Tesla & other EV's and hybrids are dangerous!

[soldar]

Interesting that China, where this will potentially have the most effect on car makers and, rightly or wrongly, we tend to associate with lax standards, is the first country to take decisive action on this nonsense. Whilst the US safety regulators and Europe are still 'thinking about' doing something. Time for the regulators to get up to speed and grow teeth.

China mandated in 2006 all new mobile phones support charging via a USB Type-A port, effective from June 14, 2007.

The EU mandated the same in 2022.

I have no idea about this in the US.


China was the first to ground all Boeing 737 max.

[thm_w]

Interesting that China, where this will potentially have the most effect on car makers and, rightly or wrongly, we tend to associate with lax standards, is the first country to take decisive action on this nonsense. Whilst the US safety regulators and Europe are still 'thinking about' doing something. Time for the regulators to get up to speed and grow teeth.

They were incredibly lax until a few years ago.
https://insideevs.com/news/466968/chinese-ev-tested-germany-crash-safety/ "the Suda SA01 does not have to pass any crash tests to get certified. It is cheap because it does not present airbags, ESP, or ABS."

[soldar]

Interesting that China, where this will potentially have the most effect on car makers and, rightly or wrongly, we tend to associate with lax standards, is the first country to take decisive action on this nonsense. Whilst the US safety regulators and Europe are still 'thinking about' doing something. Time for the regulators to get up to speed and grow teeth.

I am of the opinion that in the EU we have too much bureaucracy and overregulation. we have a bunch of bureaucrats far removed from real life telling us what we should be doing.

This case with door handles might be quite clear cut as it costs nothing and adds safety but requiring too much has the effect of pricing some people out of the market. Every requirement should be analyzed carefully for cost and benefits. Requiring too much just means some people cannot afford a car... which means they can not opt to some jobs where they would need a car, etc.

[Randy222]

I am of the opinion that in the EU we have too much bureaucracy and overregulation. we have a bunch of bureaucrats far removed from real life telling us what we should be doing.

Mass amnesty is next, just like they did in Spain. The demise of countries before your very eyes.

Most of the good big thinkers have long passed, now the world is left with mostly patients running the insane asylum. With what Moltbook shows us, things will get way worse at accelerated rate.

[tom66]

The Model 3/Y door handle could presumably be made safe if it was commonly used (so people knew how to work it as a random person trying to save someone from a car) -and- it is mechanically connected to the locks in the door, so that no electrical power is required to actually unlock the doors.  I think the latter is true on Model 3/Y for at least the front doors, not sure about the rear.  But the interior door locks do require power, at least for the rear, and that is unforgivably bad design.

The benefit to these door handles is aerodynamics, but I'd be surprised if all four handles made a difference in drag greater than 1%.  So it's mostly about looking sleek/sexy rather than actually being good at the job.

[Siwastaja]

The benefit to these door handles is aerodynamics

No, it's the impression of aerodynamics, and the early wow factor ("oh, this is something new, aerodynamics I guess!"). 1% difference surely is possible to achieve, but only if compared to artificially bulky classic design. Like, it is entirely possible to do normal mechanical door handle design which is aerodynamically as good. Like, having a small "dent" in the door for the handle isn't automatically a bad thing, golf balls have those to improve the aerodynamics. All of this can be simulated today to arrive a design which is safe, easy to use, looks nice, and is probably within 0.3% of drag energy use compared to a perfectly smooth (no handles at all) reference.

[Psi]

A very small improvement in aerodynamics adds up quickly over the entire driving range of the vehicle on a single charge/tank.

The door handle design will have been done for aerodynamics as the primary reason.
Sure, the gain isn't huge but every little bit adds up quickly.

The golf ball thing only works if you have many many dents over a larger area where the turbulence can all interact and cancel out creating a net positive. The effect doesnt apply to a single dent. A smooth surface will always be better than a single dent.

[woody]

A very small improvement in aerodynamics adds up quickly over the entire driving range of the vehicle on a single charge/tank.

The door handle design will have been done for aerodynamics as the primary reason.
Sure, the gain isn't huge but every little bit adds up quickly.

I agree with that. But it still leaves the question why on our M3 the outside front door handles electrically operate the lock, while inside the car the same doors can also be opened mechanically, using the emergency levers. Could not have been too difficult to let the fancy, flush handles (that I like design-wise, btw) also operate mechanically. Stupid choice IMO.

[Psi]

yeah. I'm not a fan of having opendoor-by-wire from a safety standpoint.
If there had been a big advantage for the user going to a opendoor-by-wire system then I would have been fine with it, but i cant think of any user advantage.
It does make the door mechanism simpler, but that isn't an advantage for the user.

