach it. I simply signed up for an account with an Australian market and I can buy and sell crypto easily. Any withdrawals I make are in my bank account the following day. No, I can't walk down the road and buy a coffee with Ripple, but I can easily turn that Ripple into cash.

I think any crypto which is trying to replace regular currency is doomed to fail, you may as well buy baseball cards. To understand each Crypto, you need to read about the specific crypto you have in mind. Just because you may understand how Bitocoin works, doesn't meant that knowledge translates over to others. If you look at the 2nd largest crypto, Ripple (XRP), it actually has purpose and is much more than "just a coin". It's like comparing cash to loaves of bread. Both can be traded but both have very different applications.

There are a lot of useless coins out there that someone created "just because" that do very little (and I'll lump Litecoin and Bitcoin derivatives into that basket).

If you're looking somewhere to start, might I suggest reading up about Ripple, Ethereum, and IOTA. All three have some very real-world applications (and in the case of Ripple, huge corporate backing). I would personally avoid Bitcoin, it really doesn't "do" much, it's over-priced, over-hyped and you chances of making any real money (as an investment) are slim, yet your chances of losing significant sums of cash are huge. There is a rumour that Coinbase will be adding Ripple to its offerings very soon (despite what you might read on the internet, nothing has been confirmed for any official source, but they'd be silly not to).

[EEVblog]

I've thought about getting on board but it seems exceedingly complicated. I see videos about wallets and trading crypto currencies but haven't yet found the basic information covering how you use real world currency to buy crypto currency. I found a few exchanges that say they handle the main half dozen ones people hear about (mainly Bitcoin and its derivatives, Ethereum, and LiteCoin) but seldom any other digital currencies. I recently discovered a web page that had a list of over 1200 crypto currencies. With so many it seems all a bit like one is gambling where you are more likely to lose money than win.

Depends upon the country you are in.
You basically have the transfer money into the exchanges bank account, and it really is best if that is local exchange in your country.
In Oz for example you might use Coinspot.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

On Board - No.

Bored - Yes

[mariush]

Sites like Coinmarketcap can tell you which coins (and tokens) are most "popular" and how they're trending:

Link: https://coinmarketcap.com/

Wallets like Exodus or Jaxx can handle multiple wallets through simple interfaces but you could in principle also make separate wallets for each ... let's say first 20 coins from that list.

[hwj-d]

Look at this,
some thoughts about the Blockchain-AI and the makers behind:



and actually, what happens with this AI (->Tyler) when it become really dangerous
(warning, some toxic politicals 'Tyler is Q Anon' inside, for those, who follows Trumps "Storm" edit: at 4chan, 8chan, right now):

[Marco]

I think one of the greatest evils of cryptocoins is how many researchers it has caused to sell their soul. I'm sure they rationalize it, humans are good at that ... but in the end why they connect their name to a new coin is not because they think they can make a contribution, but because their name will give the ICO value and they get coins at the ground floor.

It's like HFT, absorbing our greatest minds to utterly waste their time.

[IanMacdonald]

I just wish I'd bought a few when it started. Though, the fact that you could become a millionaire by so ridiculously simple a route does make a mockery of the value of real money, and also a mockery of the work ethic. 

[wraper]

I mined some mooncoin 4 years ago. Lost like 2/3 of that on collapsed exchange because did not bother to take that out for some time as it was barely worth anything. But last month is started to grow rapidly and doubled in price just in last day. Now I have worth of $17k  and it keeps growing.

[Vtile]

* Hopefully too many didn't loose his/her savings on this latest bubble. 

I just did read a new term for cryptos ... kryptonite currencies.  Bigger fools game and that the energy production need to double if the popularity of the cryptos continues as now.

I'll stay in traditional investments.

[suicidaleggroll]

* Hopefully too many didn't loose his/her savings on this latest bubble. 

I'm still up about 400%... :shrug:

[NiHaoMike]

* Hopefully too many didn't loose his/her savings on this latest bubble. 

I'm still up about 400%... :shrug:

I already made a lot more than I invested on mining equipment. I did have one crypto (Perk) drop to practically nothing not too long from a peak. I only lost about $15 worth of coins that were waiting to be exchanged, since I followed an "expert's" suggestion to exchange often.

What I do see is that mining is becoming more of a fun thing to do than a great investment. At least on the last peak I experienced, I got something to show for it!

[CNe7532294]

Gonna be glad when the dust settles. Perhaps now I can finally get some good new video cards at $399 instead of $699. Remember only put in what you can afford to lose. 


As for cryptocurrency itself. It'll rebound but without bitcoin. Look forward to a brand thats a little bit more institutionally backed/invested in the 2nd phase as ironic as that sounds.

[Vtile]

That curve is nice, it actually represents pretty accurately all the bubbles I have seen so far (y2k to this date).

[james_s]

A cryptocurrency will succeed when someone figures out a way to make the value relatively stable. People won't be making much money from trading the currency itself at that point but it will be potentially useful as a method of transferring value, which is what a currency is designed to be.

[NiHaoMike]

A cryptocurrency will succeed when someone figures out a way to make the value relatively stable. People won't be making much money from trading the currency itself at that point but it will be potentially useful as a method of transferring value, which is what a currency is designed to be.

Several of the coins I have mined had their values moderated by exchanges, but if a few exchanges control it, how decentralized is it really?