Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!

[default0.0player]

So, I really suspect just: having a lot of power, sensitive pedal, subconscious unnoticed adjustment of the pedal uphill or slight slowdown on slopes you don't notice because you are concentrated on traffic, because you really can't support your observation with hard facts.

It could also be the opposite, speed gets unnoticed. I sometimes drive on a winding road where the speed limit is 60km/h, during uphill most drive slightly lower than 60km/h while during downhill they drive higher than 60km/h, whether they are in EV or ICE. I use the gas pedal(uphill) and engine braking(downshift, downhill) to control exactly 60km/h, but I often feel like a weirdo as I constantly overtake during uphill or being overtaken at downhill.

Electric motor controller typically controls the torque/power delivered to the motor proportional to the gas pedal times the motor's rated torque power. The motor's torque curve is often a straight line from 0km/h to middle speed, then goes y=1/x at higher speeds, Half throttle is y/2, etc.
ICE is different as the torque/power curve is only on full throttle. Partial throttle is not torque times the throttle opening. The engine torque is mostly a function of the manifold pressure. when the engine is at max RPM, half throttle means 0.5atm pressure. However at low RPM, even 20% throttle may get you 0.8atm since the engine runs slower there's less vacuum. The transmission compensate that (assume you drive an automatic) for comfort and fuel efficiency. At low throttle the engine delivers mid to high torque at low RPM and low torque at high RPM, the gearbox upshifts to keep the engine at low RPM to increase efficiency, the higher torque at low RPM is compensated by the gear ratio, the torque on wheels are low. At mid throttle the engine gives nearly max torque at low RPM but half torque at max RPM, the gearbox shifts to mid RPM and with a higher reduction ratio to give higher torque to the wheels. At high throttle the gearbox just uses the lowest possible gear. In conclusion the gearbox's computer keeps the engine sufficiently loaded, the gear ratio selection compensate the engine's partial throttle torque characteristics to give a linear-ish feeling.

Here's a torque of an ICE at partial throttle.

Unfortunately I couldn't find the torque curve of an electric motor at partial throttle, they are either max torque curve or without a controller.

[Siwastaja]

It could also be the opposite, speed gets unnoticed.

Yeah, sensible people in sensible countries do not overfixate on speed, it's counterproductive. Finland's different - we have 10-30 km/h slower speed limits than everywhere else, with social pressure that you overspeed by 5-10 km/h, with 200EUR fine starting at 7km/h overspeed, so it's a delicate game. You need to drive exactly 6 km/h over the limit. Easy with cruise control. With this magical value, you don't need to overtake much, and will not be overtaken. Without cruise control, it makes you fixate to your speedometer. Which is actually more risky, than sometimes accidentally overspeeding by 11 km/h, so approaching the normal driving speeds of normal countries.

[CatalinaWOW]

Have only read the last three or four pages of this thread, but there are a few of points I haven't seen mentioned.  On both of my EVs 1 pedal driving is a choice in a setup menu.   When not selected I find the driving experience much like driving an automatic transmission ICE.  My wife happens to prefer 1 pedal driving, so that is what I use when in her car.  It takes some getting used to, but is generally OK.   My vehicle remains in the conventional mode.

One bad thing about one pedal driving is associated with cruise control.  If cruise control is disabled the car immediately brakes to achieve the speed that pedal position wants.  I seldom can get it right for a smooth transition.  This could be avoided by limiting acceleration magnitude when cruise is disabled, but I can see circumstances where this would be inappropriate.

A note for those aiming for a "perfect" relationship between deceleration and brake light operation.  Traditional ICE vehicles, and I suspect most if not all modern ICE vehicles activate the brake lights based on a switch sensing the brake pedal position, and is ideally adjusted to light when the pads barely touch.   After all of the variations in vehicle design and maintenance this has at best a very loose correlation with more than the sign of the acceleration.  Note also that there are quite a few "two footed drivers" of ICE vehicles, with one foot lightly on the brake and one on the accelerator pedal.  This often results in flashing or inconsistent brake light activation.   While deceleration based brake lights might be a good safety feature, this is a motor vehicle issue, not an EV issue. 

[woody]

Note also that there are quite a few "two footed drivers" of ICE vehicles, with one foot lightly on the brake and one on the accelerator pedal.  This often results in flashing or inconsistent brake light activation.   

Really? I would not have guessed that. Left foot on the brake, right foot on the accelerator? Bloody dangerous if you ask me. Cannot imagine this is ever taught during driving lessons. Maybe driving an automatic they would get away with it, but boy are they in for a surprise if they ever change into a car with a clutch and stickshift 😀

While deceleration based brake lights might be a good safety feature, this is a motor vehicle issue, not an EV issue.

I think this is mandatory now on new vehicles. As is flashing those lights when emergency braking.