[Ranayna]

[...] Like, having a small "dent" in the door for the handle isn't automatically a bad thing, golf balls have those to improve the aerodynamics.

The Mythbusters did an episode on exactly that.
They slathered a car with modeling clay and did a mileage test. Afterwards they cut golfball-like dimples into the clay (and even thought of dumping the removed weight into the trunk), and did another mileage test. The dimples measurably increased the mileage, but i don't remember the value.
And that in a, in full Mythbusters style, not really controlled test scenario

[Electrodynamic]

The benefit to these door handles is aerodynamics

No, it's the impression of aerodynamics, and the early wow factor ("oh, this is something new, aerodynamics I guess!"). 1% difference surely is possible to achieve, but only if compared to artificially bulky classic design. Like, it is entirely possible to do normal mechanical door handle design which is aerodynamically as good. Like, having a small "dent" in the door for the handle isn't automatically a bad thing, golf balls have those to improve the aerodynamics. All of this can be simulated today to arrive a design which is safe, easy to use, looks nice, and is probably within 0.3% of drag energy use compared to a perfectly smooth (no handles at all) reference.

I agree and used to do a lot of work with Solidworks CFD designing and testing wind turbines.

The effect of a flat door handle compared to a properly designed normal handle is effectively zero. The drag is so small compared to the under carriage, suspension and wheel wells it's not even worth mentioning. So the flat handle is nothing more than a gimmick imo.

Your also correct that the dent in a door handle is irrelevant. The air flow streamlines expand into the dent then converge on exit with little or no drag. What does generate a lot of drag is any turbulent airflow. One would think the front end of a Tesla would be a train wreck so far as drag as concerned but it isn't so much because the air is in compression. The higher air pressure diverts the air ahead of itself around the body. This is not true on the sides and rear of the car at a lower air pressure which tends to produce more turbulence.

[thm_w]

I agree with that. But it still leaves the question why on our M3 the outside front door handles electrically operate the lock, while inside the car the same doors can also be opened mechanically, using the emergency levers. Could not have been too difficult to let the fancy, flush handles (that I like design-wise, btw) also operate mechanically. Stupid choice IMO.

Stupid from a safety perspective, for sure.

But its cheap, simple, reliable, and easier to rain seal. If you want to optimize cost you'd eliminate all mechanical interconnections, because the electronic door latch mechanism will already need to exist.
See inside here: youtu.be/Z6uLFjKGE3s?t=930
Used price $20: https://ingenext.ca/products/tesla-model-3-door-handle-outer-passive-right-hand-black-1780885-00-a?_pos=10&_sid=d61dcfa67&_ss=r

And you could argue other features like preventing leaving a child in the car is important too (38 deaths per year).

[woody]

Also the need to lower the window when opening a door, because the window rims disappeared for easthetic and/or aerodynamic reasons, makes an electric solution more viable.

[default0.0player]

Interesting that China, where this will potentially have the most effect on car makers and, rightly or wrongly, we tend to associate with lax standards, is the first country to take decisive action on this nonsense. Whilst the US safety regulators and Europe are still 'thinking about' doing something. Time for the regulators to get up to speed and grow teeth.

China also banned one pedal driving mode by default. The mode is still there but the driver has to opt-in. This is to prevent unfamiliar drivers from unintended sudden acceleration from pedal misapplication.

[tom66]

I just bought our second EV, which is a Polestar 2... The regen on that is way heavier than my ID.3. I think in the last 200 miles I've touched the brake pedal maybe a couple of times... you can come to a complete stop without pressing the brake at all.  It has a "lighter" mode which is more like the ID.3, where the last 5-10 mph requires the use of the brake.

[Psi]

Yep, properly implemented regen means your brake pads really don't wear at all.
Which makes sense, you want all that energy going into the battery.

[Electrodynamic]

I just bought our second EV, which is a Polestar 2... The regen on that is way heavier than my ID.3. I think in the last 200 miles I've touched the brake pedal maybe a couple of times... you can come to a complete stop without pressing the brake at all.  It has a "lighter" mode which is more like the ID.3, where the last 5-10 mph requires the use of the brake.

My wife was giving me heck yesterday for driving like an old man trying to maximize braking energy on our 25 Tucson hybrid. The trick seems to be to break uniformly watching the charge rate. It's only the last 20 feet where the generator rpm drops to a lower level where it becomes ineffective and the brakes take over.

Now when I drive the F150 I get irritated. All the braking energy is completely wasted and I get nothing back. It just seems stupid that all that braking energy is wasted.

[default0.0player]

I just bought our second EV, which is a Polestar 2... The regen on that is way heavier than my ID.3. I think in the last 200 miles I've touched the brake pedal maybe a couple of times... you can come to a complete stop without pressing the brake at all.  It has a "lighter" mode which is more like the ID.3, where the last 5-10 mph requires the use of the brake.

Lowering the regen setting doesn't reduce efficiency at all. The regen setting only dictates the amount of regen power when off the gas pedal. Full regen is always available via the brake pedal. Regen is only temporarily disabled when ABS is active (emergency braking)

[woody]

As an M3 driver I never understood why on various EVs the amount of regen is adjustable. Why would you want that if your right foot on the accelerator is all you need to control the amount of braking/regen?

[tom66]

As an M3 driver I never understood why on various EVs the amount of regen is adjustable. Why would you want that if your right foot on the accelerator is all you need to control the amount of braking/regen?

Probably a case of getting used to it.  Some EVs have lighter regen due to having a smaller battery or motor.  Seems my ID.3 can regen up to 60kW, but the Polestar can do 100kW.  Setting a lower limit makes the Polestar drive a bit more like other EVs. 

But I do agree that if you learn modulation of the pedal then it's not a big deal. 

[Psi]

Yes, heavy regen tends to freak some people out. 
It's personal preference.

Maybe some wife-factor going on too. They won't sell as many if the wife won't let you get it because she hates how the breaking feels during a test drive.

Definitely something you get use to, but first impressions matter.
Always best to have the option.

[default0.0player]

Always best to have the option.

Indeed.

It's personal preference.

Not quite, see below.

As an M3 driver I never understood why on various EVs the amount of regen is adjustable. Why would you want that if your right foot on the accelerator is all you need to control the amount of braking/regen?

Sorry to tell you, but that's because the regen on the Tesla Model 3 is inferior than the 1st gen Nissan Leaf or Toyota Prius. On the majority of EVs and Hybrids, there are sensors to detect the travel of the foot brake. The deeper you press the brake pedal, the more regen the motors have. Friction brakes will only engage when the braking command exceeds the max regen. Adjusting the regen setting or activating one pedal driving does nothing to efficiency, it only changes the throttle pedal mapping. The Tesla Model 3 does not have this hardware, regen braking cannot be mapped on the brake pedal, earlier models did have regen options however use a lower setting reduces efficiency because regen power cannot be increased by the brake pedal. Later models removed the option entirely to make the EPA energy efficiency rating better.

[JPortici]

Yes, heavy regen tends to freak some people out. 

Also the driver behing you.
Not sure if it's still the case, but in the past many models did not engage the braking lights when regenerating

[Siwastaja]

Friction brakes will only engage when the braking command exceeds the max regen.

You can hear this a lot, but I'm not fully buying it. The friction brake system is simple and mechanical for safety. I don't think it's easy to tune so that no friction braking happens at all before max regen. Would require both careful tuning from the manufacturer, and careful use by the driver, to "feel" at which point friction braking steps in.

Then again, the difference would be small. Small amount of friction braking helps prevent brake discs from rusting and getting stuck.

[woody]

As an M3 driver I never understood why on various EVs the amount of regen is adjustable. Why would you want that if your right foot on the accelerator is all you need to control the amount of braking/regen?

Sorry to tell you, but that's because the regen on the Tesla Model 3 is inferior than the 1st gen Nissan Leaf or Toyota Prius. On the majority of EVs and Hybrids, there are sensors to detect the travel of the foot brake. The deeper you press the brake pedal, the more regen the motors have. Friction brakes will only engage when the braking command exceeds the max regen. Adjusting the regen setting or activating one pedal driving does nothing to efficiency, it only changes the throttle pedal mapping. The Tesla Model 3 does not have this hardware, regen braking cannot be mapped on the brake pedal, earlier models did have regen options however use a lower setting reduces efficiency because regen power cannot be increased by the brake pedal. Later models removed the option entirely to make the EPA energy efficiency rating better.

Nothing to be sorry about; I never drove in either the Leaf or the Prius so I would not know their superiority 

What I do know is that in an M3 you hardly ever need to touch the brake pedal. Hardly ever means that I am really surprised if I need to use it. Usually only because something unexpected happens in front of me.

IIRC the M3 brakes/regenerates with a maximum of 70kW, depending on SOC and temperature. This 70kW of braking power is controlled with the accelerator. All the way up: maximum braking and regen, a bit down: less braking and less regen. In a couple of hours driving you learn when to let go of the pedal and how far to let go and from that moment on the brake is hardly ever used. @PSI: This (at least in our case) is also well understood and liked by my better half.

So, while the M3 might be called inferior for not having sensors in the brake pedal Tesla solved this entire problem by letting me have precise control of the amount of braking/regen without ever moving my foot from the accelerator to the brake pedal. As I always say, there is a lot of negative to be said about an M3, but its drive system is not one of them.