[TimFox]

Driver’s education in the US, at least in my youth, explicitly warned against two-feet pedal driving, even with automatic transmission (clutch-less).
A current problem, crying for a technical solution, is confusion of brake and accelerator pedals by older drivers in panic mode, with obvious outcomes, using only one foot.

[CatalinaWOW]

I agree that both driver training and many states operating rules/regulations in the US are against two foot driving.  I don't know statistics on what percentage of people do this, but have been a passenger with a number of drivers that do, have discussed it with others in social situations and followed cars whose brake light response is hard to explain otherwise.  I have even heard defense of the practice as a method to reduce reaction time for braking.

All this is not to defend the practice, just pointing out that it is not rare.

[woody]

My surprise came from the fact that in NL the vast majority (>92%, 2024) of drivers still get their license for cars with manual transmissions, the reason being that a license for an automatic is only valid for an automatic, where the license for a manual is valid for both types of transmission. I could not see how anyone, having learned to drive a stick shift, would ever use their left foot to brake.

But in an automatic it would be possible.

[Ranayna]

I could not see how anyone, having learned to drive a stick shift, would ever use their left foot to brake.

But in an automatic it would be possible.

Well...
I vividly remember the first time i drove an automatic. The reflex of hitting the clutch in preparation to downshift is *strong*. I was driving manual for ~15 years at that point.
Well, i learned the brakes work fine. And luckily i was alone, not on the main road yet, and therefore not very fast yet. 

I still have to fight this instinct sometimes. My main car is still manual, and i only rarely drive automatic.

[PlainName]

The reflex of hitting the clutch in preparation to downshift is *strong*.

Yep, and not only that but the  left foot is used to exerting much greater pressure than the right one, so hitting the brakes with the left foot can be a nose-into-steering wheel event. I quickly learned to tuck my left foot under the seat to keep it out of the way.

[woody]

I still have to fight this instinct sometimes. My main car is still manual, and i only rarely drive automatic.

I often change between an automatic M3 and a manual Mini. The mistake I see myself make moving from M3 to Mini is that I sometimes forget to use the Mini's clutch when coming to a stop, killing the engine. The car is smart enough to restart the engine as soon as I find the clutch so this silly mistake usually slips by unnoticed by others
From Mini to M3 I just place my left foot firmly on the footrest on the left side of the well and keep it there. So far I never experienced the 'brake with the clutch foot' error.

[default0.0player]

Here's another ICE torque curve at partial throttle. At below half throttle, the throttle roughly controls the engine speed, the faster the engine RPM the lower the torque

Finally found one for electric motor.

and yes, it's linear

[Siwastaja]

Finally found one for electric motor.

It's a patent, so just an example with values that might be misleading on purpose. Google is your friend, e.g. reverse-engineered Tesla model 3 pedal map:

Showing almost constant pedal position -> torque relationship, despite people saying it's difficult to drive; but with funny "boost" at very low speeds, to give snappier start.

Increasing torque with higher speed would counteract the square relationship of aerodynamic drag and thus make it behave more like "acceleration pedal" than "torque pedal", at least on flat surface. For hills, actual acceleration feedback would be needed, though.

Unless I'm missing something, but I don't think I am.

[Marco]

Given all the dots all over the place and the fact the electric motor could hit the line almost instantly, it could be a long term target with shorter term targets based on other effects (such as pedal depression derivative).

Also on flat terrain at constant weather it would be really easy to mix up cause and effect.

[Siwastaja]

(such as pedal depression derivative).

It's an interesting idea. But which way would you do it? Overshoot the response - but EVs are very "snappy" already to the point you need to be quite careful with the pedal - similarly, for regen in slippery conditions (ESP/ABS will of course react fast and communicate with the inverter to reduce regen, but it's still better not to cause the slip to begin with), exaggerating the effect from lifting you foot up seems a colossally bad idea.

So it would need to go the other way - reduce the snappiness with a derivative, basically a stabilizing term? Maybe someone does it? Maybe it's a better low-delay alternative to just filtering the signal - stabilize with derivative, reducing the human doing overshoot without causing actual delay (bulk of the signal goes through directly). Or maybe they use Kalman filter or something.

[default0.0player]

Showing almost constant pedal position -> torque relationship, despite people saying it's difficult to drive; but with funny "boost" at very low speeds, to give snappier start.

So the throttle control is indeed linear, partial throttle gives partial torque/power.

The funny boost is not about snappier start, it's because the car only has one pedal driving mode. When the speed is too low the motor can't regen. At 8km/h the duty cycle becomes zero, the motor becomes dynamic braking.

The throttle mapping is 0~20% regen, 20~100% accelerate. If the car is below 8km/h, a <20% throttle will give nothing and as the driver pushing the pedal harder there will be sudden acceleration as the pedal crosses 20%. To avoid the deadzone, the throttle has to be mapped 0~100% accelerate at 0km/h, 0~10% regen 10%~100% accelerate at 4km/h and 0~20% regen, 20~100% accelerate at >8km/h.